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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 2nd Jul 2009, 14:40
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Q. Employment?
A. BA won't be hiring until 2011, but then they will need 400 pilots

Ok things may pick up in the future but how can numbers like 400 pilots be banded about, BA don't even know how many pilots they need in 2010! How CTC know is a mystery to me.
To expand on this a bit...

Charlie Maunder from BA met with CTC cadets last Friday.

He said that BA were not anticipating any hiring until around April 2011. When asked how many pilots they were likely to need, he said something along the lines of: The need could start off as just a trickle of pilots, going up to around 400 pilots a year if/when recruitment gets going.

He did point out a couple of times that the subject of recruitment was more of an 'if' then a 'when' and that they were in a struggle for survival.
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Old 2nd Jul 2009, 16:06
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The problem is Sky Wave, you're advice is all rather generic and without timescale. Goals and plans muct be time specific and WITHOUT QUESTION now is a dreadful time to start training. I read somewhere that OAA are having to put on an extra course because so many people are training. So not only is the economy screwed but there are EVEN more people to compete with. As for the luck, there is no point trying to guess that, you either will be or you wont, and, you WONT make your own luck contrary to popular belief which is why the concept of fairness is flawed. The word doesn't exist in my vocabulary. Balance does however and training now you will inevitably end up with a seemingly imbalanced outcome i.e. lots of work for no reward.
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Old 2nd Jul 2009, 16:49
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Will BA be around in 2011?
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Old 2nd Jul 2009, 17:02
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I heard CTC is "selling" their MCC course + FULL pool for over 8k.
I have to say if this info is real, some of you should open your eyes and this should be an indication to you how desparate for money they have to be!
They know that people paying so much money for MCC wont be able to get any job and will be out of their pool in 12 months anyway. This really shows what they have their current/future students for... FOOLS, isnt it?
And for GOD sake... All you that finished your training 2-3 years ago, I do congratulate you on your jet jobs, but THINK before you advertise to any wannabe about going to CTC now.
Times has changed and spending +70k right now will make CTC happy ONLY! Theres nothing in for you!
80-90 (is it?) cadets in their pool should speek for it self, but I guess it doesnt...
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Old 2nd Jul 2009, 17:18
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Err, yes BGG, it's called the ATP Scheme and has been around longer than the Cadet Scheme.
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Old 3rd Jul 2009, 11:06
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12 months in the pool ?

Could anybody quote any official reference to these 12 months ?
Best regards,
FSP
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Old 3rd Jul 2009, 15:16
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Not sure if a public forum is the best place to discuss the finer points of the contract. Not only is it technically in breach of terms&conditions
From an earlier poster, so I don't imagine you can get anything official on here. I wonder why it is all so TOP SECRET?

I have however heard that mentioned on here many times, I don't think that is a big secret.
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Old 3rd Jul 2009, 17:20
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Top secret? Not at all...

Anyone trawling a rumour forum for official information frankly needs their head read. Anyone can write anything, for whatever reason. Granted, it is useful for picking up information here and there, but seriously...

TheBeak, I'd love to know your story old chap...
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Old 3rd Jul 2009, 19:52
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TheBeak, I'd love to know your story old chap...
Unlike FTOs I don't have a 'story'. And who says that I am a chap?

I wasn't intending anything other than pointing out to FrenchScotPilot that he or she may not get a response due to your earlier point of it being in breach of contract for anyone with 'official' information to share it. I don't see why the contract would be so secretive either, anyone intending on signing up has to see it. You can't hide things in contracts, both parties must have full knowledge and understanding to sign it. I can understand if it was joining a company and not discussing salaries et cetera but it isn't, perhaps someone can explain.

As for my background Mister McDoo old bean......I trained at a large FTO modularly, flew the NG and now no job. And I don't see why I should have to go to the likes of Nigeria to use my licence - family or flying? Family has never let me down and flying has done nothing but......I now would like to offer my advice, for what it is worth, to anyone who may wish to listen. Why CTCs page? Because the company is like the sirens to Odysseus and because it is the only FTO thread that people seem to speak on. It is also a good indicator of the industrys next steps and things like a building holdpool and trainees from this particular FTO having to renew IRs worries me.

Happy?

There very genuinely is no nasty alterior motive to anyone or any FTO.
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Old 3rd Jul 2009, 23:53
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I applied for the CTC Cadet scheme a few days ago. Got an email today telling me that I don't meet the criteria and therefore will not progress.
Looking at the criteria set out on their website though, it seems I do meet it.

I have the right to live and work in the EU
I have 5 GCSEs including Maths, English and Science at grade C or above
I have the equivalent of 3 A-levels at grade C
I'm fluent in English

I don't get it. Maybe the A-levels? It does say preferably in maths and a science subject. Mine qualifications are in business. But 'preferably' is not the same as 'must'.

Anyway I emailed them and they said they don't give feedback on individual applications.

I'm not too bothered if I'm going to be honest, but I was just curious as to where I don't meet the criteria.
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Old 4th Jul 2009, 03:46
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Sorry to hear you didn't pass the screening process. It's kind of a secret and nobody can really tell what you need to go further in the selection.
But it shows at least that CTC is not that desperate to find people and money as we can read so often...

16 new guys arrived yesterday, the biggest CP ever (according to them). I can't tell anyone to go for it now as times are really bad but see what happens to those currently flying the summer season with EZY and you'll have a better idea of wether to proceed further or not.

CTC is for sure a good training provider, but what makes it different is definitly its contact within the industry... Let's just wait few months to see what happens, that would be my advise.

Last edited by Bambe; 4th Jul 2009 at 05:42.
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Old 4th Jul 2009, 14:24
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Beak - sorry to hear you're out of a job, nightmare situation I wouldnt wish on anyone. As an ex-CTCer though, I do disagree with a few of your comments. CTC, for all its flaws, is a good training provider run by good people. Sure, it has all the glossy marketing brochures and will always talk-up the industry, but what else would you expect. Every company from every industry does this. Its ultimately up to the cadet to wade through all this information and reach a decision if/when to commence training. Im sure wannabes are grateful for your point of view, but I would balance this by saying that when the industry shows signs of picking up/recruitment, I think OAA/CTC etc is the way to go. Usually in life you get what you pay for - flight training is no different.
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Old 4th Jul 2009, 15:42
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air_wolf,

Everything is nice, but...
You probably finished your training and went straight into soem jet job, so everything look nice in good times. Everybody is happy and its seems like its good value for money.
I guess we will see how good/bad CTC is in max. one year time when there will be 250-300 people in their pool with some close to 2 years mark and getting ready for their 2nd IR/medical (dont know who is paying for it)
Do they actually keep them for 2 years or even longer?
Might be actually sooner if they keep them for one year only.
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Old 4th Jul 2009, 16:01
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i agree, being in the hold pool must be extremely tough. but then again, i've got mates who've gone modular, cant even get a sniff of a job and have plenty of debts themselves. in these tough times i'd still rather be sitting in the ctc hold pool than looking for a job by myself. whichever training route people have chosen, they will still be looking at IR/medical renewals themselves. its not particular to ctc.

its all about timing/luck. thats why i mentioned "when the industry picks up" ctc/oaa is still the way to go. just my opinion, sure there are many people who disagree.

lets just hope things turnaround quickly (and this government doesn't press ahead with the airline passenger duty increases).
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Old 5th Jul 2009, 00:50
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99jolegg

It can't be that simple, the interview lasts approx 40 minutes. I'm expected to talk 10 minutes about each question and what if I get asked 4 "weak" questions not really fair... Have you been through the interview?
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Old 5th Jul 2009, 00:54
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mike172

Can you reapply after being turned down at application? Are you 100% sure your A-level equivalents are actually equivalent?
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Old 5th Jul 2009, 05:56
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Originally Posted by pilotguy08
It can't be that simple, the interview lasts approx 40 minutes. I'm expected to talk 10 minutes about each question and what if I get asked 4 "weak" questions not really fair... Have you been through the interview?
If the process is the same as when I sat it, then you will receive 4 questions by email. Answer the questions and send them back to CTC. They then use these answers as a basis for the interview to build up a picture about you. They won't ask you the same question as it was written when you answered it.

The initial questions are along the same line as those that you have already hinted at. Your interview will then be partly formed around those questions and your answers. They may even ask you for examples (in the interview) that you haven't already mentioned in your written answers.

Like I say, that's unless they've changed things drastically since I went through selection.

Good luck!
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Old 5th Jul 2009, 21:00
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air wolf - why would you choose to be more in debt but be in the CTC pool than less in debt and be a free agent on the jobs market?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Its expensive to get in the pool. They only talk to part of the market. You are free to talk to the whole market. Others in the same pool will be given priority above you.

****ty sounding deal to me. Nice brochure though. And loads of ex-training captains in Southampton who'll tell you all about the industry.

As it was.

Ten years ago.

Which is a lifetime.

Most of the CTC instructors are a bit sad if anything. Retired Nigels with a couple of divorces to fund, low cost training captains who thought they'd found a way to a 1970's BA lifestyle 30 years on, or, really crusty types who were swept along Cranwells halls back when it was easy.



WWW
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Old 5th Jul 2009, 21:32
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WWW - think we've done the whole ctc/oaa vs modular training argument before. each has their advantages, comes down to personal preference at the end of the day.

your description of the instructors at southampton did make me smile. you ever thought about applying?
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Old 6th Jul 2009, 08:41
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I haven't been on this forum for what must be a few months now... if you ont mind, i'll briefly summarise my thoughts...

last june i graduated from university with a 2.1 hons in microbiology. i had always liked the idea of becoming a pilot, and in my last year at university, is started researching the means to achieving the job... july came, and i applied for the CTC Wings course, having inquired about it some 2 years earlier and after reading just about every thread on this forum regarding CTC, they seemed like the best FTO - i passed Stage 1, no suprises, i had what i needed in this respect...I was still skint from a tortuous final year at uni, so gathering together the 200 odd quid to book stage 2 was a challenge, and at the time, it went against logic to do it, as the little voice in my head said;' statistically, you have approx 2% chance of being selected, and you are going to spent mor ethan you're last pennies on a subjective selection?'... regardless i booked it...

While signing up to science recruitment agencies and going to interviews for graduate jobs, i studied, ****ing hard, my phase 2 was on september 9th/08, and that gave me 2 months to absorb as much info regarding the aviation industry as i could. I bought and read books, sent emails out to every flight operator and airport in the country/region requesting work experience (with little joy thanks to religous extremism). I bought maths books and every night i spent hours just doing arithmetic as i knew that this was the weakest chink in my armoury. i had never flown a plane before, so i sold some of my belongings to get a few hours on my logbook and instantly knew i was doing the right thing. i spent an open day at newcastle's brand new ATC operation, and boy was that a great day. even on the journey down to southampton, i flew with easyjet one way, i could only afford the plane ticket there, so i could quiz the pilot after we reached stansted, i took the megabus back on a journey from hell...

The phase 2 was gripping... i arrived in southhampton the day beforehand, as i live in newcastle, so had a bloody long way to go, and wanted a good night's sleep - the facilities at the manor were spotty dog, everyone was freindly and the bed was very comfortable, but bugger me - was i nervous.i sepnt all night doing mental arithmatic, and revising how many 767s BA had, and where they flew etc, i gave myself 4 hours sleep so i could spend a further couple of hours in the morning revising.the next day, people started arriving for selection, and we were split off into two groups; i would be doing my group excercises first, and Pilapt second - i wasn't sure if i prefered this, or vice versa! the excercises were fun, and you had to try very hard to remain composed, behaving like they want you to behave...after this there was a break, and we got to know our rivals a little better, some had degrees, some didnt, some had PPLs, most didnt. instantly, you could weed out the ones you knew had already screwed up, and just talking to them validated your original suspicions that they had not prepared one little bit for the days proceedings, but never mind...

Next was pilapt, now, in an interview situation, i like to look smart, this means suit; tie; quality shirt (with cufflinks) etc- had i known the pilapt test would be so absrbing, i'd rather have worn a string vest! sweating as i was as, i peeled layer off after layer, i worked my way through the maths questions, not sure if i'd cocked up or not - you dont get much time. as for pilapt, a lot of it was ok, my favourite being where you had to fly through the boxes - my recent purchase of Fligt SimX probably got me through that one! the last task was truly an ordeal, even though i tried as hard as i could, no preparation could prepare you for the absolute assault on your mental capacity as you counted down, notifying exceptions in sequence, whilst simultaneously localising a crosshair, and identifying shapes, colours and numbers correctly. tough stuff and it didnt get any better during lunch...


Now... for 200 odd quid, i kind of expected a little more than some slices of ham and potato salad, but regardless, i wasnt much in the mood for food as i heard recantations of the other peoples experiences - the difficult ones to hear were the, 'oh the maths questions were sooo easy!' and 'i did my pilapt in about 10 minutes'. i tried to ignore it, but once we were led into the room where we were told that some would be sent home, some sent home and invted back for reapplication, and some going through to phase 3, the nerves really started tugging... the names were read out; 8 people sent into different rooms before finally mine, and a freindly austrian's were mentioned. so me, and this other chap were looking at each other (dont worry, it doesnt get mills and boon), thinking the same thing - out of the 14 candidates, some of which were very strong, there was no way that only us two made the cut, therefore, we were going home...

The lady that held the presentation that morning (through which i fell asleep several times and hoped no-one noticed, which they did) came in with a clipboard and a kindly expression upon her face, 'now, you know not everbody can get through, so i wont beat around the bush because its not fair on your emotions...' i nodded acceptingly- 'buggeration', i thought... 'congratulations, you passed phase 2!'
Couldnt believe it, i think my grin was wider than the fireplace, i immediately shook the hand of the austrian wo i'd later find out was called Michael...After what seemed like 30 seconds, the unseccessful candidates came through, and we chatted for a bit, some people being a little rude, but others being really nice and encouraging.

The interviews shortley followed, and the girl that interviewed me was very... 'appealing'... anyway, it was a very comfortable interview - i stumbled in a few areas, clearly not giving the right answer, but trying my best non the less, i felt pessimistcally opimistic. that was it, we'd find out how we'd get on in a couple of days, i took the train back to london with michael, we had a pint and i took the worst bus ride in history home- i'd had 4 hours sleep in the ast 36 hours by this point, and sitting next to a horrendously fat and smelly person, with my knees up to my chin due to economical seating arrangements was not going to improve the sleep deficit.

Two days later, i recieve the email i didnt want to see, i hand't been successful, but they felt i was close, so i could comeback in 6 months time for another go - this was a pivotal moment. I emailed Michael to see how he got on, almost sure that this guy was a dead cert - he flew thru pilapt and already had many hours on even MEPs! But apparently not, not even an invitation to try again whcih was very puzzling.After a couple of weeks, my assesor sent me some constructive criticism of the areas i needed to improve on - the main being my knowledge of CRM - i was a little puzzled at this, seeing as CRM is nothing you couldnt be taught whilst on a course, never the less, i embarked on a few routes to educating myself on the matter, namely buying the book 'The Naked Pilot' - a good book detailing the psychology behind air disasters. this book turned out to be dream shattering.

I came across the chapter which was based on pilot fatigue, and it drilled every single negative thing about flying into my brain - the hours, the monotony, the illness, the rotas, the missing of childrens birthdays, the divorce rate and stress... but most critical? the statistic that the 60%+ of pliots never reach retirement age. i'm not scared of crashing, but you have to ask, in an industry where you are fervently checked on medical grounds, can the job be so bad that heart disease and strokes reduce your life expectancy by 10-15 years? bugger that! add to that the section where the author mentions sleeping during flights - while i was at uni, i was known as mr sleepy, i couldnt get through 1 lecture without falling asleep, regardless of the time, and it is still the case today as i recently found out so how would i manage a transatlantic flight at night with the soothing whirr of jet engines and a cnfortablly heated flight deck?


After thinking long and hard, i've pretty much dropped the idea of being a commercial pilot - i think i'd get through the exams no problem, and i dare say i might enjoy the job for a few years, but i think i know myself that in the long run, i dont want to spend a life changing sum of money, gambling on whether i will a) find a job, and b) enjoy it. Just after my selection at CTC, i took an interview for an R&D job with one of the worlds biggest blue chip company's and was lucky enough to be successful, they say that with this particular company, you have more chance of getting into harvard, and perhaps in that case, CTC... with a reasonably secure graduate job with a sound future, looking back i do wonder about the what ifs, and whereas had the recession (which had ony just began to take affect last year) not happened, i might have been chewing my ear, now i look back and think... thank ****ing god. wondering about those ppor sods in the holding pool... i still have the option of reassesment, so who knows what will happen, one thing is for sure, i'll get a PPL, becuase flying is just the cats tats.

Sorry for length, hopefully i'll have inadvertantly answered a few n00b questions in advance, and give an opinion that isnt prejudicial at all on any FTOs... and for anybody that says "well if just took a book to put you off, then you cant really have wanted it much in the first place", can boil their heads...

Last edited by EvelcyclopS; 6th Jul 2009 at 16:58. Reason: paragraphs went missing
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