sharpclassic

Throttle to Bottle,

I don't think people are getting annoyed with the likes of yourself, you are the type of person with whom we have the most sympathy. The people we are pulling our hair out over are the guys who are continuing to sign up for the courses knowing full well what the current deal on the table is.

"Things maybe different when we finish!" They claim. Yes, you're right, things will be different, they'll be even worse.

sharpclassic

...and before people start getting all panicky, I think fullretard means there are over 100 F/Os going from Thomson, not Thomas Cook!

alpha.charlie

That is NOT what CTC cadets have been offered, that is the OAT scheme.

CTC cadets have been offered something like this: 3 year contract, no minimum hours, £5k up front for TR and then deduction from salary for the rest of it (c.£28k), pay of about £28 a flight hour after TR deduction, a tub of vaseline.

I'm not defending it, just trying to point out that the OAT and CTC deal are two seperate entities. One thing they have in common however is exploitation

one post only!

Throttle to bottle, sharp classic is right no-one blames you it is the ones starting now who I can't quite feel sorry for.

flapsfull, TTB was saying he has NO money so probably can't even afford a instructors rating!! Also he is not throwing a further £35k at line training etc. Basically this whole thing is an excuse to slash his wage. It is being dressed up like paying for line training but its not, its contract work on a poor wage. He will not be borrowing the £35K, it is coming out of his salary. Ergo, massive paycut for new starters!!!

He has a choice, bankrupt while flying a jet or bankrupt while working in morrisons stacking shelves. What would you choose!?!?!?!

The main problem is if he doesn't do it someone else will!!! Therefore we cannot blame the cadets (the ones who started years ago) we have to blame ourselves. That is the current employed pilots for letting this happen. WE have to stop this. The cadets can't do it for themselves! They are not in a position to do it. Unless they all get together as a entire body to say no, any of them that do refuse the contract are making nothing more than a noble gesture! Unless they refuse the contract on the gorunds that they can't actually afford to live on it!!!

I totally agree with you FFR apart from I think we can feel sorry for them. Fecking sorry!

If every last cadet from CTC/OAA etc would say no to this deal we would have it cracked but that is never going to happen. As soon as a few people take it (which they already have) the damage is done. A cadets only option to stand up to this is to not take the job!! As I said, noble gesture and bankrupt in morrisons it is then.

As employed pilots in a union we have more options (hopefully)!!

TTB, mate I would hate to be in your shoes. Its a awful decision. Take the job and help bring about the end of the industry. Don't take the job and sit watching the demise from the sidelines! Tough call!!!
I can tell you would feel guilty about taking the job and realise what you are doing to the industry in doing so. Therefore if someone has to take these jobs I would rather it was you than some tw@t willing to stand all over his mates to get a job. At least you will then try and help fight these schemes later on when you are in a position to do so. Keep looking and if nothing else AT ALL presents itself. (I hate to say it). Take it.

Zippy Monster

Flapsfull - the guy came on here and asked for...

Not a load of blood-boiling ranting tell him what he shouldn't do. So instead of sitting and pontificating that "you are part of the very problem that has you over a barrel", why not answer the question and come up with some suggestions of what other options the poor guy and the hundreds in his situation have? Or is it that there aren't any? They can all choose not to do it, as you suggest, but then what? There are consequences of choices and decisions which have to be considered.

Not everyone is cut out for instructing or, as others frequently suggest, flying knackered Caravans or Aztecs around the middle of Africa, and what makes you think there are jobs for everyone in that part of the industry? I personally couldn't ever see myself sitting in the right hand seat of a rusty 152 teaching nervous kids how to fly.

I'm as against this disgraceful attack on new joiners' (and eventually all of our) T&Cs as everybody else, and it never ceases to amaze me how many people in the industry know nothing about what is happening. You can't criticize the CTC guys for taking it though, deplorable as it is. I don't know whether I would or not, I'm fortunate enough not to be in that position, but I can understand why these people would take what crappy deal is on offer to them.

Now if it was the same deal as the OAA lot are being offered... it would be a different matter.

You might want to look for the 'shift' button on your keyboard sometime as well.

lpokijuhyt

All this madness is going to end soon. Major news agencies have recently received the exact details of what has happened to this profession. Oxford, CTC, Easyjet, RyR, etc, etc. Can't wait to see the ringleaders of this crap be thrown to the fire! EASA is also very involved and they will be implementing a min. hour requirement to stop CtC and the others from simple exploitation. It's absolutely crazy that the FO seat has become "for sale" since First Class seats are not selling.

disco87

I'm glad that something may be done about this wanton exploitation, however as a wannabe what would this mean for the route into the airlines. What do you envision the changes to be and what possible route would be taken to the airlines now?

pushback22

Airline management in cahoots with flight schools have just gone one step too far. These greedy, frankly inept, bonus chasing management have just put one straw too many on the camels back. The media are going to have a field day. I am glad this is happening, even when the JAA up the limit for getting onto a jet like they have in the USA. Lets face facts, if it does not get corrected now, it will when there is a major incident/accident. Are we not in a safety culture where we are trained to close off the holes in the swiss cheese model before they line up. WAKE UP! This is a classic swiss cheese model. And something has to, and IS doing to get done about it. The time for being passive on this subject is over.

EK4457

Wow, sounds like somthing is brewing! I hope that this talk of news agencies getting hold of this 18th century slavery/prostitution is not a bluff.

As as been said earlier, we either deal with this via the media now or after people have lost thier lives.

These target driven bean counters have pushed the boundaries too far. Somthing has to give. I do hope it's the credability of certain airlines and not our once respected profession.

I can see a really good panorama on this.

Popcorn on standby.....

Throttle to Bottle

Cheers for the comments guys, its basically what has gone through my mind.

Fullflapsretard I can understand your angry but regret you couldnt be constructive. I would love to turn the offer down, hell I could be a hero and save the industry by telling all my mates not to take it but thats massively unrealistic! Also you have your numbers wrong, CTC are not wanting £35k up front and if we don't fly they don't get their money, again as alpha.charlie said I am not defending it but its not a Type Rating with 75hours, its a TR with about 600. Also, I will probably earn more through this deal than by stacking shelves at Lidl (Morrisons...thats merely a pipe dream).

One post only you really hit the nail on the head. Its on the guys already in the industry and the union we hand over money to to save the day. I would be more than happy for this 'opportunity' to be taken away from me as long as I knew the next guys wouldn't be taking it. Unfortunately that is not the case.

On another note I don't understand people signing up to start today, I only ever signed up to pay £60,000 unsecured. Ok that didn't quite work out, but they are knowingly signing up to £110,000 of secured debt for the same thing when the industry is on its knees...really scary stuff!

one post only!

FFR, these schemes make my blood boil also for a few reasons. The same reasons as you I am sure! These schemes will impact upon every last one of us eventually.

If we could get all the CTC and OAA cadets in one room and explain why they shouldn't take this deal we would be sorted. We can't. They need to present a united front to fight these contracts. They can't so thats why I don't blame the cadets. I know people have said no to this deal. Them saying no and explaining to their mates the very good reasons why they didn't take it didn't stop others from doing so. Unfortunately this is the real world we live in.

I am not saying take on more debt as you are going bankrupt. I am not saying take the industry down with you. Its a **** offer but its pretty much all there is. The airlines know this and thats why they are offering it!!!

In the ideal world one cadet would say no, the rest would follow on from their lead and the offer would be upped. We don't live in an ideal world.

I blame the airlines and to some extent the training providers. You blame the cadets. Well lets agree to disagree on that one and focus our efforts in trying to cajole those that can prevent this from happening. Balpa/local MP etc.

If this does make its way to the press I would not be unhappy at all to see it get national coverage.
Disco, my hope would then be that things would return slightly to normal. Supply and demand will always be a factor but rather than heading towards the current plan of a mobile workforce on temporary contracts and paid by the flying hour we will remain with permanent contracts and fixed bases.

P.S not that it matters but its £35k for type rating or £28/hr (not £58) while flying. I view it as the latter. Whichever way though its a joke!

The African Dude

I really hope that this is taken seriously - I couldn't agree more. Wise words indeed... in my very humble opinion.

TheBeak

Hang on a minute, their genuinely is no problem with low hour pilots flying airliners, the problem is underselected, thick, dreamers who do it for the uniform, the status and the initial thrill. That sums up the Oxford situation. They have been filtered by nothing more than their ability to pay. The problem with the CTC situation is having selected individuals flying with extreme money worries or extremely tired from the excessive lengths they have had to go to to 'perform' the job.

I'll reiterate, their is nothing wrong with having less experienced people in the RHS of a jet airliner with an experienced pilot in the LHS. Provided the individual is selected, has absorbed all knowledge and carries realtively average stresses in their life then thre is no reason for worry at all. Thinking that because someone has 1000 hours more sitting behind an autopilot on a light twin/ TP makes them more suitable is nuts.

Wee Weasley Welshman

Personally I had >1,500hrs on light aircraft before I sat in an airliner and, yes, I think it did give me something more than a 200hr cadet had. If nothing else I was better on the radios..

That's by the by. The point I would make is that if the FO position becomes a profit centre, and if that profit centre only works with low houred cadets, then only low houred cadets will ever be recruited to the profit centre.

So you don't get the mix.

You don't get the GA/flying instructors. You don't get the regional turboprop pilots. You don't get the suddenly-redundant highly experienced rival airline guys.

All you get is 200hr, £100,000 in debt cadet pilots from one or two FTO's.

That's not a healthy mix. It could certainly skew the experience levels.



On another point do not expect anybody to be quaking in their boots about the media picking up on this. There is no public interest in a story about people who wannabe airline pilots having a tougher time than they used to have. For most people paying for a forklift truck drivers course is an almost unimaginable investment in their own training. Earning £25,000 an unthinkably good wage. Daft buggers spending the price of a house to get jobs paying double, triple, quadruple the average wage is of no interest or relevance to them.

They want to pay £5 to go to Malaga and they don't care who is driving the 'plane' where they come from, how they trained or what they earn. They. Don't. Care.


WWW

GuyAK

hello everyone,

I am progressing through the CTC selection process for the cadets scheme at the minute and have noticed you dont think much to it all. Could you explain why.

Ps. I would go back and read all your threads if they didnt go on so much about the economy , is very difficult to factor out the key issues you are alraising.

cheers

alpha.charlie

that's gotta be a wind-up

louis261288

I would just like to say I bailed out on the CTC wings scholarship after reading everything on this website and to be quite frank- I'm Appalled!!!

I was accepted onto stage 2 on the CTC wings programme, Very quickly may I add. I had the response the very next day after applying! I thought to myself that maybe they were just "on the ball" so to speak or that maybe I was just plain amazing, but it turns out that they are just after my money with no guarantee of a carrer after training.

Luckily a friend pointed this website out to me, otherwise I would probably be making the worst mistake of my life and continuing through CTC and ending up bankrupt!

If your another young hopeful like me- DON'T DO IT!

TheBeak

Of course it is. Goodbye Guy.

GuyAK

Having read the threads I dont think i will be going any further with CTC. I literally do not know what to do, all i have ever wanted to do is fly, and now the state of the industry makes it an unviable career choice. The pilots have been well and truely put under an eleaborate cost cuttung excercise. apologise for m ignorance.

v6g

Never before in any human endeavour, has so much money been spent, by so many, for so little.