The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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thats the sort of answer i expected, didnt want to hear it, but i think i knew already that when something looks too good to be ture it usually is! so i will steer clear i think and explore other routes into the commercial pilot world!
might see what the prospects are in the Republic of Ireland, since i live up north, could be a sensible option.
thanks for the advice!
might see what the prospects are in the Republic of Ireland, since i live up north, could be a sensible option.
thanks for the advice!
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However on the other side of the coin.
I have worked as a Captain for the same UK airline for the last 25 years. We were one of CTC's early partners and I have flown with many of CTC's cadet pilots from the very early days.
I have never failed to be impressed by the standard of those pilots who have joined us from this route, and what they lack in experience is to a significant extent made up for in their training background, CRM awareness, learning ability and general professionalism.
Many of our early cadets have not only gone on to become excellent captains, but many have gone further into training roles and more recently management positions.
As far as low hour/experience pilots is concerned we have only ever sourced from recognised training routes and particularly CTC. Outside of this route we have a minimum general requirement of around 2000 hours with at least 500 hours on jet or heavy turboprop equipment. There is no problem in finding candidates who meet those minimum requirements, and cadet pilots are always likely to come from training programmes that are recognised by our own training management and insurers.
These programmes are monitored carefully and designed to integrate with our normal career progressions.
In many respects we are no different from a lot of other companies who also from time to time operate similar schemes.
So would I recommend them? Based on my own long term experience of the end product. Yes!
Is there any guarantee of a job at the end of the course? No!
I have worked as a Captain for the same UK airline for the last 25 years. We were one of CTC's early partners and I have flown with many of CTC's cadet pilots from the very early days.
I have never failed to be impressed by the standard of those pilots who have joined us from this route, and what they lack in experience is to a significant extent made up for in their training background, CRM awareness, learning ability and general professionalism.
Many of our early cadets have not only gone on to become excellent captains, but many have gone further into training roles and more recently management positions.
As far as low hour/experience pilots is concerned we have only ever sourced from recognised training routes and particularly CTC. Outside of this route we have a minimum general requirement of around 2000 hours with at least 500 hours on jet or heavy turboprop equipment. There is no problem in finding candidates who meet those minimum requirements, and cadet pilots are always likely to come from training programmes that are recognised by our own training management and insurers.
These programmes are monitored carefully and designed to integrate with our normal career progressions.
In many respects we are no different from a lot of other companies who also from time to time operate similar schemes.
So would I recommend them? Based on my own long term experience of the end product. Yes!
Is there any guarantee of a job at the end of the course? No!
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from what i gather so far, in the past it seems CTC were an excellent route into the dream job, but now it seems the current economic climate has taken over making it a bit too much of a gamble, it will always be a gamble, but the odds seem more heavily stacked against getting a job at the end of it.
i may still go to the open day in march to see for myself, but as much as i want the job, i cant risk my familys future just to try to secure my dream.
will it help me to get as much small plane flight lessons as possible before making a firm decision on my route into the career?
the main problem is the cash, its just sooooo hard to get together the kind of money required to actually train to be a pilot in the first place!
i may still go to the open day in march to see for myself, but as much as i want the job, i cant risk my familys future just to try to secure my dream.
will it help me to get as much small plane flight lessons as possible before making a firm decision on my route into the career?
the main problem is the cash, its just sooooo hard to get together the kind of money required to actually train to be a pilot in the first place!
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Yes, absolutely!
You must do your own research and decide what is right for you in your own circumstances.
There are no easy solutions, or unfortunetaly any cheap ones anymore.
Despite the poor economic environment, there have also been legislative and regulatory changes over the last decade that has caused some confusion and indeed some delusion in the expectations of a few wannabe pilots.
There has never been anything other than a very small market for 200 hour airline pilots. Historically, pilot aspirants would work their way up through entry level jobs until their experience and hours qualified them for consideration for the positions that became available. At this level they were often competing with some of the excellent candidates that were transferring out of military careers into civilian roles. Into this mix, a few airlines would take a few pilots from recognised and integrated training schools.
These training schools were "approved" to turn out "licenced commercial pilots" with around 200-250 hours experience, with their ATPL examinations completed. The courses were integrated, single provider and full time learning schemes, with syllabuses that were recognised, overseen and approved by the state regulator.
With the introduction of JAR the licencing regime was changed so that modular students (who might previously have been termed "self improvers,") and required at least 700 hours experience to acquire a basic CPL, could now obtain that same licence with around 250 hours. In essence this brought the licensing experience based requirements, more into line with those found in other countries (particularly the USA) where the CPL was seen more as an "aerial work" licence, rather than an airline pilot qualification. As a result aerial work jobs (such as flight instruction) which could previously have been done on a PPL, now required a CPL (at slightly higher experience levels) in order to fulfill those roles.
By strict definition, it also meant that anybody clutching a CPL (with their 250 hours) could potentially be employed to sit in the right hand seat of a commercial airliner. During this same time period, the rapid expansion of new entrant "Lo-Cost" airlines meant that some new practices were introduced. One or two sought to reduce their operating costs by meeting the minimum legal requirement of putting a basic licence holder into the right hand seat. Not I hasten to add as a "First Officer" on the terms that prevailed previously, but as "pay to fly," "self employed," "entry level" etc.
The recession coupled with an extension to legal retirement ages, has rather clouded this market. In some quarters it has grown unchecked, but in many others there is still a recognised level of experience and qualification needed for these jobs.
Unfortunetaly (and perhaps understandably) it has led a great many people to believe that if you get 200 hours flying experience anywhere in the world, and a licence, airlines will be tripping over themselves to hire you. The truth is they won't, they aren't, and they never have.
There are always routes into aviation, and those routes will differ from individual to individual based on their own resources, ability, luck and experience. That has always been the case as well.
My own view is that at the present moment in time, in the past, and almost certainly in the future the best hope of an airline career with only a couple of hundred hours is via an integrated course through a training / airline partner programme.
Outside of this route, 200 hours will get you an aerial work licence which hopefully will give you the tool to acquire the necessary experience to be considered for airline pilot vacancies at the requisite level, many years down the road. Having said that, jobs everywhere are few and far between. They rarely remunerate at much above a survivable level, and progression can often be thwarted by the "fast track" integrated programmes, where those programmes are economically beneficial to the partner airlines.
That is why I answered the way I did. Of course the option is simply not there for everybody, and many people will consider it unpalatable, undesirable or simply beyond their means.
You must do your own research and decide what is right for you in your own circumstances.
There are no easy solutions, or unfortunetaly any cheap ones anymore.
Despite the poor economic environment, there have also been legislative and regulatory changes over the last decade that has caused some confusion and indeed some delusion in the expectations of a few wannabe pilots.
There has never been anything other than a very small market for 200 hour airline pilots. Historically, pilot aspirants would work their way up through entry level jobs until their experience and hours qualified them for consideration for the positions that became available. At this level they were often competing with some of the excellent candidates that were transferring out of military careers into civilian roles. Into this mix, a few airlines would take a few pilots from recognised and integrated training schools.
These training schools were "approved" to turn out "licenced commercial pilots" with around 200-250 hours experience, with their ATPL examinations completed. The courses were integrated, single provider and full time learning schemes, with syllabuses that were recognised, overseen and approved by the state regulator.
With the introduction of JAR the licencing regime was changed so that modular students (who might previously have been termed "self improvers,") and required at least 700 hours experience to acquire a basic CPL, could now obtain that same licence with around 250 hours. In essence this brought the licensing experience based requirements, more into line with those found in other countries (particularly the USA) where the CPL was seen more as an "aerial work" licence, rather than an airline pilot qualification. As a result aerial work jobs (such as flight instruction) which could previously have been done on a PPL, now required a CPL (at slightly higher experience levels) in order to fulfill those roles.
By strict definition, it also meant that anybody clutching a CPL (with their 250 hours) could potentially be employed to sit in the right hand seat of a commercial airliner. During this same time period, the rapid expansion of new entrant "Lo-Cost" airlines meant that some new practices were introduced. One or two sought to reduce their operating costs by meeting the minimum legal requirement of putting a basic licence holder into the right hand seat. Not I hasten to add as a "First Officer" on the terms that prevailed previously, but as "pay to fly," "self employed," "entry level" etc.
The recession coupled with an extension to legal retirement ages, has rather clouded this market. In some quarters it has grown unchecked, but in many others there is still a recognised level of experience and qualification needed for these jobs.
Unfortunetaly (and perhaps understandably) it has led a great many people to believe that if you get 200 hours flying experience anywhere in the world, and a licence, airlines will be tripping over themselves to hire you. The truth is they won't, they aren't, and they never have.
There are always routes into aviation, and those routes will differ from individual to individual based on their own resources, ability, luck and experience. That has always been the case as well.
My own view is that at the present moment in time, in the past, and almost certainly in the future the best hope of an airline career with only a couple of hundred hours is via an integrated course through a training / airline partner programme.
Outside of this route, 200 hours will get you an aerial work licence which hopefully will give you the tool to acquire the necessary experience to be considered for airline pilot vacancies at the requisite level, many years down the road. Having said that, jobs everywhere are few and far between. They rarely remunerate at much above a survivable level, and progression can often be thwarted by the "fast track" integrated programmes, where those programmes are economically beneficial to the partner airlines.
That is why I answered the way I did. Of course the option is simply not there for everybody, and many people will consider it unpalatable, undesirable or simply beyond their means.
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so by the sounds of it, getting as many lessons first, and possible trying to get my PPL (maybe get a loan to do this as quickly as possible?) would really help in the longrun?
i take it people with the PPL are more likely to get into such schemes?
is there a thread on FTE Jerez here anywhere? im still finding my way around the site!
oh and thanks to everyone so far for their help, it has in my opinion all been constructive, which is what i wanted, so i am very pleased!
dont suppose there are any very very rich people here reading this who would fancy lending me about 100k? worth a try i suppose!!!!!
i take it people with the PPL are more likely to get into such schemes?
is there a thread on FTE Jerez here anywhere? im still finding my way around the site!
oh and thanks to everyone so far for their help, it has in my opinion all been constructive, which is what i wanted, so i am very pleased!
dont suppose there are any very very rich people here reading this who would fancy lending me about 100k? worth a try i suppose!!!!!
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just an update,
i sent CTC an enquiry via their website, and they were good enough to take the time to get back to me and answer my questions very honsetly, so i would just like to say that was very pleasing.
hats off to them! weather i go for ti with them or not is still be be decided, but i am more likely to go to their open day now!
i sent CTC an enquiry via their website, and they were good enough to take the time to get back to me and answer my questions very honsetly, so i would just like to say that was very pleasing.
hats off to them! weather i go for ti with them or not is still be be decided, but i am more likely to go to their open day now!
answer my questions very honsetly
Watch out for very clever spin. There is often more in what is not said than is what actually said.
Also some statements will be put in such a way that you will gain a desired inference which might not be the true picture. e.g. All of our aircraft have blah blah blah. Designed to make you think that other provider's aircraft don't have blah blah blah when in fact they do.
Places like CTC and Oxford have very slick PR machines.
Caveat Emptor
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Yea we were fed the "honesty" too.
Things have changed folks. CTC is not producing a high quality product anymore. The low cost operators are about to be fed some pretty poor products, but they wont see the product for 6 -12 months (plus the holdpool wait).
Eventually JAA/CAA will be forced into doing what the FAA, NZCAA and some other ICAO states have done, that is introduce an hours requirement to fly a jet. Usually 1500hrs. (Australia CASA is investigating this now).
In my opinion it is becoming recognised the Oxfords and CTC's cannot produce a quality product and still make money. CTC made a loss in NZ when they were producing a quality product (2006ish), now they have to make money at all costs.
Things have changed folks. CTC is not producing a high quality product anymore. The low cost operators are about to be fed some pretty poor products, but they wont see the product for 6 -12 months (plus the holdpool wait).
Eventually JAA/CAA will be forced into doing what the FAA, NZCAA and some other ICAO states have done, that is introduce an hours requirement to fly a jet. Usually 1500hrs. (Australia CASA is investigating this now).
In my opinion it is becoming recognised the Oxfords and CTC's cannot produce a quality product and still make money. CTC made a loss in NZ when they were producing a quality product (2006ish), now they have to make money at all costs.
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'poor product'
stematically , what evidence do you have to back up this 'poor product' that you speak of? The majority of the time, captains that have flew with ex CTC cadets have nothing but good things to say about them.Surely if many are passing IR and CPL first attempt they are meeting standards surely? Would be greatfull if you could maybe elaborate on your previous point.
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The African Dude and wirefly84. Fortunately you went through CTC when they had the money and quality to spend. Your courses were complete and you had good training. So
Unfortunately the standard has dropped since. CTCNZ was not making money and there were some severe cuts in the training. The new version 10 syllabus is only 148.5 hrs and all other hour requirements are on minimums. They don't even get a full lesson on PFL'S. Version 10 you have to log lots of IF time on your VFR navs to meet the IF time required. (even if you didn't really fly 1.5 IF of a 1.8 VFR nav.
So please re-read my post... "CTC is not producing a high quality product anymore.... but they wont see the product for 6 -12 months" That probably dosn't include you guys.
None of the new Syllabus Cadets have hit the market yet... Time will tell and until then CTC will live in it's reputation only. Thats where you guys have been advocates for CTC.
Unfortunately the standard has dropped since. CTCNZ was not making money and there were some severe cuts in the training. The new version 10 syllabus is only 148.5 hrs and all other hour requirements are on minimums. They don't even get a full lesson on PFL'S. Version 10 you have to log lots of IF time on your VFR navs to meet the IF time required. (even if you didn't really fly 1.5 IF of a 1.8 VFR nav.
So please re-read my post... "CTC is not producing a high quality product anymore.... but they wont see the product for 6 -12 months" That probably dosn't include you guys.
None of the new Syllabus Cadets have hit the market yet... Time will tell and until then CTC will live in it's reputation only. Thats where you guys have been advocates for CTC.
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Just looking at the syllabus now... Version 6.4 syllabus has two PFL lessons. The first lesson is just flying the pattern the second is dedicated to the emergency checks and procedures.
Syllabus Version 10 has only one lesson that covers everything (FJ018) PFL's. So I was wrong they still have PFL's its just half the amount.
I'm beginning to repeat myself here.. NONE of the new Syllabus guys are doing ME CPL's and IR's yet...
Factors against maintaining a high pass rate are
1 Less training (Syllabus hours have been cut back to minimum)
2 Selection is not as selective.. 1-3% selection rates in 2005-06. Now based on who can pay.
3 There are no Cadets removed from the course due to poor performance
4 Instructor experience decreased markedly in the last 6 months
Syllabus Version 10 has only one lesson that covers everything (FJ018) PFL's. So I was wrong they still have PFL's its just half the amount.
I'm beginning to repeat myself here.. NONE of the new Syllabus guys are doing ME CPL's and IR's yet...
Factors against maintaining a high pass rate are
1 Less training (Syllabus hours have been cut back to minimum)
2 Selection is not as selective.. 1-3% selection rates in 2005-06. Now based on who can pay.
3 There are no Cadets removed from the course due to poor performance
4 Instructor experience decreased markedly in the last 6 months
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Ummm O.K
Most of what I have said is common knowledge and easily accessable. You must be living in fairy land if you can't see it. Look it up for yourself
Sources are
1. Syllabus Versions 6.4 and Version 10.
2. You would know! You tell us how to get into CTC if you "fail" selection.
3. Ask the CP's before about CP50 this question. "How many were kicked off your course?"
4. Ask your instructor how many experienced instructors have left in the last 12 months. (ie Multi Instrument instructors)
A smart cookie like yourself should be able to find the evidence and look at it objectively. Or is the selection process worse than I thought?
Most of what I have said is common knowledge and easily accessable. You must be living in fairy land if you can't see it. Look it up for yourself
Sources are
1. Syllabus Versions 6.4 and Version 10.
2. You would know! You tell us how to get into CTC if you "fail" selection.
3. Ask the CP's before about CP50 this question. "How many were kicked off your course?"
4. Ask your instructor how many experienced instructors have left in the last 12 months. (ie Multi Instrument instructors)
A smart cookie like yourself should be able to find the evidence and look at it objectively. Or is the selection process worse than I thought?
Scott Flyer
I don't know if all of Systematically's statements are correct but I have heard that somethings are being doubled up, like doing dual navs under the hood so that the flight time can be counted towards both cross country nav time and IF time. If this is true it sounds a bit dodgy to me.
It seems likely that some of what Systematically is saying might be true.
I don't know if all of Systematically's statements are correct but I have heard that somethings are being doubled up, like doing dual navs under the hood so that the flight time can be counted towards both cross country nav time and IF time. If this is true it sounds a bit dodgy to me.
It seems likely that some of what Systematically is saying might be true.
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Hi All, just wondering what downsides associated with training with CTC? See they have an excellent placement record, is this primarily with Easyjet?
Also, they seem to shout about their flight test results a good bit, but they never seem to identify source in mags such as airliner world...always make one sceptical?
Also, they seem to shout about their flight test results a good bit, but they never seem to identify source in mags such as airliner world...always make one sceptical?
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Hi All, just wondering what downsides associated with training with CTC? See they have an excellent placement record,
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Hey
Just to comment on some points that Systematically has raised. Most of what he/she said is actually true (like the reduction in syllibus hours to minimums, no one gets kicked off anymore and the instructors leaving). But what systematically has forgotten is the fact that the instructors have worked very hard to maintain standards. They often do a lot more work per sortie and are very professional despite the difficulties.
Over the last few years there have been some dedicated instructors that care about your future and go the extra mile, without extra pay or reward. (in fact at times management has fired or reduced their hours in the last 12 months).
So don't forget to buy them a bottle of wine (or two).
Just to comment on some points that Systematically has raised. Most of what he/she said is actually true (like the reduction in syllibus hours to minimums, no one gets kicked off anymore and the instructors leaving). But what systematically has forgotten is the fact that the instructors have worked very hard to maintain standards. They often do a lot more work per sortie and are very professional despite the difficulties.
Over the last few years there have been some dedicated instructors that care about your future and go the extra mile, without extra pay or reward. (in fact at times management has fired or reduced their hours in the last 12 months).
So don't forget to buy them a bottle of wine (or two).