The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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How many ex-CTC pilots have written here they haven't been joined an airline after his graduation with CTC? I have not seen any. It might take a long time, but all of them (I am talking about cadets, not other CTC programmes) have been able fly in an airline.
I know some EZY-CTC pilots, some of them started 10 months ago. All of them are still flying for EZY.
Things are complicated. A huge amount of flexi pilots might be grounded this winter, but they will come back in the summer or CTC might include them in the hold pool again.
You might be against this programme, but it is (by far) the best programme in Europe (apart from the ones sponsored by an airline, such as the FPP, Aer Lingus, Flybe... etc). It is expensive, but other ATPL programmes are as well (even more than CTC Wings) and they don't have the employment stats that CTC have. Even if your "adventure" with the airline lasts only for 8 months, you have had time to have a TR on a A320, more than 500 h on type and you have paid more or less the same amount of money you would pay for other ATPL programmes.
I would like to pay less for my training, then start instructing for 1-2 years and gain a job in a regional airline. That would be fantastic. However, many wanabees planned it this way and, 4-5 years later, they haven't been able to proceed to the second step. Their debt is a bit lower (not much), they are unemployed (probably they are, but not flying aircrafts) and they have had no experience on jets.
I'm on CP101 by the way, if there any other cadets on CP101 here, PM me please
I know some EZY-CTC pilots, some of them started 10 months ago. All of them are still flying for EZY.
Things are complicated. A huge amount of flexi pilots might be grounded this winter, but they will come back in the summer or CTC might include them in the hold pool again.
You might be against this programme, but it is (by far) the best programme in Europe (apart from the ones sponsored by an airline, such as the FPP, Aer Lingus, Flybe... etc). It is expensive, but other ATPL programmes are as well (even more than CTC Wings) and they don't have the employment stats that CTC have. Even if your "adventure" with the airline lasts only for 8 months, you have had time to have a TR on a A320, more than 500 h on type and you have paid more or less the same amount of money you would pay for other ATPL programmes.
I would like to pay less for my training, then start instructing for 1-2 years and gain a job in a regional airline. That would be fantastic. However, many wanabees planned it this way and, 4-5 years later, they haven't been able to proceed to the second step. Their debt is a bit lower (not much), they are unemployed (probably they are, but not flying aircrafts) and they have had no experience on jets.
I'm on CP101 by the way, if there any other cadets on CP101 here, PM me please
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The reality is that we cannot change the situation. I have been waiting for this moment since I am 12. I have a degree, PPL, decent job position within the airline industry, managed to save the 35% of what my training will cost... I am not going to sit on the chair seeing aircrafts flying over my flat despite the current economic situation...
... And I am not the only one. Obviously I don't like what's happening. Flexicrew contracts are not the best (they are actually quite bad). But what can we wanabees hope for? And we can't certainly reverse the situation, that's for sure. We might be able to change it in the future, but not now. This scheme (CTC Wings) is one of the best ways into the airlines (as I said before, apart from FPP, etc.). If after that EZY offers peanuts, it's not our fault. Someone let them do it at a certain point in the past, and it was not me or any other wanabee, that's for sure.
The reality is that many young pilots in Europe will never be on the right hand side of a jet (the majority of them I would say). It does not matter whether you start now or within 5 years time, because when I was 18 the situation was not very different. Knowing that, some of them have worked very hard to gain a place in a scheme that puts us in a better position within the airline industry (or at least, that gives us the opportunity of entering the airline industry). Don't blame us for paying 100K (it is not actually, it is 79K), don't blame us for accepting flexi crew contracts. We have no choice if we want to follow our dreams. We are not rich either, some of us have been saving every peny (euro cents in my case) we could.
I am not trying to convince anybody that CTC is the best FTO out there or that they deal with EZY is good. I am just saying that, considering the current situation, they are a very good opportunity for wanabees and, let me say this, a very fair and well-structured opportunity. Oh, and referring to one of the comments above, CTC never promised me a job or a salary of 60K a year. They were and have always been very honest.
This is my point of view, however some of you might think different. But I come from a place where FO salaries are worse than the Flexicrew contract, where the 50% of the graduated pilots are unemployed and where 60% of the FTO closed down in the past two years.
... And I am not the only one. Obviously I don't like what's happening. Flexicrew contracts are not the best (they are actually quite bad). But what can we wanabees hope for? And we can't certainly reverse the situation, that's for sure. We might be able to change it in the future, but not now. This scheme (CTC Wings) is one of the best ways into the airlines (as I said before, apart from FPP, etc.). If after that EZY offers peanuts, it's not our fault. Someone let them do it at a certain point in the past, and it was not me or any other wanabee, that's for sure.
The reality is that many young pilots in Europe will never be on the right hand side of a jet (the majority of them I would say). It does not matter whether you start now or within 5 years time, because when I was 18 the situation was not very different. Knowing that, some of them have worked very hard to gain a place in a scheme that puts us in a better position within the airline industry (or at least, that gives us the opportunity of entering the airline industry). Don't blame us for paying 100K (it is not actually, it is 79K), don't blame us for accepting flexi crew contracts. We have no choice if we want to follow our dreams. We are not rich either, some of us have been saving every peny (euro cents in my case) we could.
I am not trying to convince anybody that CTC is the best FTO out there or that they deal with EZY is good. I am just saying that, considering the current situation, they are a very good opportunity for wanabees and, let me say this, a very fair and well-structured opportunity. Oh, and referring to one of the comments above, CTC never promised me a job or a salary of 60K a year. They were and have always been very honest.
This is my point of view, however some of you might think different. But I come from a place where FO salaries are worse than the Flexicrew contract, where the 50% of the graduated pilots are unemployed and where 60% of the FTO closed down in the past two years.
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What should we do, then? I haven't found any optimistic message from you and I have tried hard. You are against CTC, against the Flybe MPL... what would you do if you were a wanabee? I haven't seen a good reason why people shouldn't join CTC or other cadet programmes (a real one, I mean).
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I personally love flying and the aviation sector. I have a PPL license since 2009 and I work for a Spanish major airline. I know the industry quite well and have done lots of research, talked to many pilots and visited several schools. Hope this helps
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If after that EZY offers peanuts, it's not our fault.
Can't you see that once you have invested all your money in to your training they KNOW you are desperate for any chance to build hours? They have no competition when you have 200 total time. That itself is the reason why the offer crap terms. Because they know you will take them.
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Purple Pilot, I obviously want to learn the skills, as everybody else. But my dream is to become an airline pilot, so I am interested in the fastest way (and I don't agree people with 200 h are not ready to fly an Airbus, because obviously they are, otherwise Lufthansa, BA and Air France wouldn't have cadet programmes).
The African Dude, I will say the same. Any other solution? What can we do? However it is, you will end up paying for everything and then you will desperate for flying. That's obvious. But it is for CTC cadets. and it is (much more) for any other frozen ATPL holder.
John Smith, their selection process (apart from the ones for BA, FlyBe, Lufthansa...) is one of the most demanding ones (many many other FTOs in Europe don't even have selection processes, in Spain for instance none of them have - apart from FTE, which is British actually). They have excellent results in the ATPL exams and have the best employment stats. Tell me, why is that pathetic?
The African Dude, I will say the same. Any other solution? What can we do? However it is, you will end up paying for everything and then you will desperate for flying. That's obvious. But it is for CTC cadets. and it is (much more) for any other frozen ATPL holder.
John Smith, their selection process (apart from the ones for BA, FlyBe, Lufthansa...) is one of the most demanding ones (many many other FTOs in Europe don't even have selection processes, in Spain for instance none of them have - apart from FTE, which is British actually). They have excellent results in the ATPL exams and have the best employment stats. Tell me, why is that pathetic?
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Look, vikdream, the solutions have to come from you, not me. I am merely here to pass on some experience. Whether you like what I say or not is irrelevant! The fact is, they will offer you peanuts, and they will offer it to you for a long time. If at all. Because they know you will take it. Because you are interested in the fastest way. So was I and it was a good investment for me, long-term. But not so for those a few months behind. So be careful. It is not just your short-term earnings that will be affected. Your personal life, your pension, the cumulative quality of the rest of your life relies on this gamble paying off. I am not joking when I say this. These contracts may the best you can quickly get your hands on straight out of flight school, but that doesn't mean they are good. They will set the precedent for the future terms and conditions for the rest of your career.
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Covering loan repayments over winter
For those people about to start on a Flexicrew contract, I would definitely make sure you have some other skill and therefore some other means of making money. Your life will be a whole lot less stressful if you know that were you to be stood down over the winter, you will still be able to make your loan repayments and have enough money to live. I know some might say that it's easy for me to say this but I have had first hand experience of it - there was a sizeable delay from when I finished training until when I started working and it was not fun moneywise.
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If you are looking at going integrated on an untagged scheme, CTC is the better option BUT:
1) We have a recession that is now getting very serious and will remain so until the Euro situation is sorted one way or another.
2) Wages & T&Cs are plummeting.
3) CTC is interested in churning through new cadets not ensuring that each one has a long term future at EZY et al.
Given all of the above, I really think to embark on this scheme now is a massive risk. To those that are about to start, I ask you what would make you not embark on it - TR costs increasing to £50k?; EZY paying you nothing for 1/2/3 years?; Spain not being able to make social security payments?; I am genuinely interested at what point you would choose not to spend the £100k.
1) We have a recession that is now getting very serious and will remain so until the Euro situation is sorted one way or another.
2) Wages & T&Cs are plummeting.
3) CTC is interested in churning through new cadets not ensuring that each one has a long term future at EZY et al.
Given all of the above, I really think to embark on this scheme now is a massive risk. To those that are about to start, I ask you what would make you not embark on it - TR costs increasing to £50k?; EZY paying you nothing for 1/2/3 years?; Spain not being able to make social security payments?; I am genuinely interested at what point you would choose not to spend the £100k.
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I think the tipping point might be if/when CTC stops placing it's candidates. At the moment it is the only route with a near perfect placement record.
The only reason CTC is so popular is because it places it's candidates.
The only reason CTC is so popular is because it places it's candidates.
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I agree that's why CTC is a better option than other untagged, integrated schools but going back to the placement record:
What if you got placed with no pay for a 12 month contract?
What if the TR went up to £40k?
What I'm getting at is that it can always be possible to place cadets if they're cheaper than an experienced pilot or an increasing worry - the RHS represents an income rather than a cost!
What if you got placed with no pay for a 12 month contract?
What if the TR went up to £40k?
What I'm getting at is that it can always be possible to place cadets if they're cheaper than an experienced pilot or an increasing worry - the RHS represents an income rather than a cost!
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I'd say people will accept working for free, it's better than pay to fly! The airline industry at the moment is so difficult to get into that people are willing to do just about anything to get time on type. If EZY were offering no money for a year I'm sure people would take it just to get their foot in that door. That is what the industry has come to.
I'm not saying it's right but that's the way the world is at the moment. I'm Irish and have a University degree. I have no chance in the world of getting a job with that degree I can't even get an interview for an internship without a masters! I predict flying will soon be no different. People will fly for free just to get a look in as they have to in most other walks in life.
I'm not saying it's right but that's the way the world is at the moment. I'm Irish and have a University degree. I have no chance in the world of getting a job with that degree I can't even get an interview for an internship without a masters! I predict flying will soon be no different. People will fly for free just to get a look in as they have to in most other walks in life.
Last edited by nabanoba; 17th Aug 2012 at 16:08.
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Originally Posted by vikdream
(and I don't agree people with 200 h are not ready to fly an Airbus, because obviously they are, otherwise Lufthansa, BA and Air France wouldn't have cadet programmes).
Not many.