The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
How would you know? you don't. piss off.
Settle down ground wolf.
Your patronising comments are starting to annoy people.
Most of them are just kids... or they just like to act like one.
If I may offer my own view on the maths test - don't worry about it. If you have any amount of mathematical nous about you, it won't be too much of a problem. It's pretty basic GCSE / early AS-level standard stuff. By all means do a bit of practise beforehand and prepare yourself well, but don't spend the entire week beforehand on it - it's not that hard. In my opinion it's the easiest bit of the entire process.
I suspect jb5000 may well have hit the nail on the head with regard to selection at the moment, and not just at this FTO but at all of them. In the past, CTC could pick the cream of the crop at the interview process because the funding was so easy to get. I sorted mine out over the phone while in the pub. I got an extension to my repayments while waiting for a type rating by popping into the branch and having a 20-second conversation with the account manager. It just doesn't happen like that any more. I know one guy who has passed CTC selection but is delaying his start while he scrapes together the funding and waits for his family to remortgage some property. Not everyone is going to be in a position to do that, and those that are might not want to, so logic would dictate that to maintain course numbers, the FTOs will have to extend their selection criteria.
You would. Have to be. Certifiable. To start an Integrated course. Now.
Message ends.
WWW
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WWW
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In the past, CTC could pick the cream of the crop at the interview process because the funding was so easy to get. I sorted mine out over the phone while in the pub. I got an extension to my repayments while waiting for a type rating by popping into the branch and having a 20-second conversation with the account manager. It just doesn't happen like that any more. I know one guy who has passed CTC selection but is delaying his start while he scrapes together the funding and waits for his family to remortgage some property. Not everyone is going to be in a position to do that, and those that are might not want to, so logic would dictate that to maintain course numbers, the FTOs will have to extend their selection criteria.
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Listen to WWW's words ladies and gentlemen.
There are 250+ cadets now looking for employment, the "employment" that they are being offered is on a flexicrew contract.
250 cadets would be enough FOs for an airline of 35 aircraft.
That's more than Monarch.
If you start now, in 2 years time there will be another 200+ cadets having come through the course ahead of you.
That would be enough FOs for an airline of 64 aircraft.
That's enough to crew Thomson Airways, the merged airline of Thomsonfly and First Choice.
Certifiable doesn't quite cover it.
There are 250+ cadets now looking for employment, the "employment" that they are being offered is on a flexicrew contract.
250 cadets would be enough FOs for an airline of 35 aircraft.
That's more than Monarch.
If you start now, in 2 years time there will be another 200+ cadets having come through the course ahead of you.
That would be enough FOs for an airline of 64 aircraft.
That's enough to crew Thomson Airways, the merged airline of Thomsonfly and First Choice.
Certifiable doesn't quite cover it.
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Cool it now
Alright, enough!
Beak, I know full well about the climate and the state of the aviation industry and notice that I didn't even ask about this in my very short and direct question, so I don't give two sh!ts about what you think about it. Just because your getting nowhere with your ratings and quals doesn't mean someone else on this forum won't try. All your crap about others abilities when you don't even know them, take a hike! Got a degree in civil engineering & a ppl, so your input on my or anyones abilities is a pile of horse, keep it to yourself.
All that was asked for was a more in depth look at a specific part of the day, nout more! Your big mouth and unnecessary stupidity and attitude on the last page has blown the last two pages of this thread well out of proportion!
I'll give you some advice since you've given more than what was asked! Think about what you've typed and then think about it again. It's highly likely that most of what you were going to type initially will have been disposed of, given it was utter bollocks and unnecessary.
Thats it, I'm done here.
(Cue your childish comeback no doubt. I won't waste my time reading it. Moving on).
Beak, I know full well about the climate and the state of the aviation industry and notice that I didn't even ask about this in my very short and direct question, so I don't give two sh!ts about what you think about it. Just because your getting nowhere with your ratings and quals doesn't mean someone else on this forum won't try. All your crap about others abilities when you don't even know them, take a hike! Got a degree in civil engineering & a ppl, so your input on my or anyones abilities is a pile of horse, keep it to yourself.
All that was asked for was a more in depth look at a specific part of the day, nout more! Your big mouth and unnecessary stupidity and attitude on the last page has blown the last two pages of this thread well out of proportion!
I'll give you some advice since you've given more than what was asked! Think about what you've typed and then think about it again. It's highly likely that most of what you were going to type initially will have been disposed of, given it was utter bollocks and unnecessary.
Thats it, I'm done here.
(Cue your childish comeback no doubt. I won't waste my time reading it. Moving on).
Last edited by Gavin53; 30th Jul 2009 at 01:28.
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
P.S. This statement is not directed at any poster in particular, just a reflection on many of the posts in this thread.
P.S. This statement is not directed at any poster in particular, just a reflection on many of the posts in this thread.
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Just because your getting nowhere with your ratings and quals doesn't mean someone else on this forum won't try.
Go and do the training Gav, we need people like you to maintain a grain of movement in the economy.
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
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Over the next 3 years EZY are projecting to increase the fleet by 26 aircraft (to end of sept 2012). Not sure how many crews we have per aircraft but I think its about 4? (I have heard figures ranging from 3.5 to 7!!). WWW probably knows so hopefully he can correct me.
FO's will hopefully move into the LHS as we grow. If those Capt.'s go across full time (the very last batch of skippers are doing 6 months in the LHS then moving back to the RHS) then that means we need about 208 new FO's during the busy season in 2012 compared to this summer.
Add in a few retirements creating room for a few FO's to upgrade and a few leavers (medical, other airlines).
Not sure how accurate jb5000's figures are but using my fag packet very rough calculation it could take a while to empty the hold pool!! At least it will be emptying though I guess!
If you start now with CTC plan to work for a few years after graduation before getting a fixed term contract and you won't be upset and out of pocket. Anything else is a bonus.
Add up all the potential future recruitment and you will be very very hard pushed to get all the CTC cadets jobs in the UK. EZY have historically been by far the biggest recruiter from CTC. Other airlines have only taken a trickle of guys (by comparison) even during the good times.
Go in with your eyes open and a strong bank balance!
FO's will hopefully move into the LHS as we grow. If those Capt.'s go across full time (the very last batch of skippers are doing 6 months in the LHS then moving back to the RHS) then that means we need about 208 new FO's during the busy season in 2012 compared to this summer.
Add in a few retirements creating room for a few FO's to upgrade and a few leavers (medical, other airlines).
Not sure how accurate jb5000's figures are but using my fag packet very rough calculation it could take a while to empty the hold pool!! At least it will be emptying though I guess!
If you start now with CTC plan to work for a few years after graduation before getting a fixed term contract and you won't be upset and out of pocket. Anything else is a bonus.
Add up all the potential future recruitment and you will be very very hard pushed to get all the CTC cadets jobs in the UK. EZY have historically been by far the biggest recruiter from CTC. Other airlines have only taken a trickle of guys (by comparison) even during the good times.
Go in with your eyes open and a strong bank balance!
As discussed elsewhere there are a *lot* of available pilots on the market and nobody says easyJet needs more British cadets who don't speak Spanish or Italian (countries where easyJet is likely to expand) and only speak English (the UK market is likely to contract).
Look at the situation in Spain regards pilots already unemployed:
LTE, bankrupt, approx 110 pilots airbus
Girjet, bankrupt, approx 85 pilots airbus, boeing, fokker 100
Futura, bankrupt, approx 400 pilots, boeing
Gadair, ???, approx 16 pilots, boeing
Hola, ???, 75% laid off, boeing
LagunAir, bankrupt, 35 pilots, embraer
Air Comet, on the verge, 400 plus pilots, airbus, legacy
Spanair, talking about further layoffs, airbus, mc donnell douglas
Air Nostrum, lay offs, 180 approx, canadair, fokker, atr
CTC cadets *may* be preferable over locally recruited experienced pilots. I really wouldn't know. But I'm guessing the experienced and sometimes type rated locals would crawl over broken glass to get a job with the likes of Ryanair and easyJet at their Spanish bases. They might be happy to undercut cadets is that's even unhumanly possible.
Unchartered waters.
Taking on £75,000 of time expiring training debt is a pure gamble at this time.
WWW
Look at the situation in Spain regards pilots already unemployed:
LTE, bankrupt, approx 110 pilots airbus
Girjet, bankrupt, approx 85 pilots airbus, boeing, fokker 100
Futura, bankrupt, approx 400 pilots, boeing
Gadair, ???, approx 16 pilots, boeing
Hola, ???, 75% laid off, boeing
LagunAir, bankrupt, 35 pilots, embraer
Air Comet, on the verge, 400 plus pilots, airbus, legacy
Spanair, talking about further layoffs, airbus, mc donnell douglas
Air Nostrum, lay offs, 180 approx, canadair, fokker, atr
CTC cadets *may* be preferable over locally recruited experienced pilots. I really wouldn't know. But I'm guessing the experienced and sometimes type rated locals would crawl over broken glass to get a job with the likes of Ryanair and easyJet at their Spanish bases. They might be happy to undercut cadets is that's even unhumanly possible.
Unchartered waters.
Taking on £75,000 of time expiring training debt is a pure gamble at this time.
WWW
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All training is a bit of a gamble I would have thought, albeit sometimes it is a bigger gamble than other times. There could be some terrible world development at any point during your training.
Sept 11th being an excellent example.
Think of pilot training as a game of Russian Roulette. The usual game has a gun with only has 1 bullet and 5 empty chambers.
Starting an Integrated course now or in the near future is like playing with 5 bullets and 1 empty chamber. Its still just a gamble but...
WWW
Think of pilot training as a game of Russian Roulette. The usual game has a gun with only has 1 bullet and 5 empty chambers.
Starting an Integrated course now or in the near future is like playing with 5 bullets and 1 empty chamber. Its still just a gamble but...
WWW
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Originally Posted by one post only!
Over the next 3 years EZY are projecting to increase the fleet by 26 aircraft (to end of sept 2012)
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Surley the best strategy is to get rated and buy a minimum of 500hrs Line Training.
Without this how will anyone compete with the folks already in the game. All that remains is a impressive 'Blue Beer Mat' of a licence.
The truth is it would appear that 500hrs on type will allow an application to most positions. Sad though it is, the wannabes hand is forced.
I do not believe that there remains any employment stigma associated with paying for these initial 500 hours. These schemes have become the norm, why else would EZY, BMI etc be willing to engage with them?
Pay up and get some hours, or write off your losses and dream no more!
Without this how will anyone compete with the folks already in the game. All that remains is a impressive 'Blue Beer Mat' of a licence.
The truth is it would appear that 500hrs on type will allow an application to most positions. Sad though it is, the wannabes hand is forced.
I do not believe that there remains any employment stigma associated with paying for these initial 500 hours. These schemes have become the norm, why else would EZY, BMI etc be willing to engage with them?
Pay up and get some hours, or write off your losses and dream no more!
Please tell me that last post is a wind up? I had an early 4 sectors today and my sense of humour might not be quite in gear.
It will allow an application if you have about 1500hrs total time as well, which will almost certainly not be the case if you buy these 500hrs having just completed a 250hr fATPL course.
Do NOT pay for line training. Please.
The truth is it would appear that 500hrs on type will allow an application to most positions.
Do NOT pay for line training. Please.
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So; you have secured a job then Zippy. Indeed, you have been paid to operate 4 sectors today.
How on earth are any of these FATPL's going to get into the same position as you then? Have you seen loads of job openings for unrated low hour drivers in 'Flight'?
Or perhaps you're of the opinion that they should just be left high and dry with useless licences and PA28 ratings! Maybe they should all go and become part time instructors?
There are no jobs unless you are rated and 500hrs on type so 'splashing the cash' is here to stay. Maybe then they can get up and do a 4 sector early and get paid one day too!
I don't like the 'pay to fly' schemes but accept that we were lucky compared with our friends that are looking for work with a FATPL.
How on earth are any of these FATPL's going to get into the same position as you then? Have you seen loads of job openings for unrated low hour drivers in 'Flight'?
Or perhaps you're of the opinion that they should just be left high and dry with useless licences and PA28 ratings! Maybe they should all go and become part time instructors?
There are no jobs unless you are rated and 500hrs on type so 'splashing the cash' is here to stay. Maybe then they can get up and do a 4 sector early and get paid one day too!
I don't like the 'pay to fly' schemes but accept that we were lucky compared with our friends that are looking for work with a FATPL.
A few points then...
- Where on earth is someone up to their eyeballs in debt, most of it nowadays secured, from an integrated course going to get the money to then go and buy 500 hours of line training?
- I can tell you from recent past experience of my own and of others, that 500 hours on a jet making around 750-800hrs total time, as would be the case with many fresh fATPL holders out of expensive courses, is absolutely no use whatsoever. You don't fill the criteria for most jobs, agencies will simply tell you to go away, and the very few for which you do meet the requirements will be so inundated with spontaneous applications that they won't even bother to acknowledge receipt.
- So, you've bought 500 hours on a jet and you still don't have a job. Then what? Another 500? Where does it end? And where will it end for the greedy organisations plying their trade in this part of the industry?
-
No they haven't - yet. There are a few isolated cases, and EZY have stopped dealing with the organisation that conducted this sort of training last year. But they will become the norm if people succumb to your way of thinking. As I asked - where does it end?
-
Have you seen ANY job openings for rated low-hour 'drivers' ANYWHERE?
- What does this have to do with the CTC scheme?
- Where on earth is someone up to their eyeballs in debt, most of it nowadays secured, from an integrated course going to get the money to then go and buy 500 hours of line training?
- I can tell you from recent past experience of my own and of others, that 500 hours on a jet making around 750-800hrs total time, as would be the case with many fresh fATPL holders out of expensive courses, is absolutely no use whatsoever. You don't fill the criteria for most jobs, agencies will simply tell you to go away, and the very few for which you do meet the requirements will be so inundated with spontaneous applications that they won't even bother to acknowledge receipt.
- So, you've bought 500 hours on a jet and you still don't have a job. Then what? Another 500? Where does it end? And where will it end for the greedy organisations plying their trade in this part of the industry?
-
These schemes have become the norm
-
Have you seen loads of job openings for unrated low hour drivers in 'Flight'?
- What does this have to do with the CTC scheme?
Big Number and others.
Tell us where does it end. It's almost like the guy at the casino, things haven't gone well for him, but his luck must change soon, he's bet his last dollar plus any his family has and is going "double or quits" but will that be the end if he doesn't win this time?
You are suggesting 500 hours of self funded line training but it won't end there. Remember this whole process started with just paying for a type rating.
If we all sat down and took a look at what the totals costs were, of what some are suggesting is the only way into a job, and worked out how long it was before there was any real rate of return there might be a bit of reality.
By total costs I mean the initial costs through to a CPL and Instrument rating (or that funny thing you guys call an fATPL) plus a type rating, then any self funded line training, any other costs of gaining employment, the costs of supporting yourself/family for this time and the opportunity cost or interest on the money spent.
If you want to fly that much it would be cheaper (and better for everyone) for you to get another job and do a PPL and pay for your flying that way.
Forgive my butting in here, but I see plenty of people from the UK over here doing their training at the moment and I wonder/despair where they are going to get a job.
So, you've bought 500 hours on a jet and you still don't have a job. Then what? Another 500? Where does it end? And where will it end for the greedy organisations plying their trade in this part of the industry?
You are suggesting 500 hours of self funded line training but it won't end there. Remember this whole process started with just paying for a type rating.
If we all sat down and took a look at what the totals costs were, of what some are suggesting is the only way into a job, and worked out how long it was before there was any real rate of return there might be a bit of reality.
By total costs I mean the initial costs through to a CPL and Instrument rating (or that funny thing you guys call an fATPL) plus a type rating, then any self funded line training, any other costs of gaining employment, the costs of supporting yourself/family for this time and the opportunity cost or interest on the money spent.
If you want to fly that much it would be cheaper (and better for everyone) for you to get another job and do a PPL and pay for your flying that way.
Forgive my butting in here, but I see plenty of people from the UK over here doing their training at the moment and I wonder/despair where they are going to get a job.
Last edited by 27/09; 9th Aug 2009 at 09:04.
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