Rollerboy

Sorry Mr Bigglesworth but jb5000 is correct in some ways.

Yes there has always been an element of risk when embarking on an Ab Inito course, however there have been better times to start.

Sorry but the idea that you will be able to tap the emerging markets with your 250 hrs and Airbus rating is laughable. You seem to have fallen victim of the Woodward bull. Still at least when you start CP80 you can be safe in the knowledge that you weren't the only one who fell for it.... Hopefully these emerging markets they are targeting have enough room for the 'hold pools' sorry 'hold oceans' that will exist when you finish.

just telling it as I see it sorry.

Roller

akindofmagic

How jaw droppingly arrogant for someone from CP80, who hasn't even started the course yet, to be dishing out the advice to someone who is currently in permanent employment with a major airline in Europe.

Sandpit. Check. Head. Check.

one post only!

Wow, ingenious. I am sure none of the many, recently made redundant, experienced pilots have considered trying to get a job out in those places let alone all the newly qualified pilots also. Talk about missing an opportunity.

There was me thinking a lot of them weren't really recruiting in large numbers anyway as they face their own problems. Obviously not.

Good job you mentioned that as no-one else will have thought of that.

Mr_Bigglesworth

LOL! Calm down dears.

How long did it take you guys to get jobs after training?

There seems to be a lot of people on here saying that starting training now is a bad idea. Forgive me, but are we not in an economic trough at the moment? We are going to be embarking on a journey towards a peak sooner rather than later. No-one can know what state the industry is going to be in 2 years, but it's got to be better than the present quagmire.

I do feel for all the budding first officers waiting in the holding pit though.
When the airlines start actively recruiting again, freshly graduated CTC Wingers will have the upper hand won't they?

Tiger_ Moth

Mr. Bigglesworth,

Quote: "jb500; Have you ever considered working for an airline based in one of the emerging market countries such as the UAE, Brazil, Mexico? Europe, although desirable, may not be feasible at this moment in time."

With comments like that I really don't know if I feel angry at you or sorry for you. There's just so much wrong/ incorrect about that statement I don't know where to start.

Do you really think the hordes of FO's facing imminent bankruptcy wouldn't jump at the prospect of a permanent contract anywhere?

Feel free to PM if you want some genuine advice.

TheBeak

Mr_Bigglesworth, you are going to find out the hard way if you aren't careful.

If CTC don't magic something miraculous up by April 2010 then I'd strongly question their future. I wouldn't invest in them until they have delivered something to what must be nearing 200 customers that are waiting for their 'promises' to become reality.

Think long and hard before you commit to this.

Don't believe the hype.

TFlexMax80

*Pulls out pin, throws grenade in*

Interesting reading on the general section forum of the BALPA website at the moment, regarding the Wings scheme in general and flexicrew in particular. Particularly interesting is the allegation that CTC have paid some cadets' bonds off to avoid the negative publicity of the aforementioned cadets declaring bankruptcy. Smoke, fire? You decide.

Don't shoot the messenger....

99jolegg

Around 70-90 I think. It'll probably go up to 150 and hover around there for a while before coming back down but nobody knows....

davedek

"Quote: Interesting reading on the general section forum of the BALPA website at the moment, regarding the Wings scheme in general and flexicrew in particular. Particularly interesting is the allegation that CTC have paid some cadets' bonds off to avoid the negative publicity of the aforementioned cadets declaring bankruptcy. Smoke, fire? You decide. "

TFlexMax80 - I'm certainly not shooting the messenger, and what you have just said is the absolute first instance I have heard of anything like that happening. The first thought that comes to my mind: CTC 'paying off cadet's bonds', erm, sounds like a fantastically great thing to do for those cadets! Surely that can only be GOOD?

Just a little confused as to why it would be an 'allegation', we all know there are a fair number of qualified cadets without jobs, wouldn't it be GREAT for them if CTC actually saved them from bankruptcy and helped them out financially?

Like I said, never heard of this happening myself, and I find it difficult to believe. But cadets in troube NOT going bankrupt? Would be great (if true) in my opinion.

jb5000

I would have thought it was more of a 'keep quiet' bung rather than a generous 'sorry we couldn't get you a job old chap, what do you say we repay your loan and we call it even?'.

If word got out that some had successfully declared themselves bankrupt, then that might well start a chain of cadets shedding the mill stone from their necks.

That, of course, could very well spell the beginning of the end for CTC's ability to train the cadets with the best ability over those with the largest chequebook. Banks become unwilling to lend for flight training, CTC's reputation dies a painfully slow death whilst everyone in the industry becomes embittered by their flexible schemes ruining the T+Cs for the whole profession.

Oh wait... That's already happening.

Zippy Monster

Bigglesworth, in the nicest possible way it seems you've been taken in big style by the CTC PR machine. No shame in that - they are good at it. But you would be well advised to listen to what people are telling you. Most of the respondents to your posts are ex-CTC - I know at least four of them are, I can't speak for the rest but I suspect they are. CTC might not tell you certain bits and pieces that those of us actually employed in the airlines now would consider to actually be jolly important.

Could I just add myself to the list of those above who think this is possibly one of the most naive statements I have ever come across on PPrune; and furthermore, shows a distinct lack of understanding of the industry at which you're about to throw a massive amount of money. Do you know how many out of work pilots there are? How many of them are low-houred, with a 737/320 rating? Who have sent a CV to every operator, big and small, all over the world in search of a job with not so much as a reply forthcoming from many of them? An fATPL and rating with no hours on type is about as effective in today's job market as a fart in a hurricane.

In addition, most non-English-speaking countries' airlines require you to speak their language fluently. Could you imagine Air France giving a job to a non-French speaker, or Lufthansa to a non-German speaker? The same goes for airlines in many of the French/Spanish speaking countries around the world (although granted maybe not the Middle East.) I know many of the cadets I trained with spoke nothing other than English. You'll note I've not assumed that you don't, but it's something to consider. You can take it from me, first hand, that it is no fun having to live miles away from your family, missus and friends in a country where you barely speak a word of the language (although watching the captain's expression while trying to make your rehearsed PA in broken French and German is amusing.)

It might be a bargain, but when the bank come calling for their money, trust me it won't feel any different whether the amount they're after is £85k or £90k.

Has it? What evidence have you got for that? Those of us dropped by easyJet at the end of last summer thought similar things, and what's happened since then? easyJet closing a base, threatening redundancies; TCX have just dropped this season's intake of cadets; BA have said they won't hire until at least 2011; even Ryanair are slowing their recruitment down at the moment. At the moment, easyJet show no indication of any permanent recruitment. What possible signs are there that things will be better in two years, apart from maybe a bit of BA recruitment? (Ignore anything you have heard about 400 NEW pilots.)

Who knows? The fairest way would be to employ those who graduated earliest and have been waiting in the pool longest - why should the fresh graduates jump the queue? But you could be right - the airlines might well like to get their free six months out of you.

Some (a lot of this year's EZY intake, in fact) have had to wait over a year to get a six-month FlexiCrew contract, while the interest on their debt mounts up. This pattern is likely to continue for the forseeable future, with more and more cadets being pumped out of the machine and forming a long queue behind.

Still think the investment is worth it? All I can say is the very best of luck.

jb5000

PS - Mr Bigs: "When the airlines start actively recruiting again, freshly graduated CTC Wingers will have the upper hand won't they?"

No. Completely and utterly no. How could you ever think that to be true?

It will be like this:

1. Those with command experience on type and many thousands of hours
2. Those with command experience but not on that specific type
3. Those with some solid FO time on the aircraft they are operating.
4. Those without time on type but a proven record, perhaps a couple of thousand hours on turboprops or different jets.
5. Those that have perhaps only very limited jet experience (1,000 hours from FlexiCrew for instance).
6. Those that know someone in the company already.
7. Those that have paid for their own type rating.
8. CTC Wings Cadets that have graduated a long time ago (perhaps some that are already waiting), as it seems it is a strictly First Come / First Served when it comes to jobs when you finish the course.
9. Freshly Graduated CTC Wingers

See where I'm going with this?

Care to put a figure on how many people are in the first eight categories? Any idea just how many airlines in the world are merrily stocking up those first eight categories through redundancies / unpaid leave / furlough?

Please, open your eyes!!! I'm not being bitter or nasty, I just don't want to see you waste so much time, effort and cash for no reason.

Zippy Monster

I bet that's what CTC said.

Let me guess... the presentation made liberal use of the words "innovative", "quality" and "cost-effective" as well, didn't it?

air_wolf

i know "innovative" was always my particular favourite.....

the writing's been on the wall ever since ctc started increasing course sizes to 10-12. any type of market downturn and they were going to struggle to place cadets. with the hold pool growing the only way they could place pilots was by sharing the work - hence FlexiScrew. if they'd only stuck to 4-6 a course like in the good old days.....

Mr_Big - people are just trying to help you out. I know you are excited about heading out to the Tron but you'd have to be mad to start now. If i were you i'd delay a year and re-assess things then. Work like a dog, earn some cash to part-fund the course then start the training when things start picking up. Itll be the best decision you make.

Mr_Bigglesworth

Thanks for all your replies. It's definitely an eye opener reading posts from you ex-CTCers who have been spat out the other side.

I was rather puzzled as to why CTC aren't cutting back on their intake, but if you have people willing to shell out 76K (Including the foundation course) why would they? Except the irreversible damage to their reputation as all graduates are left high and dry, not even being able to get jobs flying cargo planes full of rubber dog turd out of Hong Kong!

I certainly can't see CTC paying off the loans of ill fated grads. However, if it has come to that how can there be a future for the company.

As much as I hate to admit it air_wolf is right. I'm not prepared to get into such a massive debt, certainly not until flight crew intake is on the up across the industry.

Cheers for your advice everyone.

TheBeak

Mr Big, putting off your training is the best decision you'll ever make - it'll make the difference between you actually becoming a paid pilot and not.

Day_Dreamer

The reason CTC is still trying to attract cadets is simple :- The answer is that they have over stretched themselves and desperately need the cash flow.
While several years ago their product fitted into market requirements, now in a down turn they are struggling to survive.

Over other schools their selling point was near 100% employment after completion of their modular style course.
Today they do not have that edge, in fact there is more hot air coming from CTC than anything else, their get rich quick schemes are falling apart as quickly as their holding pool is filling up.

The main schools FTE, OAA will survive as their financial state is more secure than CTC so anyone looking at an integrated course should consider FTE or OAA.

The market is currently saturated with pilots, experienced and fATPL but in about 18 months this glut will have cleared and cadet jobs will be opening up again, so plan to finish your course about that time.

Unless CTC find a new way to attract investment and improve cash flow they wont be around to see the upturn.

davedek

Day_Dreamer, I'm not sure what facts you are basing your opinion on, but I can certainly tell you this - to say "The main schools FTE, OAA their financial state is more secure than CTC so anyone looking at an integrated course should consider FTE or OAA", and "they (CTC) wont be around to see the upturn" is bordering on ridiculous. What information do you have to back up your claims?

The fact that a fair number of cadets/ATPers were staying in 4* hotels during their type-ratings earlier this year (that's 7 weeks ish), and these hotels were paid for BY CTC, shows that CTC cant be doing badly for cash at all!

Oh... and CTC also paid for the type ratings. Forgot that. And as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), I've never heard of any other FTO, including those you have mentioned, paying for a trainee's type-rating.

BitMoreRightRudder

Absolutely priceless

TheBeak

Dave, I would say the point made by Day Dreamer is pretty accurate. If ever you needed an example, I'll give you one.

From Day Dreamer:

From Dave Dek:

It sounds like they are haemorrhaging money as a result of their piss poor planning and their lack of resource. Possibly caused by increasing course numbers without increasing resources.

Oh......you have been brain washed haven't you? I am going to let you in to a secret here Davey boy, no they didn't. But shoooooooosh. The airline have. And if they were one of those white tails that they did - guess what? No they didn't. The simulators were there regardless, correct? The instructors were on their payroll, correct? So they infact paid for electricity, correct? CTC aren't paying for anything. Are they a bottomless pit of money or a business?


And as a result of what you are saying above I'd say they are going to be a lot lighter in the pocket.

If they don't do something incredible by April 2010 they are in serious trouble I predict.