GBB

ScottFlyer,

Hmmm, I would advise you to go and have a look at the minimums for FO jobs in the Middle East and rethink....
What you said is NOT going to happen as they ALL have piles and piles of applications from people that are high above their minimum req.
There is no history of ME Airlines taking low hours international cadets (EY as the only one got their OWN international cadets), many ME airlines have their in-house local cadets to be placed.
Im sorry to ruin your party but ME Airlines do NOT need CTC or any other expat cadets!

TheBeak

It's the 'there will' and the 'no doubt' bit that gets me. Think before you speak, your words might just fall on suggestable ears, like your own, and convince some desperate soul to sign his or her parents home up for £95K worth of debt by the end of the loans term. Wait for the 'No, no, CTC have told me there will be' comment. ScottFlyer I have half a ton of Alsatian sh*t you can buy as well, THERE WILL be very high demand for it in the Middle East NO DOUBT.

Zippy Monster

Actually I do.

Because I was one of them.

poss

If ctc decide to limit a cadets time in the holding pool to 12 months thats a lot of dosh lost on their behalf as they make most of their money through type rating cadets and the airlines paying for it, if they allow people to stew in the holding pool and are able to make money from the IR's going out of date (which they initially said they would pay for in terms of renewals) then why wouldn't they, it's no skin of their backs. They are a profit organisation and at no point do they lead you to believe otherwise.
These are hard times and we all must accept that.

TheTank

This is my 1st post although been reading this thread for sometime now. Was just hoping for some advice from any of you experienced chaps out there.

Let me briefly tell you where i'm coming from - nearly 30 yrs old and worked in finance for many yrs (so know all about struggling industries) wish to do something else with my life so thought that trying something i've always wanted to do might be the way to go. i.e Flying... I understand the industry is crap at the mo and could be for a long while, however doing a job you don't have any love for can be a little soul distroying so very keen to get into this as a new career even if its a steep uphill battle.

Anyway..... Got accepted on CTC course after passing the assesment a couple of months back but have had no joy at all in securing the funding as no security. (big surprise hey). So this route is not looking very likely. However in my endless searching i've realised that in canada i could to go from zero hours to fATPL for approx 15-20k (sterling) which i have saved already. I'm a bit low on details at moment but I'm due to visit family in Toronto in the next few weeks and will look into individual schools when there.

..But can anyone advise whether this route (possibly without TR and placement) would be a worthwhile way to go or not??? I'm guessing i'd still need to shell out roughly 25k for TR on top to get any airline job?

Any tips or comments welcome, Possitive or negative

Thanks guys!

TheBeak

Of course it is a worthwhile way to go. Integrated is not the be all and end all. If you are looking to get a JAA licence then you are going to need to do something like 15-20 hours flying within JAA land and consider where you will do the ATPLs, regardless of doing them distance learning you'll have to fly back a couple of times so factor that in. A TR and job are not included in many courses and it'll be interesting to see if you really have missed out on that aspect of the course with CTC by not being able to raise the funds. These are certainly some of the toughest times they will have faced.

The other thing I would say is you are going to need more than £15-20K, no matter what they tell you. Distance learning ATPL is £2000 plus exam fees, plus flights to Canada and back, plus living out their and here.

I think you are sensible not trying to secure that money. If desperation will possibly keep it that way, don't.

Wee Weasley Welshman

I've done a bit of editing. The discussion about the wider state of the industry, Flight Data Monitoring and so forth was not very much at all to do with this thread topic. It has been transplanted to:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...pon-us-66.html



We had an incident of serious thread tangent going on. ;-)


WWW

GBB

TheTank,

I would say that with 15-20k you wont be able to get full training even in Canada (forget about JAA convesions, this will cost you no lees than 15k if all done in UK).
You could probably get FAA PPL, IR/ME and CPL for about 25k with today exchange rate and go try to get a job somwhere in Africa for sometime, but if you want to stay/work in UK/EU all this is going to cost you much more. (I would say about 40-45k)

Good luck

free_hat

Scott,

Best intentions meant, but i would take one giant step back and take a very very good read of all the CTC threads and redecide. Your optimism is very worrying to say the least! No offence but someone who thinks that the 30 laid off are 50-60 years of age is suffering from severe wannabe optimism syndrome (WOS).

Seriously, I dont mean to be rude, and I dont know you, but I advise you to get all the facts and then make a decision based on truth, not optimism. I have been in the exact same situation as you recently and have done some major research on the industry. I dont want anything more than to fly, but I decided not to proceed. If you want reasons then PM me, ill be happy to help.

Air_One

Once you have been accepted by CTC you can't defer the place for 2 or 3 years - when the job market might be a little better for job hunting.

So they put pressure on people to start training now....
Does anyone know what is happening to current CTC cadets who just graduated?

Bambe

They are swiming mate, they are swiming!!! But who's not right now?

ProPwannabe

As an interest of the CTC cadet program, readin forums and website to research as much as i can about it (which im sure alot of you guys are doing if youre readin this) i thought it might be worth posting the section of FAQ of the ctc cadet program regarding the bond.

What is my liability for the loan I take to fund my bond? Whether you provide the bond through bank finance or another source, you will remain liable for the bond. However, on employment with an airline as a pre-selected cadet you will benefit from a contracted commitment to repay the bond through monthly repayments over a set period of time as agreed with your sponsor airline as long as you fulfil your employment commitments. The bond repayments are planned to be sufficient to cover all of your commitment to the loan, if you take one.



If I am pre-selected by an airline, will the airline repay my bond in a single lump sum or in installments? The employing airline will normally repay the bond in monthly installments.


The employing airline will normally repay the bond in monthly installments.

As I understand it, YES u have to come up with £69000 which u pay in installments for the Bond. So really its a self sponsored training!? right?

Also if I was to be sucessfully accepted onto the course and have fully completed the training, then get employed by their partner airlines, the bond is then transferred to the airline where the airline will pay you back monthly?
hmm.. im trying to look at the wider picture and looking for the catch. Is there a possibility that they say ok we pay you a reduced salary and the extra savings they make they would use it to pay off some of your bond with your own money?? So all in all you are completely liable for the training costs??

Someone please tell me im wrong.!!

I understand the dangers of making assumptions at the moment, but hopefully someone can point out the advantages of ctc cadet program other than its 'prestigious' name.


for those who like to read the FAQ section of ctc cadet:
CTC Wings - FAQs

akindofmagic

CTC is a completely self sponsored scheme. In every way, shape and form. There is no element of sponsorship whatsoever. As you have quite rightly deduced, in return for your airline paying you back your "bond" every month, you are paid a reduced salary.

Air_One

It is totally self sponsored. However the big difference is that the employment prospects for CTC cadets (historically) were very good. They claim 100% success rate for placements on their web site.

BUT I am still not sure if that is currently the case ?
Anyone with information ?

Bambe

Let's make it clear, YOU PAY FOR YOUR TRAINING!!!
CTC was prestigious for 2 things :

1. Providing every successful candidates with an unsecured loan covering training cost + living expenses for 2 years
2. Its unbeatable job placement history.

The unsecured loan is no longer available an we all know what the job opportunities currently are.

When under the normal scheme (6 months line training then employed under permanent contract) the only advantage was that you would get 1000 tax free pounds a month on the top of your REDUCED SALARY... There's never been any sponsorship and every single cadet paid for his training. But that was still a great deal.

Just give it a few months to see what happens next

TheBeak

Why? If you have met the standard then you have met the standard, your own availability to train is YOUR choice not theirs, it's YOUR money. Beware.

In order for the airlines to 'take on your bond' you would need to be taken on at the end of the 6 months as I understand it. At the moment you'll be lucky to get the 6 months at all.

Absolutely, the next 9 months will be very telling for this FTO in particular, in my opinion.

FANS

If your heart is set on integrated, I reckon CTC has in the past been the best option by a long way:

- It's been cheaper than the others
- It links with EZY etc has got you straight into the RHS with no upfront TR (yes, I know you work for £1k/month to start with though)
- Its placement track record is outstanding
- It's bond system is a mega tax efficient way that actually saves a lot of money

However, in the present climate, unless you have the money to loose, you'd be barking to start on a course now. Why not wait 12 months for things to become clearer, as right now no airline really knows what they'll be doing next?

One9iner

I popped along to Nursling this Sat 27/06/09 for the CTC Wings Open Day. Did anyone else on here do so as well?

If so, what were your thoughts on the day, and the feedback provided re: holding pool, loan/bond detail changes, marketing bumf, employment prospects, holding pool, flexi contracts etc..?

I found the day enjoyable, and felt I gathered a good amount of different opinions from different sorts of people;
e.g.
- fellow wannabe's
- wannabe's who had failed selection a while back but invited back to re-apply, but chose to only do so a while later due to the market
- additonally opinions of some current students (yes I know they will have been briefed to say the right things, but there are ways and means to extract real honest feedback from these good and honest at heart people)
- The career and industry advice women were also very informative and came across as very genuine and honest. Clearly with a CTC bias, but I felt feedback was of value.
- I also have feedback from a friend currently in CTC Bournemouth, which adds validation (or not so) to info I was fed.
- Again, having family members flying within a Heathrow based long hall fleet, who have been through the CTC ATP ladders, it becomes a fairly easy process to filter through the PR, and the true message.

If you went, let me know what you thought of the day!

Please note this is not an invite for people such as 'TheBeak' or should I say 'TheBLEAK' or 'WWW' to repeat their same message, which has already been heard, researched & understood, yet continued and hammered into every mind of any decently researched and sound thinking young wannabe who frequents Pprune!!!!! why do a few individuals feel they hold the responsibility of advising the whole global fATPL wannabe community from making a mistake?!?! Get over yourselves.

TheBeak

I don't need your invite and you wouldn't get a say in the matter in what I wanted to say. At the very least I am consitent unlike some others who chop and change with the wind.

Pprune doesn't exist just for you, there are other people in the universe who do ask for advice. And here is something that might surprise you, not everyone that wants to start is 'young' and not everyone can speak to their 'family members flying within a Heathrow based long hall fleet, who have been through the CTC ATP ladders' - so you have more than one family member who went through ATP and are now flying from Heathrow long haul? Jolly good - sounds like generic, un-factual junk spewed for the sake of it. Remember, it'll have been a different time when they did it, if they did it. If they can really recommend you do your training now then they either don't like you or are sick of your questions and don't care.

Oh clearly an ex-Army Intel officer. What did you do, attach 20000 Volts to their nuts? If ever anyone has been too sure of themselves I think you'll find it might be you. You are almost certainly in for a nasty surprise. Tread carefully 'One9iner' or should I say 'doomed wannabe'.

I have said it a couple of times now, you'd be crazy to commit to CTC without seeing if they actually place some of their apparently huge hold (and building) pool over the next year. If they don't and you're in then it's an expensive mistake. If they do and you're not then you know that they are as good as they say they are and their selection is worthy of taking your money. If they can do it now then they CAN DO IT. If however you have the money and just want an integrated course then fill your boots, I am sure their training is as good as any and perhaps better.

Zippy Monster

So what exactly DID they say? What was their message with regards to the holding pool, loan/bond detail changes, marketing bumf, employment prospects, holding pool, flexi contracts etc?

Perhaps those of us that have been through the system and been spat out the other end, have experience in the airlines and a bit more of an idea how things are going than when you're inside the CTC 'bubble', as your mate is, might be able to help you unpick the carefully-chosen words of PR.

I hope you won't be in a position where you will have a >£60k loan to service, with no means of paying it back. Sadly, many will. You won't understand what it's like until you're actually there. It's important to make people realise just how much of a burden and commitment it is. Many don't realise and happily sign on the dotted line, riding on a wave of feel-good fuzziness from the FTOs' nice PR. I include myself in that.