The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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There is a risk of CTC going bust as well which you need to insure against. CTC is showing all the hallmarks of some of the training companies which existed 15 years ago (SFT ?) - desperate to get involved in all aspects of aviation. Eventually ran out of money. Ensure you get to see CTC financial accounts and get an independent assesment as to whether they are viable any more
The next thing I am expecting is CTC Cadets flying for CTC Airways - a new airline flying state of the art aircraft, using state of the art pilots, trained on state of the art equipment by state of the art instructors. The callsign will be 'Pyramid' e.g. 'Heathrow departure this is Pyramid 101 req start and clearance to Hamilton, NZ'. The trunk routes are London - Southampton (cadet access to banks), London - Bristol (cadet exams), London - Hamilton, New Zealand (CTC Airways is ETOPS approved), Bristol, UK - Hamilton, NZ (ETOPS - for cadets to get to do exams), Bournemouth, UK - Hamilton, NZ (Cadet IR test)
Edited to correct spelling (and add a little humour)!
The next thing I am expecting is CTC Cadets flying for CTC Airways - a new airline flying state of the art aircraft, using state of the art pilots, trained on state of the art equipment by state of the art instructors. The callsign will be 'Pyramid' e.g. 'Heathrow departure this is Pyramid 101 req start and clearance to Hamilton, NZ'. The trunk routes are London - Southampton (cadet access to banks), London - Bristol (cadet exams), London - Hamilton, New Zealand (CTC Airways is ETOPS approved), Bristol, UK - Hamilton, NZ (ETOPS - for cadets to get to do exams), Bournemouth, UK - Hamilton, NZ (Cadet IR test)
Edited to correct spelling (and add a little humour)!
Last edited by Herc708; 14th Jul 2010 at 00:19.
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Money really isn't an issue for a young airline pilot - I promise!
Sounds smug, I know
Well aren't you just the lucky one, New FO. I'm sure life is very nice for you in your job at BA. How wonderful it must have been to come out with three instant job offers - those were the days, eh? I'm sure you're very nice really, but if you read back over your first post can you not see that it's oozing arrogance? Particularly as you then admit that you know there are ex-trainees facing tough times?
If you could just see through your smugness for a second, what you appear to not have understood is that many of the posts here (and indeed many from ex-CTCers) are here not to be 'negative' for fun, but to provide a dose of realism to balance out the relentless flight school marketing machines.
Yes I did CTC, I have a very nice life, great salary, more just in allowances than my missus clears in total from her (respectable) job, living in a European country where the pilot union has negotiated the most ridiculous tax breaks. I could go on. So money isn't an issue for me either (at the moment) and the job is great and the people I work with are good - very positive. Isn't that nice?
But, as you probably know full well, it doesn't quite work out like that for everybody. Not long ago I was chatting to an ex-cadet now on FlexiCrew who said he was having to borrow money from family to afford to live, because his monthly HSBC repayments and bills were more than the pay he was earning from his flying contract. I've heard stories from friends about bumping into other ex-cadets on their way out of bankruptcy hearings, after HSBC have come chasing them for money while they've been sat around in the hold pool for goodness knows how long, waiting for that first contract to come along. I know some who have been stressed out and involved with lawyers, trying to negotiate with the bank for months. And all of these are people who obtained the funding back in the good old days when HSBC were still offering the whole amount unsecured.
The point I'm trying to make is that I (and others) are not being 'negative' for the sake of it, but trying to point out that spending that kind of money on flight training is a huge risk even when times are good. And the PR and marketing is so good, so promising and so reassuring that you don't realise until you hit the bad times just what an enormous risk it is/was. I started CTC in the middle of a big hiring boom, thought it couldn't go wrong, and ended up only just scraping into a job as the bottom fell out of the hiring market. Do you think if I could have seen that happening, and all the worry and stress that came because of it, I (and many others) would have gone through with it? I would have run a mile. And how do you think I'd have been if, on top of that, my parents' home had been on the line because of it? I'd probably have been asking for directions to the nearest cliff.
I'd love to see you in a room full of ex-cadets, many of whom have been working on FlexiCrew deals, and try and convince them that money isn't an issue. Maybe not for you, but for others it most definitely is.
I'll reiterate what I've said before. I enjoyed the CTC course very much, living in NZ for a year was great, the instruction was (mostly) absolutely excellent, it did what it said on the tin. If people feel it's for them, and have calculated and understood the risks involved, the great - by all means go for it. You'll have a great time and, if it works out, you'll have the job you dreamed of at the end of it. I'd have no problem recommending it. Better times appear to be on the way, and this can only be good news for CTC and other schools. The problem is that many people DON'T understand the risks, which then become apparent when things go wrong and it's too late.
Hopefully you don't feel too 'irritated' after reading this, old chap, but I make no apologies for my views on the matter.
Just a few quick questions regarding your posts...
Support for what? The decision to spend £100k+ just because, once upon a time, it happened to work for you?
Explain what you mean by this? 'Focus on the light at the end of the tunnel'? As far as I can see, you mean adopting an attitude of "don't worry lads, things will be alright - bury your heads in the sand for now." A flight school marketing department would love to have you on board.
What are you referring to with this? Can't see any slating going on here, just advice.
Enjoy your nice life at BA, let's hope BASSA don't bring it to a shuddering halt and you end up at the back of the job queue...
If you could just see through your smugness for a second, what you appear to not have understood is that many of the posts here (and indeed many from ex-CTCers) are here not to be 'negative' for fun, but to provide a dose of realism to balance out the relentless flight school marketing machines.
Yes I did CTC, I have a very nice life, great salary, more just in allowances than my missus clears in total from her (respectable) job, living in a European country where the pilot union has negotiated the most ridiculous tax breaks. I could go on. So money isn't an issue for me either (at the moment) and the job is great and the people I work with are good - very positive. Isn't that nice?
But, as you probably know full well, it doesn't quite work out like that for everybody. Not long ago I was chatting to an ex-cadet now on FlexiCrew who said he was having to borrow money from family to afford to live, because his monthly HSBC repayments and bills were more than the pay he was earning from his flying contract. I've heard stories from friends about bumping into other ex-cadets on their way out of bankruptcy hearings, after HSBC have come chasing them for money while they've been sat around in the hold pool for goodness knows how long, waiting for that first contract to come along. I know some who have been stressed out and involved with lawyers, trying to negotiate with the bank for months. And all of these are people who obtained the funding back in the good old days when HSBC were still offering the whole amount unsecured.
The point I'm trying to make is that I (and others) are not being 'negative' for the sake of it, but trying to point out that spending that kind of money on flight training is a huge risk even when times are good. And the PR and marketing is so good, so promising and so reassuring that you don't realise until you hit the bad times just what an enormous risk it is/was. I started CTC in the middle of a big hiring boom, thought it couldn't go wrong, and ended up only just scraping into a job as the bottom fell out of the hiring market. Do you think if I could have seen that happening, and all the worry and stress that came because of it, I (and many others) would have gone through with it? I would have run a mile. And how do you think I'd have been if, on top of that, my parents' home had been on the line because of it? I'd probably have been asking for directions to the nearest cliff.
I'd love to see you in a room full of ex-cadets, many of whom have been working on FlexiCrew deals, and try and convince them that money isn't an issue. Maybe not for you, but for others it most definitely is.
I'll reiterate what I've said before. I enjoyed the CTC course very much, living in NZ for a year was great, the instruction was (mostly) absolutely excellent, it did what it said on the tin. If people feel it's for them, and have calculated and understood the risks involved, the great - by all means go for it. You'll have a great time and, if it works out, you'll have the job you dreamed of at the end of it. I'd have no problem recommending it. Better times appear to be on the way, and this can only be good news for CTC and other schools. The problem is that many people DON'T understand the risks, which then become apparent when things go wrong and it's too late.
Hopefully you don't feel too 'irritated' after reading this, old chap, but I make no apologies for my views on the matter.
Just a few quick questions regarding your posts...
i have a main reason for sending this; to encourage support!
they just need to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel.
Slating someone because they've got an ATPL!
Enjoy your nice life at BA, let's hope BASSA don't bring it to a shuddering halt and you end up at the back of the job queue...
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they just need to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel. because there is a light, a bloody big shiney one! but you boys keep getting in the way of it for these lads and girls.
My point is that you are declaring all is sweetness and light, when in reality you are saying that you did very well thankyou very much so everyone else can expect to achieve the same. The blunt truth is not everyone will enjoy the luck you had. Telling people on such a well read forum that money is not a problem for junior airline pilots is at best subjective, and at worst purposely misleading. If you borrow £100k you need a job paying around £50k a year and you need it fast upon completion of training. How many jobs that fit the bill are on offer today?
I'm all for positivity but you have to be sensitive to the readership in these forums and the basic truth is that times are very hard for new recruits. Do not enter into flying training unless you can afford the worst case scenario - repayments of over £1000 a month with no flying job on offer.
However, glad to hear you are enjoying BA
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I was fortunate enough to go straight from CTC into a jet at the worlds favorite too. However, money is still an issue; you can effectively halve your salary when you take in to account your loan repayments and if you need a mortgage then banks just laugh at you. It might be fun if you are young and don't mind sharing a flat (but the novelty of that wears off after a while) or your parents can throw cash at you to help with deposits etc.
So what am I saying; yes the job is awesome and I wouldn't change it for the world, but money is still an issue having gone straight in to a jet job during the good years, when loans were unsecured and proper jobs were up for grabs at the end. Things are a bit different now, and I would definitely think much longer and harder than I did back in 2005. I was fortunate but I am still skint and that isn't due to crap financial management!
So what am I saying; yes the job is awesome and I wouldn't change it for the world, but money is still an issue having gone straight in to a jet job during the good years, when loans were unsecured and proper jobs were up for grabs at the end. Things are a bit different now, and I would definitely think much longer and harder than I did back in 2005. I was fortunate but I am still skint and that isn't due to crap financial management!
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CTC wings cadet insurance
Hi F/O UFO,
Thanks for the advice. I've asked for a quote from BALPA so fingers crossed they'll give me a good deal.
Is there anything else about CTC that you could give me advice on? Anything I may need a heads up on that CTC don't tell us? Any info is appreciated, thanks.
Thanks for the advice. I've asked for a quote from BALPA so fingers crossed they'll give me a good deal.
Is there anything else about CTC that you could give me advice on? Anything I may need a heads up on that CTC don't tell us? Any info is appreciated, thanks.
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CTC Phase 2 & 3
Hi All,
I have my phase 2/3 on Tuesday. First and foremost, is anyone hear attending the day at the same time? Also, are there any last minute hints and tips?
I've had a few goes at the European Pilot Training & Selection IPAS test, gone over some quick mental maths etc. What I'm really worried about is the interview, I've searched high&low for information on that, though I imagine each one will be different. Though I imagine they're going to ask plenty of 'quality' type questions, does anyone know what technical ones they may ask, such as what is EasyJet's current fleet expansion plans etc.
I have done my research, and I've read many-a post on this thread, but any last minute help as my panic sinks in is much appreciated.
Alex
I have my phase 2/3 on Tuesday. First and foremost, is anyone hear attending the day at the same time? Also, are there any last minute hints and tips?
I've had a few goes at the European Pilot Training & Selection IPAS test, gone over some quick mental maths etc. What I'm really worried about is the interview, I've searched high&low for information on that, though I imagine each one will be different. Though I imagine they're going to ask plenty of 'quality' type questions, does anyone know what technical ones they may ask, such as what is EasyJet's current fleet expansion plans etc.
I have done my research, and I've read many-a post on this thread, but any last minute help as my panic sinks in is much appreciated.
Alex
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That's an incredibly simple yet important piece of information. Made me smile a bit, I'll do my best to keep calm. Nervousness during the tests will lead to mistakes, and in the interview will no doubt lead to be being portrayed as a damp lettuce.
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a levels??
Hey Guys
Was just wondering if anyone knows if a-levels are an essential, I have a BTEC in graphic design (completely irrelevant to flying.....i know!!) however i scored highly completing the course with a merit, merit, distinction grade, equal to around 280 ucas points (I believe).
Would this be suitable for a CTC cadet application or will i have to go back to college and do some a-levels?
Was just wondering if anyone knows if a-levels are an essential, I have a BTEC in graphic design (completely irrelevant to flying.....i know!!) however i scored highly completing the course with a merit, merit, distinction grade, equal to around 280 ucas points (I believe).
Would this be suitable for a CTC cadet application or will i have to go back to college and do some a-levels?
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For what its worth I heard rumor that cadets are still being placed (with easyjet, on flexicrew?) - but that there is a 1+ year waiting list.
Last edited by Air_One; 11th Aug 2010 at 08:25.
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Nearly 150 have gone to eJ since January on FlexiCrew contracts.
The waiting list if you happen to be "lucky" (e.g. delayed during training) is around 8 months, or closer to 13 if you happen to go through basic training quickly.
edit - 'Gone to eJ' means 'accepted type rating courses'. 44 start during the next 3 months.
The waiting list if you happen to be "lucky" (e.g. delayed during training) is around 8 months, or closer to 13 if you happen to go through basic training quickly.
edit - 'Gone to eJ' means 'accepted type rating courses'. 44 start during the next 3 months.
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Probably you have already read a question like this one but I'm really confused about the cost of the CTC Wings Cadets. What would be the final cost? £78-£80k? Or more?
Ah, and an other question: is requested to do physic exercise at the selection like with OAA?
Ah, and an other question: is requested to do physic exercise at the selection like with OAA?
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The training cost 69K + Foundation course (17 400 NS$ = 8000 pounds).
You will have to pay for your food and transportation both in NZ and in the UK.
Plan on 10K at least.
After your AQC you will then go onto your TR. If things remain the same, you'll be asked to contribute towards it up to 8K to fly for easyJet.
So far, 95 000 pounds!
Bearing in mind that as a flexi crew you'll only be paid 1200 a month for the first 8 months, then 23 pounds an hour IF you are kept on.
My point of view : Outstanding training, amazing facilities and some real job prospect after, but if you have to borrow the amount, probably not the best option.
You will have to pay for your food and transportation both in NZ and in the UK.
Plan on 10K at least.
After your AQC you will then go onto your TR. If things remain the same, you'll be asked to contribute towards it up to 8K to fly for easyJet.
So far, 95 000 pounds!
Bearing in mind that as a flexi crew you'll only be paid 1200 a month for the first 8 months, then 23 pounds an hour IF you are kept on.
My point of view : Outstanding training, amazing facilities and some real job prospect after, but if you have to borrow the amount, probably not the best option.
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Well the many CTC trained pilots I have flown with over the last 10 years or so, seemed to have been selected and trained very well. They have readily adapted into our operating environment. I am not aware of a single failure on that score. If this is "poor training" I am very impressed!
Most airlines fall into the "budget airline" category these days at the 737/ A320 equipment level. Whatever the Terms and conditions, I think many of these trainees are looking to progress on to the next rung of the ladder, bearing in mind that most ladders have more than one rung.
Nobody will take your parents house provided you or they keep up the contractual conditions agreed when part of its equity was secured as the basis for a loan. Parents tend to have a lot of experience in this type of thing, and you shouldn't under rate either their experience, common sense or preservation instincts generally.
Most airlines fall into the "budget airline" category these days at the 737/ A320 equipment level. Whatever the Terms and conditions, I think many of these trainees are looking to progress on to the next rung of the ladder, bearing in mind that most ladders have more than one rung.
Nobody will take your parents house provided you or they keep up the contractual conditions agreed when part of its equity was secured as the basis for a loan. Parents tend to have a lot of experience in this type of thing, and you shouldn't under rate either their experience, common sense or preservation instincts generally.
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Yes most of the CTC/OAA cadets HAVE been trained well. At least they WERE trained well. There have been a lot of changes to the way CTC/OAA train due to financial restraints. They now have to make money and their training and quality has dropped dramatically. Although they will still quote previous pass rates etc. So you may not see the decline for a little while.
Yes they WERE selected. In 2006 only 1% got through the selection and that 1% could get an unsecured loan from the banks... since the GFC banks will only loan to those that can afford to loose their house. The selection is now one question... Who's paying for the course.
The cadet numbers dropped dramatically until CTC/OAA decided to take anyone that could pay or get a secured loan.
Parents are putting up their houses. They will do anything to give their children a chance at achieving their dreams. You shouldn't under rate their willingness to risk their house for their children. Cadets have become bankrupt.
Yes they WERE selected. In 2006 only 1% got through the selection and that 1% could get an unsecured loan from the banks... since the GFC banks will only loan to those that can afford to loose their house. The selection is now one question... Who's paying for the course.
The cadet numbers dropped dramatically until CTC/OAA decided to take anyone that could pay or get a secured loan.
Parents are putting up their houses. They will do anything to give their children a chance at achieving their dreams. You shouldn't under rate their willingness to risk their house for their children. Cadets have become bankrupt.