PURPLE PITOT

Apples and oranges then. If i understand correctly, your definition of a "cadet" is someone on a tagged airline integrated course.

I completely agree that in the current market, that is the best route to an "airline career".

Using your figures, that still leaves 80%+ of the sausage factory students with no jobs, never mind the other CPL/IRs qualified by other means.

Bealzebub

No, that isn't my definition. I understand "tagged" to mean that those cadets have been pre-selected for placement/employment prior to, or during a course of training. Many of the "wings cadets" at CTC have no idea of their placement (which in itself may change,) until the completion of their basic course. As placements are in the gift of the customer airline, the number of such placements is dynamic. If those numbers are low, then there may be significant delays in obtaining that portion of the advanced training. Further, there is absolutely no guarantee of employment with a particular customer airline dovetailing from any such placements.

Yes. I think love it or hate it, for all the strengths and weaknesses, it is still the best route in the current market and for the forseeable future.

No it doesn't. I have given a one airline snapshot. There are other airlines and I don't have their figures. However, it seems that most of the students who succesfully complete this particular programme, do obtain placements that allow them to complete their advanced training on a commercial flight deck, together with around 500 hours of type experience. Many seem to find that employment does indeed dovetail from these placements, (on terms that span a wide spectrum from excellent to poor.) British airways have students at this school as part of their FPP programme. Monarch airlines have students there as part of their MPL programme. Other airlines have taken students from the wings programme into employment. I don't have figures to offer, but I would very surprised if the numbers of succesful graduates (from the wings cadet programme,) not offered placements within a reasonable timeframe, was significant at all.

The subject of this rather long thread is quite specific. What happens to other "qualified" CPL/IR's is beyond the remit of this specific thread, and there are a great many other threads devoted to the many facets of that discussion.

La Amistad

It depends on what's a reasonable wait. It's now about 18 months to 2 years. There is a large hold pool at the moment.

The key is that they are on placements, not employed. The guys I fly with are all 100K plus in debt by the time they are done. Far above 80K.

Be under no illusions, it's the "best" route into the industry but its a long hard one. Please don't think of it as a nice little placement, 500 hours and a job.

I fly with cadets unable to eat. Run their central heating. Get married. Buy a house.

There is a large and growing hold pool. A vastly reduced number of "jobs" available. Do the course by all means but plan for several years of hardship from start to finish.

pipersam

Whats your source of info regarding the hold pool size and, seriously, 18-24 months?

Bealzebub

A point to bear in mind is that "holding pools" are tidal in nature. By that I mean, most airlines are highly seasonal in their training programmes. Airline pilots are very demanding on training resources. Established pilots usually tie up around 8 hours of simulator time each (16 hours per rostered pair) per annum. Add recurrent ground training, line checks, and command training to the mix, and it comes to a sizeable training commitment.

New induction training, places a heavy burden on the available training tracks. For cadets this is especially so. This is why such training is concentrated in the airlines low season, usually the period November to April, although there is often overspill.

This means that placement opportunities tend to be programmed in the Winter and Spring, with significantly lower demand at other times of the year. It follows that an intermediate training course ending in the Autumn, is going to be much better placed (all other things being equal,) than one finishing in Winter Spring or Summer, when the resultant wait time may well be longer.

I am aware of placements being offered to graduates who have completed their courses this year, so a "hold pool of 18-24 months" seems highly unlikely. However given the tidal nature of recruitment and the commercial demands of the airline customers, such things should never be dismissed. In the past few years there have been waiting times for placements of anything between zero and over 12 months.

Robert G Mugabe

I am sure you are also aware that the latest offers ( in orange land ) were seasonal. I know of a couple of flexicrew "enjoying" a winter sabbatical. November to March off. A promise of re-employment in a base subject to company requirement. So we now have a flexible and migratory workforce.

I personally would not consider entering the commercial flying world at the moment. The numbers do not stack up.

Bealzebub is glass half full. I am glass half empty.

You should also be aware that the orange lot have also offered unpaid leave over the winter months to their employees. Not allowed over Christmas period though. So we are overcrewed in winter. Combine this with very limited expansion and you can surely see that command and employment opportunities will start to dry up. This is in one of the most profitable airlines in Europe.

So Wanabees " Take your chances "

PLINKY DEL MAYO

For those that don't do the proper research it seems to sum up the situation quite nicely.

like a lamb to the slaughter

something that you say about someone who does something or goes somewhere calmly and happily, not knowing that something unpleasant is going to happen to them.

Please do your research before you hand your cash over

Wing_Bound_Vortex

No one wishes anyone to be shelf stacking, trying to repay over £1000 a month in loan repayments. That's why people in the know are on here trying to warn potential customers of the FTO's to be very careful before spending all that money.

easyJet, CTC's biggest customer for cadet/low hours pilots for many years, just laid off 45 odd cadets this winter. Not good, not when they're all the lowest experienced pilots in the company with limited other options. We are not expanding, very few commands next year in the grand scheme of things. Not much attrition, a relatively young workforce, fast commands are a thing of the past. It's not exactly a positive outlook here at the moment for cadets.

I believe CTC are owned by a private equity group now? How do we think this will impact the requirement for them to keep the courses ticking over ( keeping the money rolling in ) without regards to the job available once the students plunge into the holding pool? Something to think about.

It's a lot of money to spend and you don't get it back so be very careful about weighing up the risks. Cadets have gone bankrupt in the past unable to service their debts. Don't let that be you...especially when it's your parents house as collateral.

PrestonPilot

This thread gets old fast.
Please do your research? You do research and you get your head bitten off for trying to do research.

flickroller

Hi does anybody know if there is accommodation available for couples in both the UK and in New Zealand. Is it a common thing to live with partners?

pipersam

CTC can accommodate your partner, there are fee's associated which they can tell you if you contact them.

When I was out there, there were roughly 4-5 students that had their partner out there for either the whole, or majority, of the time.

flickroller

Great! Thanks for that information!

mr1862

I'm a current student at CTC (ground school) and would just like to voice my impression so far...

I am disappointed. Very disappointed, actually.

Considering the amount of money I have paid, there has been a major shortfall in many aspects from administration to the actual teaching itself.

To begin with, the accommodation myself and my colleagues have been placed in is very far from the school (>20km) in an area that literally has nothing around it with a bus to Southampton central costing me £6 and taking an hour. For non-drivers like myself, this has placed me extremely demotivated and unhappy with unnecessary expenses that I honestly did not foresee. I often have to walk a mile just to get to a small supermarket. Southampton has an abundance of accommodation at very reasonable prices (esp. compared to London) and when you consider the amount of money we are throwing at CTC, this is disappointing. There are other intakes who are much closer to the school, but when approaching management, I was indirectly told that 'we can't please everyone' and that 'just bear with it for only 5 months and then you'll be able to relax in NZ'. BS.

The teaching has also been disappointing. Despite the 9-5 intensive approach we were told to expect (due to finishing a 12 month course in 5 months), this has never happened. In fact, as I write this, I have been on a 2.5 hour lunch and regularly have 45min tea breaks too. This results in me having to learn extra in my own time BUT with an hour commuting to-and-from my accommodation every day, squeezing in a gym workout wherever I can, it's even more difficult.

I have also heard from students who are currently in New Zealand, that they only find out if they're going to be flying the next day at 4pm the day before. Some students have said that they have been up to TWO WEEKS waiting for their next training flight and only finding out only at 4pm every day. Therefore, time where they could've done their own thing or, even better, reduced the amount of time overall in NZ, is literally sent down the sink. Plus the personal expenses they need to spend every day (food, etc) it all adds up unnecessarily. Apparently, the instructors are also upset about this as even THEY believe this is very poorly managed and could easily be avoided with better planning (and no, it has nothing to do with weather, it's just bad management). This is probably a direct result of the numbers game that CTC plays these days with the massive churning of $tud€nt$ and inability to accommodate them all. It's only £100k after all.

So yes. This morning I have already picked up my 20 page contract and looking into 'Termination of Agreement' and what my rights are. Sad, but true. Hopefully it won't lead to that, but at the moment, given the impression and attention I've had so far, it might just have to be a 10k first installment I'll just have to painfully write off and kick myself for stupidly spending.

And I'm still waiting for my lecture to get back from his "30min admin task"...Oops he just walked in (2h55min later)

Bealzebub

Mr1862,

Take a deep breath, and remind yourself why you are there. A couple of years ago, I followed the progress of a group of students who were all exactly in the same position as yourself. Almost all of that group are now flying as first officers on modern jets for a Uk airline on full time permanent contracts of employment.

This is a 15 month training commitment that by its very nature needs to maintain a fairly strict timetable. Whilst it might be very frustrating that there needs to be flexibility to achieve those timetabled constraints, you only have to look at the training footprints that are available to you, to see that the majority of students do complete the requisite stages in the times allocated.

The accommodation that I saw, all seemed to be adequate private housing sourced from private landlords. This accomodation was shared on the basis of a private bedroom for each student. That accommodation seemed to be in surrounding areas up to a radius of about 15 miles. Not every student had access to their own vehicle, but it did seem that an effort was made to put somebody (often more than one,) with a vehicle in each house, and it was up to the group to sort out there own arrangements on that basis. I don't think that was always a convenient arrangement, but it seemed to work out more often than not. Perhaps an early introduction into the art of CRM?

In New Zealand the students were accommodated in clearways a group of purpose built single story blocks, with individual bedrooms and en-suite shower rooms, together with shared kitchen, gym and lounge facilities. Day to day transport was largely satisfied by small groups buying some of the oldest and highest mileage cars know to man, and sharing them between small groups of themselves. The students were there for about 7 months and the flying programme was subject to constant modification in order to allow for weather, instructor availability, and keeping each group at broadly the same level. Sometimes this involves flying every day, and sometimes many days can pass with no rostered flying at all. Flying aside, there are ground lectures and briefings that require airport attendance. Most students do complete all the requisite stages and examinations within this planned period. The following days flying programme was usually released the preceding day at around 4pm, and seemed to be eagerly anticipated. Students did have a timetable that provided for days off, so despite the programme it is possible to plan for personal recreation.

Flying by its very nature can be easily disrupted (just ask any airline pilot!) A programme flown may have very little relation to that notified at the planning stage. If you are expecting little disruption, then you are not only going to be very disappointed by the training, but you are going to be extremely disappointed by the reality of the career you have chosen!

Going back to the group I followed. I am sure there were times they felt fed up and dejected. However that was far outweighed by passing the ATPL writtens. Flying out to New Zealand. The first solo (where applicable.) Passing the staged flying tests. Passing the CPL flight test. Coming back to the UK and (back into rented accomodation) passing the Instrument rating test. Completing the AQC. Starting that first morning with the airline back in groundschool. The first simulator excercise in the full motion simulator. The first circuit in the real thing. The first day with 200 passengers sat behind you.

For this particular group they achieved all of that not 18 months from where you are now. A lot of friendships were forged, many of which are likely to become life long friendships. Most of them are still sharing houses only now they pay the rental costs directly themselves. They also all have their own cars.

So as I said at the beginning take a deep breath and remind yourself why you are there. Nothing you have written seems out of the ordinary, or at variance with what I have seen for myself. Nothing seems out of the ordinary if you transpose it to an airline environment.

If the accommodation was leaking and riddled with mold, or the training was not being provided, I would have some sympathy. Enjoy your long lunches and tea breaks, because I supect that isn't always going to be the case. You have an opportunity that many people would give their eye teeth for. Try and be a little more patient and fit in with the programme however it flows from time to time. It will stand you in good stead for the future. If it really isn't for you, then yes, cut your losses. If (as I suspect) that isn't really the case, I am not sure where I would recommend you go to improve your future prospects.

Bealzebub

I have been informed we have 28 starting shortly. Perhaps we are mistaken?

pipersam

I guess you are in Hamble? I do seem to remember that the contract does state that providing transport for yourself is highly recommended as you could be placed in accommodation anywhere in the surrounding area?

Treat this as a luxury! A 45 minute break was a god send after a couple of hours worth of POF!

Yeah it can be annoying but it's incredibly hard for FTO's and airlines to be as flexible as it seems you want them to be as there are so many variables effecting the operations. When I was there, Air New Zealand opened their employment doors and a number of instructors left for the airline. Just suck it up mate because at the end of the day, your going to experience these operational annoyances for the rest of your life. Aviation is not plane sailing.

It seems you are predicting the future, which is impossible. And your wrong about them not being able to place students as well.

M33

Mr1862,

It's a real shame that you are having such a hard time, especially when you are the paying customer!

Flight training is certainly not cheap, and I think it is great that you are prepared to share your experience so far.

Informed choice should be available to all prospective students, and from my experience schools are very good at fudging statistics.

Mind it is a business!

mr1863

As a cadet who shares a CP with mr1862, I would like a few notes to go on the record.

1. mr1862 is being disingenuous as to the nature of these breaks, and he knows better. Overall, of the four instructors who have taken classes with the CP; cadets were (and are) very pleased with 3 instructors and less so with a 4th. Such is life.

2. The accommodation to which mr1862 refers is widely considered to be sub-standard, as result CTC have agreed to review their lease on the property.

3. You clearly don't get out very much.

4. Cadets on mr1862's CP are beginning find his persistent whinging quite tedious, and feel that he might benefit from a more positive outlook on life.

pipersam

I think both of you should get off the internet and do some studying.

I sound like my dad.

mr1862

Funny how Mr1863 comes with all his superfluous, nugatory comments under the guise of a highly original username created just after my post, yet doesn't have the b*lls to say it to my face in class. Talk about creating tension amongst your fellow colleagues now... a highly desirable pilot quality, sir!

I don't know, but where I come from, we have a) a certain standard of living and b) expectation of money paid vs product received - an argument that has been fought in courts worldwide and often won by the consumer. PM me for case law examples, I have loads.

And thanks for using your personal knowledge to almost centre out exactly who I am or, at least, where I live for the purposes of the hidden CTC staff on here. You're the man!