The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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@planedrive
I am trying to be fair and realise I come across as bias to FTO staff.
I am not about slating a particular company in this case CTC, its about looking out for people/individuals so they are aware of all aspects rather than falling for hook, line and sinker to the fancy marketing and '98%' chance of a job from FTO staff on this site!
CTC is a minima course so its the bare minimum which is fine if your okay and are up to speed, I recommend the BA backed schemes for all the FTOs. You are big players but people need to be aware that you throw a lot of carrots and then once your there its not quite the truth (in my view).
Whether you like it or not FTOs are hear to stay and will grow & shrink according to market forces but I am just tired of people like you saying its the best thing since sliced bread, its not, they can be horrible, sterile, places but they can also be great places that people enjoy a lot and make long lasting relationships but the reality is not what is published and my posts are to build this awareness that there are other ways out there and the market is unfairly controlled by these giants, it isn't allowed due to regulatory laws in banking, insurance, telecoms and indeed with the forced sale of UK airports so to some extend in aviation (which is a very different industry by any standards operating on a different planet really). So why not look out more for the people who don't have a voice ie the pilots themselves! A lot cant speak as they are scared of losing their jobs or have the CTC gatekeeper say No!
I have done some further research on the schools and from my experience if you aren't too hot on your technical knowledge/theory you will struggle and get lower ATPL results, okay you pass but if you get a lower result, our chances of not only a job (but a good job) decrease so your at the back of the queue.
For Mums & Dads about to sign their house off with BBVA this is worth considering.
Out of the big 3, CTC ground school is the shortest 5 months, Oxford 6 months and FTE (Spain) 8 months. For true ab initio's doing 5 or 6 months of straight theory may not be the best for you, whats your GCSE and A-level results, be honest to yourself? (but it may be the best for you), I know one thing that is helping me now doing my PPL is reading the theory and then going up for a lesson, it just clicks and that's what you do at FTE, so you fly and do your theory at the same time, I think that is an excellent idea and it works for me, I think its faster. The CAA allow you 18months to sit all your ATPL exams so why take 5months and risk getting low scores, (one reason COST). Of course if you ask CTC/Oxford they will tell you the opposite, maybe try it out at home, read your books for 3 hours then compare it with a 30min lesson at your local airfield?
For prospective students, have a think about that, it may work better for you and I am finding it more fun, it also seems to be a better way to learn as the FTE course is a few months shorter, I find theory and practical best work hand in hand rather than in 2 different countries. FTE is about the same price but its fully catered which is good in that you can spend more time studying but then again that extra dessert wont be so good for the waste line!!
Okay 98%?! Right that's a big figure to slam out there, now can you please back it up with something solid, if its true then share it with others, it sounds too good to be true!! (do you know that 87% stats are made up.......lol) So what year, how many students, does that include people in the pool for 3.5 years, tagged cadets? From my experience what CTC say and then deliver is very different. I have a picture of this stat on the wall outside Singapore classroom so cant upload it here but ping me and I will send it to anyone, it says 98% pass all ATPL subjects at first attempt and 92% average pass across all subjects, the head ground school instructor told me those are indeed true when I asked him standing outside the board its posted on but its 8 years old! I compared it with my class average and its 100% codswallop!
Your BALPA article link doesn't work, pls re post:
404 - File or directory not found.
The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
I agree that the majority ie 51% get jobs at the end of the day but often they are on this £1,200 a month for 6 months then after that they have no job and are back on the pile.
Two chaps I spoke to now at Monarch on the CTC Graduation day, waited quite a few months in the pool, and had to get an interim job, 1 I think at the supermarket. 1 ended up getting a job but on a 75% contract so he was annoyed and they wouldn't up his hours but had to take it. The next batch of people a few months later got 100% contracts so he was quite upset but had to suck it up, next few years getting a 75% salary, so I guess he would count in your '98%' stat but that kind of sucks.....he said over Christmas 2013 he had one flight to do and was feeling the pinch.
Again its hard to just dispute numbers on a forum, you need accurate data as a source of truth which wont be published but from my experience 85% are British at CTC ( and I would say 95% are EU). Have a look at the pictures of the CPs on the wall and I think they would back my figures more than yours but if you have some data then share it and I am happy to be corrected.
I am not about slating a particular company in this case CTC, its about looking out for people/individuals so they are aware of all aspects rather than falling for hook, line and sinker to the fancy marketing and '98%' chance of a job from FTO staff on this site!
CTC is a minima course so its the bare minimum which is fine if your okay and are up to speed, I recommend the BA backed schemes for all the FTOs. You are big players but people need to be aware that you throw a lot of carrots and then once your there its not quite the truth (in my view).
Whether you like it or not FTOs are hear to stay and will grow & shrink according to market forces but I am just tired of people like you saying its the best thing since sliced bread, its not, they can be horrible, sterile, places but they can also be great places that people enjoy a lot and make long lasting relationships but the reality is not what is published and my posts are to build this awareness that there are other ways out there and the market is unfairly controlled by these giants, it isn't allowed due to regulatory laws in banking, insurance, telecoms and indeed with the forced sale of UK airports so to some extend in aviation (which is a very different industry by any standards operating on a different planet really). So why not look out more for the people who don't have a voice ie the pilots themselves! A lot cant speak as they are scared of losing their jobs or have the CTC gatekeeper say No!
I have done some further research on the schools and from my experience if you aren't too hot on your technical knowledge/theory you will struggle and get lower ATPL results, okay you pass but if you get a lower result, our chances of not only a job (but a good job) decrease so your at the back of the queue.
For Mums & Dads about to sign their house off with BBVA this is worth considering.
Out of the big 3, CTC ground school is the shortest 5 months, Oxford 6 months and FTE (Spain) 8 months. For true ab initio's doing 5 or 6 months of straight theory may not be the best for you, whats your GCSE and A-level results, be honest to yourself? (but it may be the best for you), I know one thing that is helping me now doing my PPL is reading the theory and then going up for a lesson, it just clicks and that's what you do at FTE, so you fly and do your theory at the same time, I think that is an excellent idea and it works for me, I think its faster. The CAA allow you 18months to sit all your ATPL exams so why take 5months and risk getting low scores, (one reason COST). Of course if you ask CTC/Oxford they will tell you the opposite, maybe try it out at home, read your books for 3 hours then compare it with a 30min lesson at your local airfield?
For prospective students, have a think about that, it may work better for you and I am finding it more fun, it also seems to be a better way to learn as the FTE course is a few months shorter, I find theory and practical best work hand in hand rather than in 2 different countries. FTE is about the same price but its fully catered which is good in that you can spend more time studying but then again that extra dessert wont be so good for the waste line!!
Okay 98%?! Right that's a big figure to slam out there, now can you please back it up with something solid, if its true then share it with others, it sounds too good to be true!! (do you know that 87% stats are made up.......lol) So what year, how many students, does that include people in the pool for 3.5 years, tagged cadets? From my experience what CTC say and then deliver is very different. I have a picture of this stat on the wall outside Singapore classroom so cant upload it here but ping me and I will send it to anyone, it says 98% pass all ATPL subjects at first attempt and 92% average pass across all subjects, the head ground school instructor told me those are indeed true when I asked him standing outside the board its posted on but its 8 years old! I compared it with my class average and its 100% codswallop!
Your BALPA article link doesn't work, pls re post:
404 - File or directory not found.
The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
I agree that the majority ie 51% get jobs at the end of the day but often they are on this £1,200 a month for 6 months then after that they have no job and are back on the pile.
Two chaps I spoke to now at Monarch on the CTC Graduation day, waited quite a few months in the pool, and had to get an interim job, 1 I think at the supermarket. 1 ended up getting a job but on a 75% contract so he was annoyed and they wouldn't up his hours but had to take it. The next batch of people a few months later got 100% contracts so he was quite upset but had to suck it up, next few years getting a 75% salary, so I guess he would count in your '98%' stat but that kind of sucks.....he said over Christmas 2013 he had one flight to do and was feeling the pinch.
Again its hard to just dispute numbers on a forum, you need accurate data as a source of truth which wont be published but from my experience 85% are British at CTC ( and I would say 95% are EU). Have a look at the pictures of the CPs on the wall and I think they would back my figures more than yours but if you have some data then share it and I am happy to be corrected.
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@centropy
You clearly know what you are talking about.
Re the bond, I never took it out as I was self funded so didn't really look at it, can you explain how it works for folks here, when is it actually paid back?
What happens if you don't get a job (which will happen to 2% of people if you take @planedrive's stats)?
Or are sick and cant make the repayments?
Or say you decide £20,000 a year is too low and your circumstances change and you need to get a job elsewhere, earning £25,000 do you still get the bond back?
£1,400 monthly repayments; that sounds huge? Are you sure that's right, my mortgage was no where near that!
Re the bond, I never took it out as I was self funded so didn't really look at it, can you explain how it works for folks here, when is it actually paid back?
What happens if you don't get a job (which will happen to 2% of people if you take @planedrive's stats)?
Or are sick and cant make the repayments?
Or say you decide £20,000 a year is too low and your circumstances change and you need to get a job elsewhere, earning £25,000 do you still get the bond back?
£1,400 monthly repayments; that sounds huge? Are you sure that's right, my mortgage was no where near that!
@Centropy - Apologies I should have made myself clearer. The changes to the easyjet contract are new as of June last year and again, my mistake with the link. I tried to put it in brackets and it took that as part of the web address - it should now be visible!
I did not mean to mislead anyone and as we all know, things change incredibly quickly in this industry.
Yes, you are on £1200 (tax free) for the first 8 months approx, again I should have made this clearer. You then move onto a CTC contract for the remaining time until you have 1 year service at Easy before moving onto the NEC of £38,000pa. You do now get the security bond back - this has been recently clarified and can be found on the CTC Wings facebook page for anyone particularly interested.
I agree that in the past it would have been very hard to live sustainably on the contracts provided but this has recently changed - with the graduates that I know personally.
@Catalyst - this will be my last post to you as it's obvious that you will not listen to anything that has been said on any thread to disrupt your discontent with CTC.
1) I do not work for CTC or any FTO.
2) Do CTC Wings Cadet graduates get offered jobs, providing they complete
the course to standards given when signing contracts? Yes.
3) I'm not sure how you can keep judging CTC, or any other FTO, that trains abroad as you have not partaken in any flight training abroad via these FTO's. As for the way CTC and Oxford do groundschool - I think the results speak for themselves.
4) The fact that people who graduated last August, and are now in the right hand seat flying the line for Easy and the way the CTC hold pool system works means that unless they have been declined after interviews, or refused job offers themselves, then there is no-one in the hold pool who has been there for 3.5 years. What you may be confusing is the CTC ATP pool which is completely separate to the CTC Wings pool and is indeed much slower moving.
5) As I said before, if you had got to Hamilton, you would have seen for yourself that not everyone is British or European. The Wings course are not the only Cadets that CTC take - there are international courses around the world. I'm sure anyone who has been there will agree with me.
As with any training providers, in any industry, all FTO's have their up and down sides. CTC is the only one I know a significant amount about which is why I have written these posts.
I did not mean to mislead anyone and as we all know, things change incredibly quickly in this industry.
Yes, you are on £1200 (tax free) for the first 8 months approx, again I should have made this clearer. You then move onto a CTC contract for the remaining time until you have 1 year service at Easy before moving onto the NEC of £38,000pa. You do now get the security bond back - this has been recently clarified and can be found on the CTC Wings facebook page for anyone particularly interested.
I agree that in the past it would have been very hard to live sustainably on the contracts provided but this has recently changed - with the graduates that I know personally.
@Catalyst - this will be my last post to you as it's obvious that you will not listen to anything that has been said on any thread to disrupt your discontent with CTC.
1) I do not work for CTC or any FTO.
2) Do CTC Wings Cadet graduates get offered jobs, providing they complete
the course to standards given when signing contracts? Yes.
3) I'm not sure how you can keep judging CTC, or any other FTO, that trains abroad as you have not partaken in any flight training abroad via these FTO's. As for the way CTC and Oxford do groundschool - I think the results speak for themselves.
4) The fact that people who graduated last August, and are now in the right hand seat flying the line for Easy and the way the CTC hold pool system works means that unless they have been declined after interviews, or refused job offers themselves, then there is no-one in the hold pool who has been there for 3.5 years. What you may be confusing is the CTC ATP pool which is completely separate to the CTC Wings pool and is indeed much slower moving.
5) As I said before, if you had got to Hamilton, you would have seen for yourself that not everyone is British or European. The Wings course are not the only Cadets that CTC take - there are international courses around the world. I'm sure anyone who has been there will agree with me.
As with any training providers, in any industry, all FTO's have their up and down sides. CTC is the only one I know a significant amount about which is why I have written these posts.
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FTO = nowadays ATO. Your = You're. 
My apologies for not wanting to sift through every page of this thread to locate the info I am looking for...
Could anyone please confirm CTC's current price for their integrated course is 90,000 sterling?
On average, what's the mark-up for expenses not included in that figure such as food, flights to NZ and back to the UK, health insurance, car in NZ (?), and a possible extra for additional training required?
What do eJ/CTC charge Wings grads nowadays for the bus type?
Re the loan, when do the banks start charging interest?
So do I get this right Wings gads employed by eJ start on about 20,000 sterling in first year and then go onto NEC with 38,000 sterling?
I do not mean to bash anyone here, just looking for info.
Thank you.
My apologies for not wanting to sift through every page of this thread to locate the info I am looking for...
Could anyone please confirm CTC's current price for their integrated course is 90,000 sterling?
On average, what's the mark-up for expenses not included in that figure such as food, flights to NZ and back to the UK, health insurance, car in NZ (?), and a possible extra for additional training required?
What do eJ/CTC charge Wings grads nowadays for the bus type?
Re the loan, when do the banks start charging interest?
So do I get this right Wings gads employed by eJ start on about 20,000 sterling in first year and then go onto NEC with 38,000 sterling?
I do not mean to bash anyone here, just looking for info.
Thank you.
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CTC security bond
@Planedrive.
Hello, do you know when you get the security bond back. The only thing I find disspaointing about the ctc website is that it is quite unclear what happens to this bond. Is it only repaid to cadet if they take the 'cadet' route as opposed to the 'CTC FlexiCrew'.
I have recently been accepted on to CTC scheme and currently going through the process of making a decision.
I will hopefully be able to feedback further once I have spoken to bank and CTC directly.
Cheers
Hello, do you know when you get the security bond back. The only thing I find disspaointing about the ctc website is that it is quite unclear what happens to this bond. Is it only repaid to cadet if they take the 'cadet' route as opposed to the 'CTC FlexiCrew'.
I have recently been accepted on to CTC scheme and currently going through the process of making a decision.
I will hopefully be able to feedback further once I have spoken to bank and CTC directly.
Cheers
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The "bond" rather depends on where you end up. In principle it is the cost of your training course. You pay it, they provide the training. However the reason it is a "bond" and what actually happens is rather more complicated.
The nature of the training programme and the placement with a partner airline allows for the "bond" portion of the training costs to be assumed by the airline. This is tax advantageous from an input cost standpoint for the airline, and it has also has potential tax advantages for you.
Depending on the placement and whether or not the "bond" is transferred (purchased) by the customer airline, it might be repaid to you by way of monthly payments over a fixed period (5-7 years typically). These repayments (again depending on the airline) may be in addition to a cadet salary, or as part of that cadet salary. The level of that cadet salary likely reflecting the method of "repayment." The advantage to you is that a part of that repayment is not subject to income tax, but is subject to a smaller element of withholding tax. In any event it is advantageous to your net (bottom line) salary payment.
Some companies do not assume the "bond" and similarly if you are not placed for whatever reason or you obtain your own employment then the "bond" is simply passed across from the holding company to the training school.
In a nutshell that is how it works. The easiest viewpoint is that you are paying for training. Wave goodbye to the money in the same way you would paying for any training. Depending on where you end up, that money might be fed back to you but usually as part of a monthly salary payment. In that case you will gain a tax advantage (after the fact) such that part of your training costs were relieved from a tax viewpoint.
It is better not to get the idea that somebody is going to present you with a cheque for the "bond" portion of your costs and say "here is your money back." That isn't going to happen. However there are advantages to you, but they are spread over a fairly long period. Those advantages also do not apply with every partner. Those advantages are also subject to any future changes in inland revenue rules.
Again, it is important to understand that the repayment (if there is one) is completely dependent on the customer airline. Put simply, it is no longer your money, it is either the money that APL will use to pay your training costs, or it becomes the airlines money to keep or repay in whatever manner they see fit. This may go some way to explain why it is unclear.
If you want any further information I would need to obtain it from one of our cadets, but if you have a specific airline in mind you should be able to obtain it here, (after filtering the usual detritus!)
The nature of the training programme and the placement with a partner airline allows for the "bond" portion of the training costs to be assumed by the airline. This is tax advantageous from an input cost standpoint for the airline, and it has also has potential tax advantages for you.
Depending on the placement and whether or not the "bond" is transferred (purchased) by the customer airline, it might be repaid to you by way of monthly payments over a fixed period (5-7 years typically). These repayments (again depending on the airline) may be in addition to a cadet salary, or as part of that cadet salary. The level of that cadet salary likely reflecting the method of "repayment." The advantage to you is that a part of that repayment is not subject to income tax, but is subject to a smaller element of withholding tax. In any event it is advantageous to your net (bottom line) salary payment.
Some companies do not assume the "bond" and similarly if you are not placed for whatever reason or you obtain your own employment then the "bond" is simply passed across from the holding company to the training school.
In a nutshell that is how it works. The easiest viewpoint is that you are paying for training. Wave goodbye to the money in the same way you would paying for any training. Depending on where you end up, that money might be fed back to you but usually as part of a monthly salary payment. In that case you will gain a tax advantage (after the fact) such that part of your training costs were relieved from a tax viewpoint.
It is better not to get the idea that somebody is going to present you with a cheque for the "bond" portion of your costs and say "here is your money back." That isn't going to happen. However there are advantages to you, but they are spread over a fairly long period. Those advantages also do not apply with every partner. Those advantages are also subject to any future changes in inland revenue rules.
Again, it is important to understand that the repayment (if there is one) is completely dependent on the customer airline. Put simply, it is no longer your money, it is either the money that APL will use to pay your training costs, or it becomes the airlines money to keep or repay in whatever manner they see fit. This may go some way to explain why it is unclear.
If you want any further information I would need to obtain it from one of our cadets, but if you have a specific airline in mind you should be able to obtain it here, (after filtering the usual detritus!)
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'The level of that cadet salary likely reflecting the method of "repayment"'
Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe it just so happens that the cadet salary at ezy just so happens to be 12k less than a normal (d/e) one ? totally reflecting a £1,000 a month "repayment".
I agree in that it's best not to see this as a reimbursement as such but rather just a part of your salary.
Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe it just so happens that the cadet salary at ezy just so happens to be 12k less than a normal (d/e) one ? totally reflecting a £1,000 a month "repayment".
I agree in that it's best not to see this as a reimbursement as such but rather just a part of your salary.
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You would need somebody from that airline to confirm that, but it sounds about right. The £1000 is removed from the taxable portion of income and split into a capital/interest figure whereby a smaller portion of it is subject to a withholding tax charge.
The repayment programmes I am more familiar with, result in a sacrifice from the relevant salary scale of around £1150 per month (that scale being cadet and normal F/O or Captains scales for up to a maximum period of 84 months), and the money is then repaid back to the individual as described. It is a voluntary and elective arrangement, but given the tax benefits, one that most qualifying individuals seem to avail themselves of.
The repayment programmes I am more familiar with, result in a sacrifice from the relevant salary scale of around £1150 per month (that scale being cadet and normal F/O or Captains scales for up to a maximum period of 84 months), and the money is then repaid back to the individual as described. It is a voluntary and elective arrangement, but given the tax benefits, one that most qualifying individuals seem to avail themselves of.
To clarify for anyone interested as there seems to be some confusion. Under the current system, on placement with easyjet you will be paid £1200/month for the first 8 months (tax free). After which you will transfer onto a CTC flexi crew contract (paid per scheduled block hour) until you are successfully employed directly by easyjet (under the New Entrant Contract).
You are eligible to start the contract with easyjet exactly 1 year after your first day with easyjet (so your first flying day regardless of who employs you). When you are taken on as a direct easyjet employee, you are eligible to start receiving your CTC Bond back at the rate of about £1000/month. This means that out of your annual salary of £38k, £12k or so will be paid by CTC and will be tax free. The other 26k will be paid by easyjet and is liable for tax. Also because of the standard personal allowance, you will only be paying tax on about 16k out of 38k per year until the bond is repaid or you take a contract abroad or leave easyjet.
You are eligible to start the contract with easyjet exactly 1 year after your first day with easyjet (so your first flying day regardless of who employs you). When you are taken on as a direct easyjet employee, you are eligible to start receiving your CTC Bond back at the rate of about £1000/month. This means that out of your annual salary of £38k, £12k or so will be paid by CTC and will be tax free. The other 26k will be paid by easyjet and is liable for tax. Also because of the standard personal allowance, you will only be paying tax on about 16k out of 38k per year until the bond is repaid or you take a contract abroad or leave easyjet.
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Yes. that is what the terms permit. However you should of course bear in mind that the interest on the whole balance of the loan continues to accrue from the time the loan is drawn down. You would be making no capital repayments for the first 24 months and only 75% of the (otherwise) regular capital payments for the next 24 months. As the loan has a finite length (although you can discharge it sooner) this will result in hefty repayments for the remaining life of the loan, in order to discharge the capital and the rolled up interest, together with the annual balance interest for the remainder of the loan period.
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Thank you!
Hi,I have read over recent months several months many examples of your input onto this site.I have been trying to get the feel of the industry as my son is about to start with CTC Wings in a couple of months.
He has wanted to be an airline pilot all his life and has progressed through the ranks of the air cadets and got as much flying experience out of his time there as he possibly could.
I am uncertain of the future but believe that you have to start somewhere to become a pilot and so in for a penny in for a pound.
BBVA here we come.
He has wanted to be an airline pilot all his life and has progressed through the ranks of the air cadets and got as much flying experience out of his time there as he possibly could.
I am uncertain of the future but believe that you have to start somewhere to become a pilot and so in for a penny in for a pound.
BBVA here we come.
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Because the chances of getting a civil flying job in the UK without paying for something along the way are precisely nil.
People have paid for education for hundreds of years, it's their choice to make!
People have paid for education for hundreds of years, it's their choice to make!
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And one I have made.... on CP123 starting August 25th. Cant wait to begin. Looking for others who are starting around the same time if anyone has any names.
Just a quick question, what is the average loan people are taking from BBVA? are they borrowing for living expenses also? I have been lucky and come into some money recently meaning I need only borrow the £89,800 (minus £2000 initial bond payment). Will this make a big difference in my loan repayments? BBVA are currently processing application and are not easy to get answers from.
Just a quick question, what is the average loan people are taking from BBVA? are they borrowing for living expenses also? I have been lucky and come into some money recently meaning I need only borrow the £89,800 (minus £2000 initial bond payment). Will this make a big difference in my loan repayments? BBVA are currently processing application and are not easy to get answers from.
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I am on CP123 starting 18th of August. Must be the same course?
Ive just sent my loan application for £70k, hoping to lend the rest off family. I have no idea for living expenses but I am giving myself £500 a month initially...
Ive just sent my loan application for £70k, hoping to lend the rest off family. I have no idea for living expenses but I am giving myself £500 a month initially...
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Do you have the Airline Prep Course day on the 22nd? My meet and greet is the 21st. I wonder why we have the same CP number but are starting a week apart? I might have a quick convo with CTC and just confirm everything.
Looking forward to meeting you.
Looking forward to meeting you.
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Help for Aptitude Test
Hi everyone. I'm planning to take the test for Qatar Wings in a couple of months time. Which software or website would you recommend me to best prepare for the aptitude test? I'll be grateful if you could also give me some details about what to expect in the aptitude test.
Thank you.
Thank you.