The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Agree with the guys above. From CP3 through to CP19 or so there was an average of around one cadet per course getting chopped. Not every course lost someone, but I remember one CP in particular losing more than one cadet. Nearly all got the bullet during the IR phase in BOH. The Duchess wasn't quite as helpful as the Twinstar when it comes to NDB tracking!
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I dont know how they can quote a 1% failure rate. Where was this from? (The selection rates were about 1%) The failure rates up to about CP59 were averaging one per CP. One CP i know of lost 3!!. So the average is at least 10%.
My point is: there has been none chopped since cp59 when the financial purse strings were tightened... The NZ division was just about closed because they were not making money. Now they have to at all costs. Chopping cadets means loosing income.
And yes the selection process is a little less involved now. It costs money to have long selection processes.
My point is: there has been none chopped since cp59 when the financial purse strings were tightened... The NZ division was just about closed because they were not making money. Now they have to at all costs. Chopping cadets means loosing income.
And yes the selection process is a little less involved now. It costs money to have long selection processes.
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Don't need to see it differently... A new scheme that sees the cadets pay even more! (Probably because the training quality has deteriorated and CTC cant afford the odd X or Y flight anymore).
The advantage of this situation is we don't get kicked off anymore.
Beers anyone?
The advantage of this situation is we don't get kicked off anymore.
Beers anyone?
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Bitter pill
Whether the training has deteriorated or not, it's a side issue really and I'm not going to get involved.
The appeal of forking out for foundation course, training then this new "contract" with Easy is zero. If you are a current iCP Cadet then you're arguably at less of a "disadvantage" as, once you're through the flying, your wings colleagues are not getting a type rating so you're in the same boat ie, pay for it.
Granted, it's not the full amount but it's still a wad of notes. The Ts & Cs are the real knife to the throat.
Some (many) of us are stuck. In the brown stuff really.
Repayment of loans may be possible or living may be possible, not both !
I've heard this "if we all stand together, we'll force them to offer a better deal" type of chat and realistically, that's never going to happen as it only takes a few folk to hand over more cash and the viscious cycle continues.
Should I see the glass as half full.... ? I do try but really, I can't make this look good
The appeal of forking out for foundation course, training then this new "contract" with Easy is zero. If you are a current iCP Cadet then you're arguably at less of a "disadvantage" as, once you're through the flying, your wings colleagues are not getting a type rating so you're in the same boat ie, pay for it.
Granted, it's not the full amount but it's still a wad of notes. The Ts & Cs are the real knife to the throat.
Some (many) of us are stuck. In the brown stuff really.
Repayment of loans may be possible or living may be possible, not both !
I've heard this "if we all stand together, we'll force them to offer a better deal" type of chat and realistically, that's never going to happen as it only takes a few folk to hand over more cash and the viscious cycle continues.
Should I see the glass as half full.... ? I do try but really, I can't make this look good
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The trouble is that the writing has been on the wall for a while now and really anybody who signed up for the CTC scheme from early mid 2008 onwards must have known they were taking a huge gamble if they'd done even the slightest bit of research. What worries me more is that people are STILL signing up for the scheme. What do eJ need to offer before people wake up?!
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Ladies and Gents please wake up. You are all fooling yourselves! I'm a current EasyJet pilot and I have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who have come out of CTC this year to find themselves left well and truly in the poo.
Unfortunately for all you guys coming from CTC next year and onwards you will find far less sympathy from the pilot population at EasyJet, you guys got yourselves into huge debt in the middle of a recession with airlines going bust. Honestly what were you thinking? What is even more baffling is that CTC are still sending full courses out to NZ, again what are you people thinking?! It makes me question you ability to operate a aircraft at commercial level, clearly you must be slightly mentally unstable to sign up to this course with the industry in its current state. On top of that you are directly affecting the T&C's of the pilots you one day hope to be working with. Are you all that stupid and selfish? Of course when you finally finish you will be demanding the support of the current Easy pilots to support your cause.
Abandon hope all ye who enter the great CTC machine
Unfortunately for all you guys coming from CTC next year and onwards you will find far less sympathy from the pilot population at EasyJet, you guys got yourselves into huge debt in the middle of a recession with airlines going bust. Honestly what were you thinking? What is even more baffling is that CTC are still sending full courses out to NZ, again what are you people thinking?! It makes me question you ability to operate a aircraft at commercial level, clearly you must be slightly mentally unstable to sign up to this course with the industry in its current state. On top of that you are directly affecting the T&C's of the pilots you one day hope to be working with. Are you all that stupid and selfish? Of course when you finally finish you will be demanding the support of the current Easy pilots to support your cause.
Abandon hope all ye who enter the great CTC machine
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In reply to the beginning of your post and to make it clear to others;
The cadets that are starting TR's now, started their CTC training in Summer/Autumn 2007. No sign or very little sign of a recession and a great placement history with funding through an unsecured loan. These are the guys (and gals) that have been left to consider whether they want to continue working in temporary jobs, whilst paying off their loan (without being able to afford to live) OR going bankrupt (whilst being able to afford to live)
The cadets that started in 2008 should have seen this coming and stayed clear. However, at the time, CTC were the giver of all news great and encouraged young impressionable "kids" to start, still with an unsecured loan.
Let's make one thing clear here, the folks going through TR and Line Training, and in the hold pool at the moment have UNSECURED LOANS. Mummy and Daddy did NOT pay, they are NOT going to lose their house and it is up to little Jonny to find the money, or face bankruptcy.
So,
Cadet A (let's call him Steve) has finished his CPL/IR with fATPL. He's working in a temp job somewhere, earning under a grand a month (not enough to repay his loan even), has rent and bills to pay (so can't save anything) and has just been given this latest offer.
Steve deferred his repayments to HSBC for 6 months, hoping that a job would come along on the old scheme, where he would do his TR for nothing, then 6 months line training on £1000 a month, then a FO position on £36k a year. That would be great. Instead, the ONLY option available to enter an airline (ie. a job with a large enough salary to repay his loan) is with CTC as a Flexicrew pilot.
Now, I don't want to go into the details of the agreement, those of you who have seen it know what it involves. But basically, it's a lump sum up front followed by pretty poor pay for a long time after. As I said before, he has a choice, to take it, and hope that there's something more to follow or to turn it down.
TURN IT DOWN!!!! I hear you all shout....
Ah, but then Kevin, (who doesn't really talk to the other cadets, and has very rich parents) decides he can live on pittance and takes the job. Where does that leave Steve - at the back of the holdpool again, with no prospects for a long time, still in a temp job, still not paying off his loan and ultimately to bankruptcy.
So why should he take it? Even if he can fund the initial cost, then he still won't have enough to live on and pay back his loan. But - like the guy that's gone to Africa, like all of you who started out somewhere - he has F all to lose. Even if he joins with the rest of his CP in saying no, there will be people to fill his place, other cadets, from OAA, modular cadets etc etc the list is endless. So he has to say yes. He'll beg and borrow from family for the 10k and say yes.
Unfortunately, a few select individuals keep harping on about saying no, and you're degrading Ts and Cs for all blah blah, yes they probably are. But who set those Ts and Cs in the first place? Why not turn your anger onto those who make the decisions, join Balpa and actually acheive something, like securing your OWN job, because this affects every single one of you.
Easyjet know the exact position these cadets are in, and exploit it to the point of slavery. The only people that can stop it are those within eJ itself and BALPA. CTC cadets don't have BALPA recognition so they can't do anything.
What you have to remember is that CTC actually provided and STILL provide cadets of high quality and caliber (I know, I've flown with them as well as other "cadets" from other FTO's), although they are low houred they are good at the job, learn quickly and try hard. The Captains at eJ obviously don't care if they are sat next to someone with bankruptcy looming and stress induced fatigue, who has flu but can't take the day off because they don't get sick pay and they have rent to pay. When the sh1t hits the fan do you think you might prefer someone who is on the ball and able to actually help you? Because I would.
To come back to your post, the people starting CTC now, or airline training in any form, are either extremely deluded, extremely rich, or extremely thick. Now is not the time to start training, nor has it been for the last 18 months.
We need to stick together and get eJ to raise the conditions for all. They made a profit last year (quite a substantial one), much to everyones surprise, and yet they aren't willing to pay for a decent workforce. I really really hope it comes back to kick them in the nuts.
This was only meant to be a short post, if you feel really opposed to what I have said, please put it directly, without insult and we can discuss it as mature adults.
The cadets that are starting TR's now, started their CTC training in Summer/Autumn 2007. No sign or very little sign of a recession and a great placement history with funding through an unsecured loan. These are the guys (and gals) that have been left to consider whether they want to continue working in temporary jobs, whilst paying off their loan (without being able to afford to live) OR going bankrupt (whilst being able to afford to live)
The cadets that started in 2008 should have seen this coming and stayed clear. However, at the time, CTC were the giver of all news great and encouraged young impressionable "kids" to start, still with an unsecured loan.
Let's make one thing clear here, the folks going through TR and Line Training, and in the hold pool at the moment have UNSECURED LOANS. Mummy and Daddy did NOT pay, they are NOT going to lose their house and it is up to little Jonny to find the money, or face bankruptcy.
So,
Cadet A (let's call him Steve) has finished his CPL/IR with fATPL. He's working in a temp job somewhere, earning under a grand a month (not enough to repay his loan even), has rent and bills to pay (so can't save anything) and has just been given this latest offer.
Steve deferred his repayments to HSBC for 6 months, hoping that a job would come along on the old scheme, where he would do his TR for nothing, then 6 months line training on £1000 a month, then a FO position on £36k a year. That would be great. Instead, the ONLY option available to enter an airline (ie. a job with a large enough salary to repay his loan) is with CTC as a Flexicrew pilot.
Now, I don't want to go into the details of the agreement, those of you who have seen it know what it involves. But basically, it's a lump sum up front followed by pretty poor pay for a long time after. As I said before, he has a choice, to take it, and hope that there's something more to follow or to turn it down.
TURN IT DOWN!!!! I hear you all shout....
Ah, but then Kevin, (who doesn't really talk to the other cadets, and has very rich parents) decides he can live on pittance and takes the job. Where does that leave Steve - at the back of the holdpool again, with no prospects for a long time, still in a temp job, still not paying off his loan and ultimately to bankruptcy.
So why should he take it? Even if he can fund the initial cost, then he still won't have enough to live on and pay back his loan. But - like the guy that's gone to Africa, like all of you who started out somewhere - he has F all to lose. Even if he joins with the rest of his CP in saying no, there will be people to fill his place, other cadets, from OAA, modular cadets etc etc the list is endless. So he has to say yes. He'll beg and borrow from family for the 10k and say yes.
Unfortunately, a few select individuals keep harping on about saying no, and you're degrading Ts and Cs for all blah blah, yes they probably are. But who set those Ts and Cs in the first place? Why not turn your anger onto those who make the decisions, join Balpa and actually acheive something, like securing your OWN job, because this affects every single one of you.
Easyjet know the exact position these cadets are in, and exploit it to the point of slavery. The only people that can stop it are those within eJ itself and BALPA. CTC cadets don't have BALPA recognition so they can't do anything.
What you have to remember is that CTC actually provided and STILL provide cadets of high quality and caliber (I know, I've flown with them as well as other "cadets" from other FTO's), although they are low houred they are good at the job, learn quickly and try hard. The Captains at eJ obviously don't care if they are sat next to someone with bankruptcy looming and stress induced fatigue, who has flu but can't take the day off because they don't get sick pay and they have rent to pay. When the sh1t hits the fan do you think you might prefer someone who is on the ball and able to actually help you? Because I would.
To come back to your post, the people starting CTC now, or airline training in any form, are either extremely deluded, extremely rich, or extremely thick. Now is not the time to start training, nor has it been for the last 18 months.
We need to stick together and get eJ to raise the conditions for all. They made a profit last year (quite a substantial one), much to everyones surprise, and yet they aren't willing to pay for a decent workforce. I really really hope it comes back to kick them in the nuts.
This was only meant to be a short post, if you feel really opposed to what I have said, please put it directly, without insult and we can discuss it as mature adults.
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djfingerscrossed
But they still remained (even with tears) due to the financial burden to CTC if they are removed... hence use the emotions to offer them the iCP and make them pay more! Not like in the past where CTC would remove them to retain Quality Graduates. Wouldnt you agree?
Yes, people are going further into debt funding CTC's money making scheme. Companies start off developing a good reputation and then ride on this reputation to make lots of money by cutting quality... I think we will see this more in the next few years. Another reason why it's not a good option at the moment.
CTC will remove people. It has been recommended to a few cadets and they have had to argue emotionally to remain. We've seen tears and arguments.
But they still remained (even with tears) due to the financial burden to CTC if they are removed... hence use the emotions to offer them the iCP and make them pay more! Not like in the past where CTC would remove them to retain Quality Graduates. Wouldnt you agree?
The more important point is that people are continuing to somehow get the finances together for the scheme. Secured on properties etc is simply crazy during these times with limited employment prospects. I would be happy to recommend the course but it's simply not a viable option at the moment.
The cadets that are starting TR's now, started their CTC training in Summer/Autumn 2007. No sign or very little sign of a recession and a great placement history with funding through an unsecured loan.
Queues around the block outside every high street branch of Northern Rock?
BBC NEWS | Business | Rush on Northern Rock continues
Note the date - 15th Sept 2007.
House prices had declined in a straight line every month all year in the USA. Interest rates were being slashed, the media was awash with talk of recession, finanacial crisis, bank runs, house price crashes, credit crunches.
Its 2 years and 4 months since Northern Rock. I think anyone who gambled £70,000 on the prize of a jet job at a major airline post Northern Rock wasn't properly pricing the risk. The financial weather radar was solid magenta by Autumn 2007 but still they took off.
WWW
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Good day to you all.
I have been reading your posts with interest. However, you all say with venom 'NOT TO TRAIN NOW', and if people are training now they are STUPID etc etc.
Would it not be a good time to train. after all, all industries are screwed at the minute so forging a career anywhere is unrealistic. therfore, i could take time out now to train and not really mis anything. Further, when the market returns which it WILL (listening to some of you, you think the economy and world is over, it is not). Therefore If i started trainng with say CTC by this time next year or so I would be nearly trained and thus emerge in a new stronger economy.
you comments are much appreciated so long as they dont just slate me.
Good day
I have been reading your posts with interest. However, you all say with venom 'NOT TO TRAIN NOW', and if people are training now they are STUPID etc etc.
Would it not be a good time to train. after all, all industries are screwed at the minute so forging a career anywhere is unrealistic. therfore, i could take time out now to train and not really mis anything. Further, when the market returns which it WILL (listening to some of you, you think the economy and world is over, it is not). Therefore If i started trainng with say CTC by this time next year or so I would be nearly trained and thus emerge in a new stronger economy.
you comments are much appreciated so long as they dont just slate me.
Good day
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Bingobongo,
Don't be lazy, read the last 20 or so pages. If you can't be bothered, there are a few of us on here who will happily rip you apart.
Anyways, the main reason for my post...
Can someone please let me know what the current total cost is for cadets starting at the moment?
I just want to know about any Foundation course, wings course etc. Don't worry about the new type raping scheme which is under discussion, just want a rough figure for the initial training, both Wings and ICP
Thanks.
P.S. Yes, I could have looked harder on the CTC website but strangely enough, the total cost wasn't very clear.
Don't be lazy, read the last 20 or so pages. If you can't be bothered, there are a few of us on here who will happily rip you apart.
Anyways, the main reason for my post...
Can someone please let me know what the current total cost is for cadets starting at the moment?
I just want to know about any Foundation course, wings course etc. Don't worry about the new type raping scheme which is under discussion, just want a rough figure for the initial training, both Wings and ICP
Thanks.
P.S. Yes, I could have looked harder on the CTC website but strangely enough, the total cost wasn't very clear.
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BingoBongo,
Do not pay any attention to the dooms day chanters. NOW is a great time to train. The recession will not last forever. Even now they say green shoots of recovery are evident.
My recommendations are: go forth and pursue your career. The best schools to consider are; Oxford, CTC if you are going integrated, which I would recommend you do as this increases your possibility of getting into an airliner after completion of your training.
hope this helps.
Do not pay any attention to the dooms day chanters. NOW is a great time to train. The recession will not last forever. Even now they say green shoots of recovery are evident.
My recommendations are: go forth and pursue your career. The best schools to consider are; Oxford, CTC if you are going integrated, which I would recommend you do as this increases your possibility of getting into an airliner after completion of your training.
hope this helps.
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well i fyour not going to answer bingobongo i feel i have to.
Well why not call across to him as you are using the same connection as bingo?
And GuyAk from earlier in the thread.
Pathetically inept trolling.
Regards
Rob PPRuNe Towers
Well why not call across to him as you are using the same connection as bingo?
And GuyAk from earlier in the thread.
Pathetically inept trolling.
Regards
Rob PPRuNe Towers
Further, when the market returns which it WILL (listening to some of you, you think the economy and world is over, it is not). Therefore If i started trainng with say CTC by this time next year or so I would be nearly trained and thus emerge in a new stronger economy.
However...
It's becoming clearer by the day that the CTC programme is no longer the route to the job it once was. I've always been a staunch defender of the training on here and continue to be so - the standards are very good, it's a great experience, etc. but the days of finishing the course, going to an airline, doing your six months' 'experience' and then disappearing over the hill into the sunset waving your nice permanent full-time contract are over.
My personal view is, when the economy picks up, they won't be coming back. The airlines (EZY in particular) have made no secret of their desire to force down T&Cs, particularly for new joiners. As I understand it, from what CTC have said, these FlexiCrew terms being offered to the guys now will remain the best available for a long time. For once, I believe what CTC say. The rot has set in.
Part of the attraction of the course used to be the direct route into an airline upon completion. The course was (is) expensive compared to doing it the modular way, but you accepted you were paying a premium partly for the continuity and the high standard of training, but mostly because of the chance of landing a good job at the end of it.
The course now costs £69,000 for the Wings phase plus NZ$17400 (£7500ish at current rates) for the mandatory Foundation phase. So you're looking at a basic £76,500 up to the end of the CPL/IR/MCC phase. This is getting on for £12k more than it was just three years ago (£60k + ~£4k) - an increase of nearly 20% in three years! (Hope that partly answers your question, sharpclassic.) Then of course you have to factor in insurance costs (which have rocketed) and about £5k of living costs, and then finally - as things stand, unless you're unbelievably lucky and BA reopen the doors just as you're coming through - another £10k for a type rating to actually get you the job.
Now, bingobingo, you tell me why you think it would be a good idea to start on this course, paying that completely ridiculous sum of money to train for a career where the overwhelming likelihood is that the only option on completion will be a job on a FlexiCrew contract barely earning enough to cover your loan repayments, never mind afford a home, a car or any sort of lifestyle. Because, the way things are now and with what is happening to the current crop coming through, I can't see for the life of me why anyone would think this would be a remotely good idea. On the other hand if you train modularly and cheaply, you'll be able to afford the full TR cost with easyJet or Ryanair, join as a contractor on similar wages and you'll still be thousands of pounds better off.
And on top of all that, pretty much the only way of finding the finance is through securing it on property! Are you really prepared to stake a house - yours or someone else's - on all this?
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CmixTmixC/Bingo/GuyAK,
That is truly shocking behaviour.
You are using underhand tactics to encourage admittedly clueless wannabes into financial oblivion.
The ONLY possible motivation for your embarrassing stunt is if you have a personal interest in one of the FTOs you mentioned. Or EZY.
They didn't enjoy the best reputations on here anyway; you have dragged them down further.
Shame on you.
EK
That is truly shocking behaviour.
You are using underhand tactics to encourage admittedly clueless wannabes into financial oblivion.
The ONLY possible motivation for your embarrassing stunt is if you have a personal interest in one of the FTOs you mentioned. Or EZY.
They didn't enjoy the best reputations on here anyway; you have dragged them down further.
Shame on you.
EK
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CTC Sux
Beware of the scam pipework. Once £110K down you will then be offered the fantastic opportunity of buying a 'job' (slavery apprenticeship) for another £30K. Only thing is, you grow envious of that 4.9m x 2.4m patch of diesel tinged tarmac you live on that is earning more per hour than yourself. Remember the 18 months lost earnings whilst training equates to about £30K. The total liability comes to about £215K when you add income tax deductions in. You pay all this liability and whilst training you will have to beg for eveything you'd expect to come as standard, such as flying.
Course fee repayment at 4.75% interest £110K
Purchase a job £30K
Income tax liability on above £45K
Lost earnings whilst training £30K
______
£215K
This is not a "sponsored course", the term probably shafts HMRC out of millions of £s income tax revenue. (This needs to come to light).
The CTC course is just like underwater cave chamber diving, without scuba, or a light. If you are willing to put everything on the line for something so uncertain, with a 99%
outcome, go for it.
Some of us however signed up in the 'up-times' for a CPL/IR + AQC + Type Rating and that is what was sold, for £65k. So to be short changed like this has lit the blue touch paper.
Simulation:
It is like buying a built-to-order Ferrari with a V8 engine. It arrives and they say: the V8s were breaking driveshafts so we put this lawnmower engine in instead. Oh, and sir you must buy the key separately. Another £10,000 please.
Then months later Ford, Vauxhall and even the car hire companies are playing the same dirty tricks. Congratulations you got the job, now here's the bill for the interview. The precedent of exploitation is set and all "old boys" buddies follow suit.
One thing is for sure. It is paying to beg and be treated like absolute sh#t.
Course fee repayment at 4.75% interest £110K
Purchase a job £30K
Income tax liability on above £45K
Lost earnings whilst training £30K
______
£215K
This is not a "sponsored course", the term probably shafts HMRC out of millions of £s income tax revenue. (This needs to come to light).
The CTC course is just like underwater cave chamber diving, without scuba, or a light. If you are willing to put everything on the line for something so uncertain, with a 99%
outcome, go for it.Some of us however signed up in the 'up-times' for a CPL/IR + AQC + Type Rating and that is what was sold, for £65k. So to be short changed like this has lit the blue touch paper.
Simulation:
It is like buying a built-to-order Ferrari with a V8 engine. It arrives and they say: the V8s were breaking driveshafts so we put this lawnmower engine in instead. Oh, and sir you must buy the key separately. Another £10,000 please.
Then months later Ford, Vauxhall and even the car hire companies are playing the same dirty tricks. Congratulations you got the job, now here's the bill for the interview. The precedent of exploitation is set and all "old boys" buddies follow suit.
One thing is for sure. It is paying to beg and be treated like absolute sh#t.
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Hi all,
Apologies for my ignorance but just a quick question regarding the ctc wings program.
I have been selected for stage 2 of the program (the assessment) which is coming up in the next few weeks but just curious about the financial aspect of the scheme. I read up on their website but not actually 100% sure what the story is.If you get selected are you basically sponsored or do you invest money in it also?
Apologies if the above is a silly question but would just like to be sure before I travel over for the assessment.
Thanks
Apologies for my ignorance but just a quick question regarding the ctc wings program.
I have been selected for stage 2 of the program (the assessment) which is coming up in the next few weeks but just curious about the financial aspect of the scheme. I read up on their website but not actually 100% sure what the story is.If you get selected are you basically sponsored or do you invest money in it also?
Apologies if the above is a silly question but would just like to be sure before I travel over for the assessment.
Thanks
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Cherrytaz,
Are you saying you've got all the way through finding out about CTC, applying, passing Stage 1, and getting through to Stage 2 without knowing if you or they pay the cost?
Are you saying you've got all the way through finding out about CTC, applying, passing Stage 1, and getting through to Stage 2 without knowing if you or they pay the cost?