The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
I'm far from a CTC apologist, but I don't think that the above post paints a realistic picture of what awaits graduates of the Wings programme.
The first couple of years after training will probably be something of a struggle financially, but there's still a reasonable chance (although by no means nailed on!) that less than a decade after starting training, you'll be a captain on a package worth well over £100k a year.
An untagged course at CTC represents a significant risk, but prospects are still not bad.
The first couple of years after training will probably be something of a struggle financially, but there's still a reasonable chance (although by no means nailed on!) that less than a decade after starting training, you'll be a captain on a package worth well over £100k a year.
An untagged course at CTC represents a significant risk, but prospects are still not bad.
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Well count your blessings because there are many who have spent loads and no opportunity- at least you are flying and making ends meet- getting relevant experience and start.........
Just my opinion
Just my opinion
AMS, yes I agree. A few guys I trained with aren't employed and some guys/girls I've met along the way have been waiting a very long time for their opportunity as I'm sure you have too. Same old thing though, quite a few go into training with their eyes shut about the reality of paying stuff back.
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Generation EasyJet training programme
"How would you as a commercial pilot for EasyJet contribute towards making EasyJet Europes preferred shot haul airline?"
Any ideas what they want to know?
Any ideas what they want to know?
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This is a remarkably interesting thread when you read right from the beginning.
I'd like to contribute some facts as a Wings cadet who got placed with a partner airline earlier this year.
Over the last year and at the moment the market is strong. It is advertised than things like max 10 hours of remedial training, first series LSTs, no more than three ATPL fails is the standard for the hold pool.
I know people who have been placed who have violated these requirements.
I'm not saying it will be like this forever. But at the moment things are not as black and white as they perhaps used to be. If you show the passion and attitude to keep going CTC will appreciate that and help you to keep going. Believe me as I know first hand what eau de PR/2, as mentioned early on in the original wings thread, smells like!
The training is very good, when you get to the end of training and look back you can really appreciate the vertical integration of airline SOP philosophy from day one. Bournemouth has some brilliant instructors. JS who runs CTC NZ is a fantastic HoT. NZ have no problems with handing out extra flights, at their own cost, to trainees who perhaps haven't flown in a week with wx and are losing currency. Trainees can abort solo flights for things like wx and do the lesson again (y-flighting) free of charge, no questions asked unless you're being silly and it was CAVOK or something. They do genuinely want the best for you, they want you to get that first time CPL and they want to see you placed with an airline.
There is risk. I know several people who struggled too much and either left CTC or dropped off wings onto the modular Take-Off programme. If this happens in NZ/AZ it is if you have so much remedial training that the number of failed hours you have is 10% or more of your total hours. At that point CTC UK review you and decide to continue you on wings, offer you the performance protection and a ticket home, or offer a new contract for the modular take-off programme. I know people this has unfortunately happened to. One moved to take-off. He's now flying an A320.
The fact of the matter is every situation is different and it very much depends on the individual person. Your attitude and commitment will go a long way in their desire to help you.
It's not perfect. Admin isn't great. With it being such a large organisation it is inevitable that there are some unpleasant members of staff = Play the game and keep your head down. Everybody moans about scheduling. They do a lot of standardisation work but there are still discrepancies between instructors which can be annoying and detrimental.
If a prospective trainee asked me for advice....apply for an MPL. You will have a much, much easier life without CPL/IR/Hold Pool/Airline assessment worries. Qatar gets you the most income the quickest; go there, live sensibly and pay off the loan as soon as possible. Quids in. It is very rare for an MPL trainee to be terminated.
Keep your head down. Ask plenty of questions. Don't listen to the Chinese whisper monkey business, Clearways is like a KGB network of whispered half-truths. Play the bloody game. Having been through the process myself, the fact is that in 2016 in this economy, the vast majority of trainees got placed.
I know from friends still there that two new airlines have dipped into the hold pool recently, including an A330 operator. Most seem to go to easyJet who take a few every month but there absolutely are other airlines who come in now and then. Time and place.
It's a long, stressful, arduous process. You need to sit down and be honest with yourself and 100% believe that you really want to be an Airline Pilot because if that commitment isn't there, you will find the course very challenging and at times overwhelming. If you do, people are getting airline assessment dates hours after getting hold pool confirmation emails. There are jobs. It won't always be like this but this year and touch wood the next few years, the going is good.
Good luck.
I'd like to contribute some facts as a Wings cadet who got placed with a partner airline earlier this year.
Over the last year and at the moment the market is strong. It is advertised than things like max 10 hours of remedial training, first series LSTs, no more than three ATPL fails is the standard for the hold pool.
I know people who have been placed who have violated these requirements.
I'm not saying it will be like this forever. But at the moment things are not as black and white as they perhaps used to be. If you show the passion and attitude to keep going CTC will appreciate that and help you to keep going. Believe me as I know first hand what eau de PR/2, as mentioned early on in the original wings thread, smells like!
The training is very good, when you get to the end of training and look back you can really appreciate the vertical integration of airline SOP philosophy from day one. Bournemouth has some brilliant instructors. JS who runs CTC NZ is a fantastic HoT. NZ have no problems with handing out extra flights, at their own cost, to trainees who perhaps haven't flown in a week with wx and are losing currency. Trainees can abort solo flights for things like wx and do the lesson again (y-flighting) free of charge, no questions asked unless you're being silly and it was CAVOK or something. They do genuinely want the best for you, they want you to get that first time CPL and they want to see you placed with an airline.
There is risk. I know several people who struggled too much and either left CTC or dropped off wings onto the modular Take-Off programme. If this happens in NZ/AZ it is if you have so much remedial training that the number of failed hours you have is 10% or more of your total hours. At that point CTC UK review you and decide to continue you on wings, offer you the performance protection and a ticket home, or offer a new contract for the modular take-off programme. I know people this has unfortunately happened to. One moved to take-off. He's now flying an A320.
The fact of the matter is every situation is different and it very much depends on the individual person. Your attitude and commitment will go a long way in their desire to help you.
It's not perfect. Admin isn't great. With it being such a large organisation it is inevitable that there are some unpleasant members of staff = Play the game and keep your head down. Everybody moans about scheduling. They do a lot of standardisation work but there are still discrepancies between instructors which can be annoying and detrimental.
If a prospective trainee asked me for advice....apply for an MPL. You will have a much, much easier life without CPL/IR/Hold Pool/Airline assessment worries. Qatar gets you the most income the quickest; go there, live sensibly and pay off the loan as soon as possible. Quids in. It is very rare for an MPL trainee to be terminated.
Keep your head down. Ask plenty of questions. Don't listen to the Chinese whisper monkey business, Clearways is like a KGB network of whispered half-truths. Play the bloody game. Having been through the process myself, the fact is that in 2016 in this economy, the vast majority of trainees got placed.
I know from friends still there that two new airlines have dipped into the hold pool recently, including an A330 operator. Most seem to go to easyJet who take a few every month but there absolutely are other airlines who come in now and then. Time and place.
It's a long, stressful, arduous process. You need to sit down and be honest with yourself and 100% believe that you really want to be an Airline Pilot because if that commitment isn't there, you will find the course very challenging and at times overwhelming. If you do, people are getting airline assessment dates hours after getting hold pool confirmation emails. There are jobs. It won't always be like this but this year and touch wood the next few years, the going is good.
Good luck.
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My two cents...
Been there, done that as well. Got placed extremely quickly a few years ago, straight into perm position with really cool airline. Moved since then. Debt paid off, nice car, bought my first home.
BUT
The truth will be what you want to hear, of course it will. As a wannabe you won't believe CapitanDuckhead because it is not what you want to hear. You will find then comments like tech_log and voilà, meets your expectations and will become reality for you.
BUT
The truth, from outside, is really between good and evil. It is between comments like CapitanDuckhead and tech_log. Yes, many guys were, are and will be placed. Yes a good number will pursue good careers in aviation. But many guys just don't. I know cases. People bankrupted because they did not "meet the standard". People jobless after three-four years, finally finding their first aviation job well far from home.
Oh, but they did not meet the standard! Well, they were not stupid people. Not all of them. I have seen brilliant and smart people fall into this category, and I have seen people that would only fly solo around Hamilton to avoid getting lost get their A320 position. Yes, some of them it was down to attitude towards the whole thing, but some did not. If CTC do not like you, then you are... well you know the words.
CTC is far from what you might think, and the whole process is far more complex than what you would even imagine. They want your money and you are treated as a little customer. Yes, there is a reward at the end for some of the cadets, still not very pleasant experience. Been there, done that.
Conditions afterwards are tough as well nowadays. When I joined, mostly perm positions and no TR (or reduced price). Nowadays... oh well. But that does not get better if you train somewhere else.
That's the reality, and let me say something else. Wannabes, do not discard "bitter" comments just because you think the guys is trolling you or he was just an idiot and he could not fly. Some of them might be, but many are not. It is extremely difficult to hear bad things from recently graduated cadets in public, because CTC are really good at playing games. They will not ever tell you "you are not good enough, bye bye". They will always make you believe "maybe one day", so that you hold on to that and that way they avoid bad press. Yes, I know guys like this. Many years and still dreaming with that e-mail with an invite for an interview. So, take very seriously and investigate further any comments of unhappy cadets, especially if you are thinking about mortgages/getting your parents involved in order to do this.
Good luck to you all
Been there, done that as well. Got placed extremely quickly a few years ago, straight into perm position with really cool airline. Moved since then. Debt paid off, nice car, bought my first home.
BUT
The truth will be what you want to hear, of course it will. As a wannabe you won't believe CapitanDuckhead because it is not what you want to hear. You will find then comments like tech_log and voilà, meets your expectations and will become reality for you.
BUT
The truth, from outside, is really between good and evil. It is between comments like CapitanDuckhead and tech_log. Yes, many guys were, are and will be placed. Yes a good number will pursue good careers in aviation. But many guys just don't. I know cases. People bankrupted because they did not "meet the standard". People jobless after three-four years, finally finding their first aviation job well far from home.
Oh, but they did not meet the standard! Well, they were not stupid people. Not all of them. I have seen brilliant and smart people fall into this category, and I have seen people that would only fly solo around Hamilton to avoid getting lost get their A320 position. Yes, some of them it was down to attitude towards the whole thing, but some did not. If CTC do not like you, then you are... well you know the words.
CTC is far from what you might think, and the whole process is far more complex than what you would even imagine. They want your money and you are treated as a little customer. Yes, there is a reward at the end for some of the cadets, still not very pleasant experience. Been there, done that.
Conditions afterwards are tough as well nowadays. When I joined, mostly perm positions and no TR (or reduced price). Nowadays... oh well. But that does not get better if you train somewhere else.
That's the reality, and let me say something else. Wannabes, do not discard "bitter" comments just because you think the guys is trolling you or he was just an idiot and he could not fly. Some of them might be, but many are not. It is extremely difficult to hear bad things from recently graduated cadets in public, because CTC are really good at playing games. They will not ever tell you "you are not good enough, bye bye". They will always make you believe "maybe one day", so that you hold on to that and that way they avoid bad press. Yes, I know guys like this. Many years and still dreaming with that e-mail with an invite for an interview. So, take very seriously and investigate further any comments of unhappy cadets, especially if you are thinking about mortgages/getting your parents involved in order to do this.
Good luck to you all
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I did try not to be sycophantic and overly positive.
Wannabees need to understand that there are times on that course that you will
hate the place.
It is sad, and scary, that your £100,000 loan hangs on the balance of 4 hours of flight time, in the CPL and IR tests. Fail once and you're still in with a shot. Fail twice - no chance.
More than one bad day at AQC - no easyJet. Can still get others.
As I mentioned earlier there are other airlines (I know, I went to one) but they drop in and out unlike easyJet. You could be waiting a while.
Nothing is guaranteed EVER. You need to have 100% commitment, and belief in yourself, and sorry but you need to have the bottle too.
The keys to success, in my experience
Don't show up to Dibden at 18 with no life experience. CTC is enough of a face slap introduction to the real world as it is, you don't need to be going into that 90 degree steep learning curve with no experience behind you.
Have a few years of employment. Have some money saved away.
Learn all about non-technical skills and start working on them now.
Get a PPL.
MPL is a blunter knife edge to walk on, safer. Be careful though as although QR is apparently good economically, there were some rumours on the old Clearways Urgent News Telecommunication System grapevine that if you want to leave QR for Europe you'd have to get an EASA CPL/IR and do ground school again. I don't know that might be nonsense but IF its true it's something you want to know going in to the course.
Seriously, good luck.
Wannabees need to understand that there are times on that course that you will
hate the place.It is sad, and scary, that your £100,000 loan hangs on the balance of 4 hours of flight time, in the CPL and IR tests. Fail once and you're still in with a shot. Fail twice - no chance.
More than one bad day at AQC - no easyJet. Can still get others.
As I mentioned earlier there are other airlines (I know, I went to one) but they drop in and out unlike easyJet. You could be waiting a while.
Nothing is guaranteed EVER. You need to have 100% commitment, and belief in yourself, and sorry but you need to have the bottle too.
The keys to success, in my experience
Don't show up to Dibden at 18 with no life experience. CTC is enough of a face slap introduction to the real world as it is, you don't need to be going into that 90 degree steep learning curve with no experience behind you.
Have a few years of employment. Have some money saved away.
Learn all about non-technical skills and start working on them now.
Get a PPL.
MPL is a blunter knife edge to walk on, safer. Be careful though as although QR is apparently good economically, there were some rumours on the old Clearways Urgent News Telecommunication System grapevine that if you want to leave QR for Europe you'd have to get an EASA CPL/IR and do ground school again. I don't know that might be nonsense but IF its true it's something you want to know going in to the course.
Seriously, good luck.
Last edited by tech log; 16th Dec 2016 at 10:07.
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Hello there,
@vikdream and @tech_log thanks, your posts can be very useful for aspiring pilots. You have fair points regarding CTC and the risk of not getting a job a the end of training.
But, isn't it the case for all training schools? It is fair to say that some cadets don't get a job easily at the end, and so that the investment is risky, but do you know another school where the investment could be less risky, and getting a job easier?
I feel that CTC is one of the school offering the highest chances of success.
Thanks
@vikdream and @tech_log thanks, your posts can be very useful for aspiring pilots. You have fair points regarding CTC and the risk of not getting a job a the end of training.
But, isn't it the case for all training schools? It is fair to say that some cadets don't get a job easily at the end, and so that the investment is risky, but do you know another school where the investment could be less risky, and getting a job easier?
I feel that CTC is one of the school offering the highest chances of success.
Thanks
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CTC wings assessment day
Hi, I've got an assessment day with CTC wings on 31st January, I literally have no experience and this will be my first assessment day to be a pilot I'm currently cabin crew for BA. Any tips or advice would greatly be appreciate, don't know what to expect.
Many thanks
Many thanks
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CTC Selection - Preliminary Online Assessments
Hi all,
I'm new to PPRuNe, and the following is directed at those who have gone to CTC selection or those who are soon going:
I've seen hardly any information at all about the online assessments that CTC ask candidates to complete before turning up at a selection day. I'd just like to ask what other people thought about them and how much weight they think these online assessments carry in the overall selection.
When I completed them, I was surprised that the maths test included a section on unit conversion without giving the actual conversion rates. Did anyone else think the same or did I just miss something?
Lastly, is anyone going for selection at CTC on 17th Jan?
I'm new to PPRuNe, and the following is directed at those who have gone to CTC selection or those who are soon going:
I've seen hardly any information at all about the online assessments that CTC ask candidates to complete before turning up at a selection day. I'd just like to ask what other people thought about them and how much weight they think these online assessments carry in the overall selection.
When I completed them, I was surprised that the maths test included a section on unit conversion without giving the actual conversion rates. Did anyone else think the same or did I just miss something?
Lastly, is anyone going for selection at CTC on 17th Jan?
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To those that have completed or are currently on this course - just a question regarding the ages of the students. Are most in their teens/early twenties, or are there a few in their mid to late twenties too? I'm soon to turn 30 and am looking at applying for this scheme - I wouldn't want to feel totally out of place with nothing but a bunch of teens!
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CTC Aviation - Training Sponsorship Bond. How legitimate?
I'm looking at doing the fully integrated course at CTC (after much research on this forum) and one of the main factors swaying my decision in the way of integrated is the £69,000 training bond deposit that is paid back my the airline you work for over 7 years.
I am aware that you have to get a job with either Monarch, British Airways or Easyjet to qualify for this, but has anyone had any experience with the legitimacy of this? Who is it that ultimately pays the deposit back?
My concern is that there will be some sort of catch, such as a reduction in wages during these 7 years, or certain terms and conditions that would make it very unlikely to get the bond repaid.
I would greatly appreciate any advice/experience anyone has on this as it will likely be the key factor in my choice between modular and integrated.
Thanks
I am aware that you have to get a job with either Monarch, British Airways or Easyjet to qualify for this, but has anyone had any experience with the legitimacy of this? Who is it that ultimately pays the deposit back?
My concern is that there will be some sort of catch, such as a reduction in wages during these 7 years, or certain terms and conditions that would make it very unlikely to get the bond repaid.
I would greatly appreciate any advice/experience anyone has on this as it will likely be the key factor in my choice between modular and integrated.
Thanks
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That £69,000 is a part of your training costs, it is gone once you give them that cash, be under no illusion and don't be swayed by whatever spin they put on it.
How it works (or at least used to) is the £69,000 'bond' is transferred to whatever airline you start to work for, who then pay you back £1,000 of it every month. The catch is that the salary your airline put you on is reduced by £12,000 a year compared to what it should be for a year 1 direct entry first officer.
As the £1,000 they pay back is tax-free, you essentially have £12,000 of what your annual salary should have been coming into you tax-free, therefore the sole benefit is avoiding tax on £12,000 of your income per year.
How it works (or at least used to) is the £69,000 'bond' is transferred to whatever airline you start to work for, who then pay you back £1,000 of it every month. The catch is that the salary your airline put you on is reduced by £12,000 a year compared to what it should be for a year 1 direct entry first officer.
As the £1,000 they pay back is tax-free, you essentially have £12,000 of what your annual salary should have been coming into you tax-free, therefore the sole benefit is avoiding tax on £12,000 of your income per year.
Last edited by Officer Kite; 23rd Jan 2017 at 13:44.