The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Not so far away anymore
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my minds eye it would be a re-run of when Luke confronts Darth and I end up cutting off his arm
New AQC courses running in January - drip feeding a bit of hope to cadets so they carry on paying their loans back?!!!
WWW - Yoda??
Hairy - tick
Speaks in funny accent... OMG! The Master I am! Hmmm.
WWW
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AQC courses have nothing to do with placement unfortunately. There are people I know who did an AQC a year ago and are still in the hold pool.
Unfortunately with HSBC it is black and white, you are paying them or you're not. They are not interested in how far along you are with your training, your position in the pool or anyone talking about green shoots of bull
.
2011 may be a line in the sand for recruitment but by then there will be a huge queue by then and 'normal' flow of cadets to the RHS won't be with us for a while!
Unfortunately with HSBC it is black and white, you are paying them or you're not. They are not interested in how far along you are with your training, your position in the pool or anyone talking about green shoots of bull
.2011 may be a line in the sand for recruitment but by then there will be a huge queue by then and 'normal' flow of cadets to the RHS won't be with us for a while!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Passing FL100
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW you're a moderator on here......
On a lighter note I was wondering when Part 3 of the CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread will be starting?!
May I suggest that when the next cadet gets placed we celebrate with this new venture?! Could be a while............
On a lighter note I was wondering when Part 3 of the CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread will be starting?!
May I suggest that when the next cadet gets placed we celebrate with this new venture?! Could be a while............
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did ask them about the hold pool in that presentation afterwards and LW said that at the moment they have 112 pilots in their hold pool, but he expected this to be reduced soon and they are due to make an announcement soon regarding this. He wouldnt say what he was refering to though.
Anyone have any ideas what he may have been on about? Hopefully this maybe finally a bit of good news for those in the hold pool!
Anyone have any ideas what he may have been on about? Hopefully this maybe finally a bit of good news for those in the hold pool!
Lee said that the green shoots of recovery were well on their way and that by this time next year things would be back to normal...
Unbelievable.That'll be the green shoots of recovery that have just led to BMI announcing to their staff that 600 job cuts are on the way, Aer Lingus in massive financial strife, BA still needing redundancies, etc; the eurozone only just starting to pull tentatively out of recession and Britain still being in it. The list goes on.
On the subject of the hold pool... yep, I imagine it should be reduced soon... when next season's bunch of summer-contract intake are removed and sent off for their 6-month work experience.
There are still an average of 12 cadets per month going through the course. Even if all 112 are shifted (and how likely do you think this is given the current climate?) common logic dictates there will be around 140 more by this time next year.
Remember that will still be 2010 - not yet 2011, which for some reason everyone has suddenly started assume will be the point at which the demand for new pilots surges. I'm still yet to hear any clear evidence pointing to that - "my mum's cousin's son-in-law's stepdad's mate's mate's dog said things will be better in 2011" doesn't really count. You'd need a crystal ball to work out when things are going to be back to pre-recession levels, and since when was CTC's crystal ball bigger than anyone else's?
I'm sure the presentation was as slick and smooth as ever and a lot of people were left drooling at the prospect of becoming part of the CTC 'family'. But this bit concerns me:
I was in a room full of students who thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and was already creating a bit of tension through asking some "off-topic" questions.
As I've said elsewhere, without a doubt it's a great course and if you must insist on spending a fortune on a course like this at the moment then go to CTC and enjoy it; but honestly, anyone thinking of blowing nearly six figures on any sort of fATPL training right at this moment needs a visit from the men in white coats.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if he really did say:
to you and 'they' do not say it soon YOU will know not join up with this organisation. There is your measuring stick - use it. But don't jump the gun, give them until End of January.
Well done for asking questions, that's one of the ways we learn. Others, in fact most, will learn the much harder more expensive way.
he expected this to be reduced soon and they are due to make an announcement soon regarding this.
Well done for asking questions, that's one of the ways we learn. Others, in fact most, will learn the much harder more expensive way.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: By the sea
Age: 42
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello guys! Does anyone know when the CTC-easyjet contract termintates? I thought it was summer 2011 but according to some cadets here, it is about to be renewed in few weeks (maybe days).
If so, that could be THE big announcement
If so, that could be THE big announcement
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South now...
Age: 43
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
3 Posts
That's if it is renewed....brookfield ring any bells? Give it a few days and wait and see, hopefully they might renew with proper contracts. We live in hope...
WBV
WBV
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: .
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with what CTC and socloss said about the industry picking* up in 2011. I would bet quite a bit of money on it. I think there will then be some hiring and a subsequent emptying* of the CTC hold pool. I think CTC are offering out some very honest and unbiased* information at the presentations.
*By pick up I mean that we currently have mass redundancies from many airlines so even one airline hiring 30 people permanently and 30 on temporary contracts will constitute a MASSIVE "pick up".
* Even a few people leaving the hold pool to return after 6 months constitutes an "emptying".
*(cough choke cough)
P.S I do now think the brookfield rumour may well have been put out there as part of the negotiation tactics. Oh you have heard we are signing with brookfield, oh you weren't supposed to know about that (wink wink), ok, so by how much are you going to reduce the cost of these cadets to keep the business.................
*By pick up I mean that we currently have mass redundancies from many airlines so even one airline hiring 30 people permanently and 30 on temporary contracts will constitute a MASSIVE "pick up".
* Even a few people leaving the hold pool to return after 6 months constitutes an "emptying".
*(cough choke cough)
P.S I do now think the brookfield rumour may well have been put out there as part of the negotiation tactics. Oh you have heard we are signing with brookfield, oh you weren't supposed to know about that (wink wink), ok, so by how much are you going to reduce the cost of these cadets to keep the business.................
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During the selection day which I attended a few weeks back, we (6 of us) were given a presentation about CTC, the course, the industry etc...
In my opinion, the information presented, was an honest overlook of the industry, and there wasn't a great deal of 'shiny brochure' style sales pitches...
When we were asked if we had any questions, I raised the worry that the holding pool is bursting, and asked:
"Can you explain the way in which the pool is managed, if for example a cadet completes the course, and is taken on for a 6 month flexi contact with EZY, and is then laid off in the winter back to the pool - Does someone coming out of training in that time, have a higher place in the pool/queue, or does the cadet who has been laid off take priority when EZY/other partner airlines approach CTC for a new intake?"
The answer: "A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!
Obviosuly, due to the state of the industry at present, this "promise" is being stretched by factors outside of CTC's control.
I think it's important for anyone entering such a scheme, to be well informed, have a back up, have a plan B, C, D. I don't disagree that at the moment, some people who enter the system are doing so with rose tinted goggles, but as long as you research, understand the risks, and are prepared for the event of unemployment and mr bank manager ringing the door bell in 18 months, then one can make a well thought decision.
Questions that I've asked myself over the last 2 years,
Do I have equity in a property?
Do I have the education and experience to fall back on if I struggle to secure airline employment after training?
Do I have a back up?
Can I keep above the water if I'm paying back the loan/bond at £1000 a month without a permanent RHS job?
My answer to all of the above is yes; it's a risk I know, but it's one I've prepared myself for.
In my opinion, the information presented, was an honest overlook of the industry, and there wasn't a great deal of 'shiny brochure' style sales pitches...
When we were asked if we had any questions, I raised the worry that the holding pool is bursting, and asked:
"Can you explain the way in which the pool is managed, if for example a cadet completes the course, and is taken on for a 6 month flexi contact with EZY, and is then laid off in the winter back to the pool - Does someone coming out of training in that time, have a higher place in the pool/queue, or does the cadet who has been laid off take priority when EZY/other partner airlines approach CTC for a new intake?"
The answer: "A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!
Obviosuly, due to the state of the industry at present, this "promise" is being stretched by factors outside of CTC's control.
I think it's important for anyone entering such a scheme, to be well informed, have a back up, have a plan B, C, D. I don't disagree that at the moment, some people who enter the system are doing so with rose tinted goggles, but as long as you research, understand the risks, and are prepared for the event of unemployment and mr bank manager ringing the door bell in 18 months, then one can make a well thought decision.
Questions that I've asked myself over the last 2 years,
Do I have equity in a property?
Do I have the education and experience to fall back on if I struggle to secure airline employment after training?
Do I have a back up?
Can I keep above the water if I'm paying back the loan/bond at £1000 a month without a permanent RHS job?
My answer to all of the above is yes; it's a risk I know, but it's one I've prepared myself for.
Last edited by One9iner; 29th Nov 2009 at 14:30.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Can you explain the way in which the pool is managed, if for example a cadet completes the course, and is taken on for a 6 month flexi contact with EZY, and is then laid off in the winter back to the pool - Does someone coming out of training in that time, have a higher place in the pool/queue, or does the cadet who has been laid off take priority when EZY/other partner airlines approach CTC for a new intake?"
The answer: "A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!
The answer: "A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!
If you are *lucky* and get offered some flying under flexi wings terms then what you will typically earn in a month is 12 days of pay paid at a flat day rate which gives you about £1,600 per month after tax.
Those that have the typical £70k loan for their CTC course have a monthly repayment very close to £1,100. Thus whilst working as a flexi wing you'll have £500 a month to live off. About £120 a week. £17 a day.
To cover food, accommodation, transport, mobile phone (essential for standby duties) and all other living expenses such as haircuts, toothbrushes and the all essential TV license.
If and when you're tossed back into the pool over the winter the bank still wants their £1,100 a month loan repayment so you'd better be applying for a double shift at the packing factory.
Same could happen next summer as well.
So even if you're one of the lucky pool swimmers to be offered a flexi wing opportunity life is still tougher than a pair of old boots.
WWW
Those that have the typical £70k loan for their CTC course have a monthly repayment very close to £1,100. Thus whilst working as a flexi wing you'll have £500 a month to live off. About £120 a week. £17 a day.
To cover food, accommodation, transport, mobile phone (essential for standby duties) and all other living expenses such as haircuts, toothbrushes and the all essential TV license.
If and when you're tossed back into the pool over the winter the bank still wants their £1,100 a month loan repayment so you'd better be applying for a double shift at the packing factory.
Same could happen next summer as well.
So even if you're one of the lucky pool swimmers to be offered a flexi wing opportunity life is still tougher than a pair of old boots.
WWW
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no idea why people keep applying to not only this scheme but also paying thousands to train. WWW's financial overview in the last post is spot on. Why do people do it? WHY?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ground
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!
this is untrue, cadets are replacing flexi crew pilots.
its simple really training captains need to train to get paid a traines salary.
If they dont take on new cadets to train they dont have any work.
easyjet prioritises training captains over new flexi crew first officers who aren't even employees anyway. plus they dont get paid flexi crew are more expensive.
my advice is to stay away until things pick up around 2012 do not fall for the trap when i come out of training it will all be better, because simply put noone really knows not even ctc with their "crystal ball"
You would have to be very irresponsible or just a moron to embark on training right now
this is untrue, cadets are replacing flexi crew pilots.
its simple really training captains need to train to get paid a traines salary.
If they dont take on new cadets to train they dont have any work.
easyjet prioritises training captains over new flexi crew first officers who aren't even employees anyway. plus they dont get paid flexi crew are more expensive.
my advice is to stay away until things pick up around 2012 do not fall for the trap when i come out of training it will all be better, because simply put noone really knows not even ctc with their "crystal ball"
You would have to be very irresponsible or just a moron to embark on training right now
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chaps, name calling aside ("moron" ... really, this forum doesn't need anymore knives being thrown from tom to harry) I don't disagree with the sentiment about the huge risk, falling prospects of permanent employment, degrading T&C's, lack of light at the end of the tunnel etc...
I don't want to come across as a defender of CTC, or flexi-contracts, or EZY, but each individual is in an individual situation. A situation from where a decision is made. Someone nosediving into training now with no plan B is vunrelable.
I don't want to come across as a defender of CTC, or flexi-contracts, or EZY, but each individual is in an individual situation. A situation from where a decision is made. Someone nosediving into training now with no plan B is vunrelable.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone nosediving into training now with no plan B
ts.Sorry mate, but it's a harsh truth. If you have another career then why leave it - now of all times? Just sit out the storm and see what sort of an industry emerges. Then decide if you want to be part of it.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One9iner
I read your posts with interest. I can certainly sympathise with your position. Several years ago I was hunting around the big schools, FTE, CTC and Oxford trying to weigh the risks and the benefits of training. To be honest, even back then (late 2005) I felt that taking on the flight training loan and going for it was a huge huge risk - as did everyone else. It gave me sleepless nights. Not everyone was getting employment straight away (far from it), the threat of failing the CPL/IR or not being recommended by the school weighed heavily on most peoples minds. The holy grail of the first airline interview was still very elusive even during the relatively "bouyant" times of the recent past. Indeed, several of my course mates (course of 12) are still unemployed today, years after we finished training.
I make this point because that was then, those were the good times. Starting an integrated ATPL now and taking on that debt with the aviation industry in its current state of turmoil reallly is a terrible grass roots business decision. Strip out all the emotion involved (ie the burning desire to get flying as soon as humanly possible) and most level headed people would come to the same conclusion. Put the dream on hold for a while and do something else. Thats not the same as giving up on it. This is what my brother is doing who has recently graduated from uni and is desperate to fly. He's sensible enough to see that in 14 to 15 months time when he gets kicked out from an FTO with his licences and ratings, there will be no jobs going (or at least no jobs which provide an adaquate return on his investment of £70-80k). Its just my personal opinion, but I think paying that amount of money to train to only be rewarded with a holding pool number, or, if you're lucky, 6 months on £1000/month, is the most appalling deal. If that is the most you have to look forward to, how can now possibly be justified as the right time to start training?
On the flip side, it is easy for me to say this because I have a relatively secure RHS jet job. With that in mind I can tell you a couple of useful things. While it is a fantastic job (in terms of the actual flying)... after a couple of years of doing it, you really gotta believe that it does become a JOB. The adrenalin doesn't pump quite so readily anymore at 4am heading off to tenerife. The constant grind of shift work, missed social events and the company constantly trying to peck away at your terms and conditions becomes fatiguing in itself. I'm happy to do it because I'm being paid a good salary on a permanent contract. If I was on £1000/month with no benefits, working as hard as I work now, I would feel sick to my very core. I am paying back £1150/month and will be until around 2015...and even on a full SFO salary, its not like I'm throwing money around.
Ultimately as you quite rightly say, it is a personal decision. In many ways it is grossly unfair of me to sit here trying to dissuade you from chasing your dream as you have just as much right to it as I ever had. The only reason I chose to post is because I have met many many CTC cadets at work, all of whom are genuinely lovely guys and they are being totally screwed over. I fear the same fate awaits you.
Remember, just because you can "afford" to live as an unemployed pilot paying back the loan and stacking shelves...do you willingly want to put yourself in to that position? I just hope you realize that the 'Plan B' you speak of is effectively going to be your 'Plan A', in the short term at least.
Good luck whatever you decide.
V2
I read your posts with interest. I can certainly sympathise with your position. Several years ago I was hunting around the big schools, FTE, CTC and Oxford trying to weigh the risks and the benefits of training. To be honest, even back then (late 2005) I felt that taking on the flight training loan and going for it was a huge huge risk - as did everyone else. It gave me sleepless nights. Not everyone was getting employment straight away (far from it), the threat of failing the CPL/IR or not being recommended by the school weighed heavily on most peoples minds. The holy grail of the first airline interview was still very elusive even during the relatively "bouyant" times of the recent past. Indeed, several of my course mates (course of 12) are still unemployed today, years after we finished training.
I make this point because that was then, those were the good times. Starting an integrated ATPL now and taking on that debt with the aviation industry in its current state of turmoil reallly is a terrible grass roots business decision. Strip out all the emotion involved (ie the burning desire to get flying as soon as humanly possible) and most level headed people would come to the same conclusion. Put the dream on hold for a while and do something else. Thats not the same as giving up on it. This is what my brother is doing who has recently graduated from uni and is desperate to fly. He's sensible enough to see that in 14 to 15 months time when he gets kicked out from an FTO with his licences and ratings, there will be no jobs going (or at least no jobs which provide an adaquate return on his investment of £70-80k). Its just my personal opinion, but I think paying that amount of money to train to only be rewarded with a holding pool number, or, if you're lucky, 6 months on £1000/month, is the most appalling deal. If that is the most you have to look forward to, how can now possibly be justified as the right time to start training?
On the flip side, it is easy for me to say this because I have a relatively secure RHS jet job. With that in mind I can tell you a couple of useful things. While it is a fantastic job (in terms of the actual flying)... after a couple of years of doing it, you really gotta believe that it does become a JOB. The adrenalin doesn't pump quite so readily anymore at 4am heading off to tenerife. The constant grind of shift work, missed social events and the company constantly trying to peck away at your terms and conditions becomes fatiguing in itself. I'm happy to do it because I'm being paid a good salary on a permanent contract. If I was on £1000/month with no benefits, working as hard as I work now, I would feel sick to my very core. I am paying back £1150/month and will be until around 2015...and even on a full SFO salary, its not like I'm throwing money around.
Ultimately as you quite rightly say, it is a personal decision. In many ways it is grossly unfair of me to sit here trying to dissuade you from chasing your dream as you have just as much right to it as I ever had. The only reason I chose to post is because I have met many many CTC cadets at work, all of whom are genuinely lovely guys and they are being totally screwed over. I fear the same fate awaits you.
Remember, just because you can "afford" to live as an unemployed pilot paying back the loan and stacking shelves...do you willingly want to put yourself in to that position? I just hope you realize that the 'Plan B' you speak of is effectively going to be your 'Plan A', in the short term at least.
Good luck whatever you decide.
V2