Throttle to Bottle

Another article of interest for those wanting to know more about CTC and the current situation qualified cadets are in:

Training to fly a desk

A little more focus on the positives, so read with the BALPA article to get a balanced view!

EGCC4284

Great as in the bubble is about to burst

If it looks like no jobs at the end, then the uptake will reduce causing a shortage

You dont have to tell me the downside of CTC, I know.

I have 1100 hours on 737. Who is Monarch easyJet and Thomas Cook going to employ. Me or a CTC airbus cadet with 500 hours no matter how many hours I have.

I wonder how many CTC Cadets are waiting for type rating and line training. I am guessing not far off 200???? Does anyone know

one post only!

Tiger moth, I totally agree, £50 is a lot of money when you are on the dole. Thats why I think its a bit immoral to ask cadets to get involved. Dangle £50 in front of a broke cadet and then dangle the cadet in front of uni students! I understand why they are doing it. I don't have to like it though (the presentation not the guys doing it!!!!).
It just seems to be the whole way the industry is going though. People desperate for work and money, through no fault of their own and then people (airlines etc) taking advantage of the situation they are in. That's business I guess. I don't have to like that either!!!!!

P.S I also think the back to school thing takes the piss!!!!!!!!! (Add unpaid marketing assistant to the CV)

future flier

Does anyone know how many people there are per course? Have the numbers gone down recently or are CTC still filling courses?

One9iner

Course structure has changed so that groundschool (14 x ATPL exams) are completed in one go in the UK in 5 months, before flight training begins in NZ for 7 months, and then back to BOH to complete multi engine.

As a result, the previous intake of 10/15 per month has been changed to 24 per 2 months. So no, the numbers haven't really changed.

air_wolf

You'd think CTC would have reduced the numbers per course to help keep the hold pool at a managable size. They're just stitching up those already swimming, who one day hope to get a full time contract, by providing an almost endless supply of cheap cadets who can be hired on temporary flexicrew contracts.

The problem is CTC has expanded so quickly and invested so heavily, that the only way this cost base can be supported is by taking on ~12 wannabes per course, which is blatantly too many. Its an unsustainable business model.

future flier

Thanks one9iner

I've been accepted onto a course to start next year and was wondering why they split the course for the flying training - makes sense now!

Its interesting they're still filling the courses. I went to Jerez (FTE) last month and on the latest course there was only 6!

TheBeak

Quite. It is very interesting. It must be quite a sales team they have there.

You'd have to be genuinely delusional to start with CTC any time before May 2010. I wouldn't touch them yet. See what they do with their placements and then move forward or away more confidently. The first 4 months of 2010 are going to be pivotal for this company in particular, because of the very specific product that they are selling - if they don't deliver on what they 'heavily imply' (in the words of dave) of course the bottom will fall out of it. Actions speak louder than thousands of engineered words.

Take the advice as it is meant - to help.

Wee Weasley Welshman

BA slumps to record loss as strikes loom - Telegraph

Largest number of insolvencies in at least half a century - Telegraph


Join the dots.

WWW

One9iner

WWW; I'm sorry but what has this got to do with the CTC Wings programme? There are plenty of other threads on the go talking about 'the downturn / upturn ' or the general state of the economy.

CTC are still operating, granted the holding pool is bursting, but for some people, this thread should be a source of CTC discussion. Not a discussion about BA's losses, or how many people have gone bankrupt in the last year.

sharpclassic

Ohhh, shot gun being the first to jump on One9iner!!!

(condescending hat on)

Right SonnyJim,

What our friend WWW is trying to demonstrate is the link between airlines having MASSIVE problems (no jobs available) and young wannabe's shelling out several thousand pounds on training (after which there are no jobs).

Massive Debt + No Jobs = Insolvency

In the words of John Cleese...

" Understand? Now write it out a hundred times. And if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off"

Wee Weasley Welshman

Record airline losses and record numbers of people going bankrupt are key issues for anyone swimming in the CTC hold pool or thinking of diving in I'd say.


WWW

Cirrus_Clouds

I'm so glad I stuck to my guns over the many years and decided not to get into debt with flying, I will eventually need a loan, but a very small sum compared to these CTC guys/girls and I think it's that, that will benefit me personally in the long run.

Saying that when times do improve, I expect them to get into jobs first alongside experienced pilots.

I don't know what the agreement is with CTC and their students about the financing side of things, with the 3rd party/bank providing the loan, I wonder if their payments will be delayed and they may only have to start paying back when jobs come about?... hmm, wouldn't suprise me.

I nearly got into CTC, but I do feel happier I don't have this massive debt over my head, worries about job security and paying it off.

One9iner

We all know the economy is on it's arse. We all know the airline industry is facing a tough and protracted downturn...

There are other threads talking about these issues, and poeple are viewing their opinions, and providing links to other websites as you have done to back these up.

Economic issues that affect guys in the CTC holdpool, also affect any other person in any other pool, or FTO, so discuss it in one of the generic threads that already exist. All the information is of use, and anyone who is about to get into debt, before entering an integrated programme needs to research carefully before doing so. I feel we agree there !

The constant traffic in the CTC thread about the economy, is not specific to the Wings scheme.

WWW, in your opinion, CTC are "scum", how about other FTO's? Cabair? Oxford? Why the specific attack on CTC?

Wee Weasley Welshman

This is a 90 page thread which followed on from one that ran over 100 pages long. I think we can afford a little thread creep.

WWW

Zippy Monster

Basically, the arrangement is "you obtain the financing, pay us, and it's your responsibility to make the repayments". CTC cannot and do not get involved in the individual relationship between the cadet and the bank - once the money has been drawn down, it is the cadet's problem. Even in the good old days when it was that HSBC would grant the whole amount unsecured, on the back of the course's reputation, placement record and the availability of cheap and easy money, once the financing arrangements were in place to pay for the course, CTC themselves were not, and are not, party to the cadet's banking setup.

In the past this was often possible - all it would take would be a quick phone call or a pop into the branch. Since the financial meltdown, things have changed a bit and, suffice to say, HSBC have lately taken a rather (actually, make that very) aggressive stance on obtaining repayments.

Cirrus_Clouds

Aren't I glad I'm doing it the cheaper route then rather than the expensive way!!

It's all about timing, shear luck and the hope that *hit doesn't hit the fan, because if it does, lets hope they can manage .

I assume these large loans are all secured on some property or other, so they knew what risk they were taking. Some may be alright having saved previously and now sitting it out waiting until the good times come back.

Zippy Monster

No, that's only been the case in the last few months or so for those starting out.

Most people facing unemployment after the end of the course, and consequent financial troubles, were people who signed up in good faith during the employment boom when the loan was unsecured. I was one of them.

spudgunjon

What would concern me most if I were a recent/soon to be CTC Wings graduate is the continuing and ongoing recruitment for the ATP scheme, which if we believe what we are told by CTC, places cadets (upon completion of the 3 weekly run AQC) into the same holding pool of pilots they themselves are in/can expect to enter. It would equally concern me if I were someone recently completing or about to undertake the ATP scheme (for £6.5k) as to whether or not I am merely helping window dress CTC's figures through this torrid time in the industry. I'd hasten to add that the ATP scheme which had been closed throughout the majority of 2008 due to being oversubscribed to for the anticipated and current market needs, was bizarrely reopened at the beginning of 2009 - you know that famous hotbed year of airline recruitment we currently find ourselves in

The official line I was told by a well briefed CTC representative was that the airlines "specify their preference" when approaching CTC as to whether or not they want Wings/ATP cadets or indeed a mixture. My personal conclusion is that those of us who qualified/are qualifying in the time period from Jun 2008-End of 2011 will need to work like no other generation in order to avoid becoming a part of the forgotten era of pilot training/recruitment.

Make no mistake CTC has been fantastic. It is very close to the point of no return in terms of being in real danger of degenerating into the pilot factory conveyor belt that both Cabair and OAA have, wherein its one intangible USP -its reputation- will be irrevocably tarnished.

Isn't it integrated vs modular time again???

Cirrus_Clouds

(Zippy Monster).......... Speechless! The bit of information I didn't know.

That is a vast amount of money to get unsecured. I hope those monthly payments aren't too high and it's spread over many years. I imagine at the time, the potential of a flying job with a good salary was high, so proberly seemed ok. I've heard of a few just the other day who are 24 and 27 and have paid off most of their debt having graduated through CTC. They obviously got jobs before the bubble burst.

lol, ask this question again in at least 1-4yrs time when the good times come back. Each has it's own benefits and disadvantages, question is, what's better for people in times like now - I think we know the answer, play safe and least risk.