iKaresz

Military would be cheaper of course, but what I am thinking of is Embry-Riddle. Or there is an other option: doing the PPL and ask an airline to train me. What do you know about this?

TheBeak

My advice is, do your school work and wait and see what things are like when you are a minimum of 18 years old. Don't even worry about things now, ALOT can and will change. Give the military strong consideration and keep on investigating all flight schools at your leisure. Good luck.

d41xcs

this is for thebeak...

what route did you go down? military or FTO? if you did apply to any FTO's what was the outcome? you have a lot of advice to give on this forum and I'm just interested in your background thats all...

Bambe

For The Beak:

if EZY or any airline partner doesn't keep you after completion of the line training, then you (re)enter the Cadets holding pool until a position is made available.
If you are then employed through the Flexi crew scheme for the next season, you'll be contracted by CTC and paid 210 Pounds a day with 17 paid days guaranteed per month.

However, if(by any chance) EZY hires you on a permanent contract then it will be under DEP T&Cs.

TheBeak

Bambe, the three operative words in your post are IF, IF, IF.

d41xcs I went down the FTO route. My advice is just that - to be taken or left at ones leisure.

A and C

As we all know airlines are in the business of selling seats, this some are having a lot of trouble doing at the moment so the chances of getting a job are not great.

However the airlines have found a seat that sells at a premium price, it is the one at the front on the right by the window, young hopefuls are flocking to pay for "line trainning" and so just when they have got to make friends with the aircraft they are shipped of to the "holding pool" and another batch of young hopefuls repeat the process.

If I was running an airline I would think it was the next best thing to a national lottery win..................... people paying to work for me!

If all you young hopefuls looked past the glossy brochures and slick marketing of the integrated providers and went modular you would kill this revenue stream for the airlines stone dead and save yourselves IRO £15-20,000 into the bargain.

All this talk of selection and producing the product that the airlines want is so much bull, yes they want the brightest people on the course because if you complete the course they get the most money........... or to put it bluntly failures are not as profitable.

It's just a case of follow the money really!

TheBeak

I couldn't agree more A and C.

golfcharlie232

The Beak, can you please tell me why you're spending so much time on this thread trying to tell a hundred times the same thing, even if that's true ?
What's the point? What's your goal? Why CTC?
Have you been rejected from the selection process or something?

It's been quite a long time since I read the major threads on here, all depicting a gloomy future for the airline industry.
I honestly am not one of those who believe that getting a job in those tough times is something easy, nor when the market is doing better. However, I do believe that starting training now is not such a silly idea.
What you don't take into account is the background of the guys in here. Of course you cannot, but as you also pointed out, that's lots of "IF" too ...

Who said they wanted a job right after the end of the training?
How do you know people don't have a good fall back or a second job or a way to build hours and wait ?

Lets face it, CTC does not guarrantee a job, right.
But why won't you admit you'd better be in the CTC holding pool than anywhere else at the moment?

Once again, as you said, 2 years time is a long long time.
How do you know the global economic situation will be the same or worse whilst nobody can even predict what will happen tomorrow?

CTC used to place 100% Cadets in the past. Well, yes .. the past is the past. If you pretend that they are not placing 100% cadets now, ok, then show us the figures ...
CTC are placing cadets now, yes they are. And in tough times like these, they are certainly doing better than any FTO.

Is it some kind of competition? You guys want to make the aviation industry look even worse than what it actually is, so that less people are starting training and the more jobs you keep for yourself?
No honestly, I'm just trying to understand.
Some of the issues you're pointing out are relevant, but some are really childish and pointless, or even wrong.

Your answer (like many others) is "Wait!".
I really feel sorry for those who started training in 2006/2007, because people told them to wait until the situation gets better, they did, and where are they now? Well, on the market in the middle of a crisis, because they waited ...
I mean, obviously some comments are good pieces of advice, don't trust everything you read especially when it looks too shiny, but "wait, wait and wait again" is certainly not "the" solution.

That may be a lot clever to start training when things are bad, and to be ready at the right time - although you might have to wait a bit -, rather than starting training when everything goes well, and be done with training when the crisis just starts ...

TheBeak

Questions like that show you haven't thought about your argument and are perhaps just looking for an argument. Why else would someone train to be a commercial pilot? Can anyone give an example of training to be a pilot and not wanting to fly as a pilot for a living?

I don't have to justify myself to you, if you don't like what I say, please feel free to ignore it. I have also said I have no problem with CTC at all and they are probably your best bet if you wish to train integrated HOWEVER there also a huge risk attached to their way, that is......complaceny and having your eggs in one basket.

If I was going integrated it would be between CTC and FTE. But I wouldn't go integrated right now.

Kerosine

A shortsighted inflammatory comment. Circumstances differ for everyone, there is only a small percentage of cadets who have taken the loans without understanding the implications if things go horribly wrong, a similar proportion for those who believe getting a job will be easy. Please stop treating those who chose this course as ignorant or misinformed. We know the risk.

You don't have to, no, however your numerous comments require justification if you are to not be perceived as a broken record.

TheBeak

No you are answering the question 'who said they EXPECTED to get a job at the start'. He or She asked the question 'who said they WANTED a job at the start'.

And no my 'numerous posts' which lead you and others to perceive me as a broken record do not require justification, they are consistent and received as intended by most. They are not done with bad intention and they are not extreme.

golfcharlie232

Sorry if it was not quite well expressed.
What I meant is :
Most of the pilots I know who trained either going integrated or modular had to wait a lot to get their very first job as a pilot, up to 7 or 8 years for some of them.
Some still don't have a job.
So when your argument is "at the moment, you're most likely to waste your money because there's no job right now", you're saying (correct me if I got that wrong) that they won't get a job right now, right?
Honestly, if I train with any FTO, and then I am to wait lets say 1 or 2 years, I'll be more than happy.
Your argument is a nonsense, all the guys training with CTC don't even have to wait half of that, they start flying an airliner, and after the flexicrew sheme they have around 700 hr, and can re-enter the holding pool. Go to the USA, and ask the guys there what they can get with only 300 hr ....

What you're looking for is a complete utopic FTO, that trains for less than others, that gives you a job guarantee, with a first job where you earn a lot, and that is able to get jobs even when there's no job ...

If you're trying to open the eyes of the guys here, try to understand how it works first, and then lets admit that the risks you are to take are the same everywhere, and at anytime.
Going modular means you're not facing any risk? Really? Well, that's still £50k, you still have to get through a huge dept if you don't have the money prior of training, and .... less chances of getting hired since you recieve less help from the FTO.
I'm not saying going modular is silly though.
Just pick up what suits you best ...

FlyBoyFryer

Just my two pence...

I completed my CPL/ME/IR via the modular route. Although it was my only option given age and financial circumstances, I've never regretted it and throughly enjoyed every aspect. During my hour-building, I got to fly myself around Vegas, the Grand Canyon and other great places like San Francisco. My only regret was paying for a MCC course with CAE which purported to be a Ryanair pre-selction course! However, that's a long story I won't bore you with...

More relevantly, I entered the CTC Wings ATP scheme last year February whilst nearing completion of my IR. The first couple stages of selection happened quickly but I was forced to wait until January '09 before I got to participate in their AQC/JOC. Having passed that, I'm now in the hold pool, patiently awaiting the aviation industry to sort itself out as a result of demanding times.

My points are thus -

1. My fATPL was achieved via the modular route so it's important to remember that CTC's Wings hold pool is not filled entirely with integrated trained pilots. We (i.e. modular) may be in the minority but we're still a sizeable number.
2. Previous comments about no ideal time for training are entirely correct. I remember starting my training at the start of 2007 and being told throughout (Bristol GS, hour building, even the start of my CPL) that it was the best possible time to train. How quickly things change!
3. CTC, whilst nowhere near perfect (I have my own personal queries about some of their communications and policies), are still one of the best providers/options for low hour pilots like myself. Yes, they are a private company which, like any other, has to be commercially successful and profitable. It suffers ups and downs like any other... but they are reputable, established and partnered with very good airlines. Personally, I'm happy to be working with them.
4. Correct me if I'm wrong but our industry is still a growth industry, no? Pilot recruitment may have slowed down but overall, there's still a natural cycle of pilot retirements (age, loss of medical etc.) as well as new aircraft being bought which means there has to be new jobs, albeit in time and in limited quantities? Whilst the business may have become more cutthroat, I still believe it's possible to succeed given hard work, a diligent approach and making careful decisions!

As mentioned before in this thread, one simply has to work with what one has available... for me, that amounts to doing IT contract work, trying not to witter on about aircraft endlessly and gazing wistfully at any aircraft on approach or takeoff from Edinburgh airport. At least I get to keep my hand in, my ratings valid and my chin up.

My parting thought - a bit like the PPRUNE forum, CTC's Wings programme is an invaluable tool to both accomplished and aspiring pilots. It relies on positivity, patience and understanding exhibited by it's contributors. Let's not bash an organisation which has been instrumental in helping a very large number of pilots make their dream come true.

All the best,

FF
P.S. I've always been a glass "half-full" type of person - maybe it's a fault of mine?!

A and C

What did it cost you to get into the CTC hold pool & what have you got in return?

Kerosine

Have a word with the Aer Lingus guys.

Or the 60 (or 80?) soon to be newly type-rated and line trained Easyjet crew.
(Before you launch into the intricacies of flexicrew, shall we compare with the newly qualified modular, mostly unemployed, pilots being produced across the world right now, who might I add are also in debt? I suspect this is the lesser of two evils)

TheBeak

Ok, CTC HAVE unquestionably been the best in their field, they have a superb record. This is a changing world and what worked then WILL NOT work now, let's see the way things go. I am aware FlexiCrew is their short term answer to this but I do not think it is a good long term fix for those involved. A career is a marathon not a sprint. We shall see. You'd do well to remember -pride comes before a fall.

FlyBoyFryer

In reply to A&C:
Initial selection process fee: £200 odd.
AQC cost £6.5K
Well worth the cost given I'd paid over £5K to CAE for their MCC in the past which was a (by far) inferior course and consisted of being shouted at by instructors followed up by being messed about for the Ryanair interview and which entailed a sim-check that was never meant to happen! CAE, if anyone, personify the "take your cash and run" attitude!

In reply to Kerosine:
You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. Lesser of two evils indeed! Should I avoid paying CTC and try approach airline companies indepenantly, run the risk of passing an interview, forking out for a TR and then possibly getting the heave ho a mere month later (which has happened to people I know that did their training at the same time as me)?

How about RyanAir where you have to pay for an overly expensive TR, get paid cadet rates for 6months... and then told to wait for a call? This may be unsubstantiated... but can I afford to run the risk??

CTC's sponsored TR may not be "free" in many ways (between the low pay that's offered for the first six months and the cost of the AQC et al.) but critically, it does mean:

1. I don't need to find £25K-£30 for a TR. Cash is King as they say!
2. CTC have a vested interest in seeing me pass which RyanAir and other independant trainers may not (... 20 hours in the TR course... "Sorry old chap, you're just not cutting the mustard!" Off you go with neither a partial refund nor anything to show for your efforts!)
3. As (pray God not IF!) and when the market picks up, I'm in a decent positions with a reputable company who's business interests centre on placing pilots - to that end, someone is working on my behalf trying to find me a job.
4. I'm in a hold pool but can still explore other opportunities anyway. Surely you agree that's increasing my odds?

As I said, maybe I'm a fool for trusting CTC... but I'm of the belief that they are, quite frankly, my best bet and a decent lot!

Wee Weasley Welshman

Train slow, train cheap, train modular.


CTC are quick and pricey.


I spent years pointing people CTC's way. But it doesn't make any sense at all in the current and future situation.


When it does I'll go back to recommending and commending the CTC route.


WWW

TheBeak

According to RTJones who is from CTC the current pool of Wings trainees is 60 and that is growing month by month at a rate of 12-14.

There wont be placements until the beginning of next year so it still has a long way to grow. Don't you get placed BEHIND those guys?


Sounds like a bum deal to me for £6700. Hold on to the side because I fear you maybe in that pool for quite a while. Their history is based upon one of the finest pilot employment times in history. Now is one of the worst, be careful of the line you extrapolate. Of course if you have the money going spare then it will do no harm to your chances.

A and C

Thank you for your honesty, I do find it rather distubing that you are £6.7k to the worst and all you have to show for it is a swim in a very deep and crowded pool.

I am also distubed to find myself agreeing with WWW!