burty83

Despite the world's current climate, BA as far as I know were still recruiting SSPs for the Airbus. There are a few more CTC students in the company now which is good to see as it was always generally Oxford SSPs who went through the system with BA. However, more CTC students are being put forward now. You do start on an SSP scale but this rapidly increases and continues to increase year on year. Once you start flying you can expect an extra £1200 a month allowances. I'd say it's simply the first 3-4 months you really have to plan carefully for when it comes to money. After 4-5 years the world is your oyster and you will probably have the option to bid to move onto the 747, 777 or A380.

With regards to the part time work idea I think as the holder of a student visa you're allowed to work 15 hours a week. Personally I think it's pretty foolish to comprimise the quality of your education in NZ for the sakes of a bit more spending money in NZ. Part time work in NZ comes in at around £4 an hour as that's the minimum wage out there. I'd say take the extra dough from HSBC and just accept you'll be paying a few extra pounds a month once you start paying back your loan.

burty83

If you wanted to reduce the £10,000!!! (I couldn't find a Harrods food hall in NZ myself) throughout the course you can always just find the person most willing to pick you up from town and then tell you off when you misbehave in the back of the minibus. Turn it up!!!!

bjkeates

Well that willing person most probably thought that since they had come out to pick you up at silly hours of the evening out of the goodness of their heart, then they might as well attempt to get you home in one piece...

FeetUpHeadDown

In reply to the person who posted the specimen Training Schedule, I believe it is necessary to advise would-be cadets of some of the harsh realities of the CTC Schedule.

Not a single Integrated CP has met the training schedule that has been recently posted here. There are multiple reasons for this as follows:

1) Katana failures and groundings reduced the single-engine fleet and caused flying backlogs that affected a lot of CPs.
2) Alpha production was very slow to deliver all 11/12 aircraft, and they went bust around April without delivering the whole lot. Cessnas were rented to cover this and there was a reasonable sized single engine fleet with alpha and c-172s.
3) The requirements of the Integrated course have presented a number of constraints and bottlenecks that have only been dealt with when they hit e.g. scheduling conflicts between groundschool attendance and flying.
4) Twinstar reliability and the liquidation of Thielert resulted in a big reduction of Twinstars and the roping in of the Seminole for VFR Twin training to CPL for some cadets, including earlier modular guys who returned to NZ for a third time to do CPL on the Sems.
5) Bottle-necking on the Twins for integrated courses resulting from insufficient numbers of JAA approved VFR/IR instructors and the relatively long lead times involved in getting instructors through JAA standards to meet JAA Integrated training requirements, along with Tech and weather issues.
6) The wettest winter on recent record has hit everyone and reduced the number of flying days by a huge amount.
7) The magical black box of scheduling/priority that we all know and love.

There are other factors/reasons as well, but to be clear at worst there are people on the integrated scheme who have been here for 18 months. Others are averaging about 15-16 months. This is compared to the 11 - 12 months we were advised it would take to complete NZ. Another guy will have been here for more than 18 months.

Also, the 18-monthers have not completed the NZ syllabus and will have to complete those flights in the UK i.e. despite being here for 50% longer they still haven't finished the 12 month syllabus.

This is also the likely case for CP51 and perhaps CP52.

Phase 1 exam dates are pretty much fixed and everyone goes to Bristol pretty much as planned due to flying progress being irrelevant to those dates.

Phase 2 Bristol dates have been moved around a lot for various courses because of the slow progress made by many CPs. Some people are doing all of Bournemouth then their exams at the end. Others are leaving NZ, travelling home only to have to do Bristol 36 hours after arriving in the UK.

I don't think any integrated cadet has gone through the system on dates, except two guys who have managed to get forward-coursed.

People have been allowed to choose modular or integrated, and at least one course has been made to go modular.

In hindsight, going modular at CTC is probably the best option because you get through the flying quicker, you have access to more instructors, and you seem to spend the least amount of time in NZ. Plus CTC have been doing modular longer than integrated and you don't need to attend groundschool. Be clear too that going modular makes zero difference to your chances of airline placement with CTC. The only reason they went to Integrated was to satisfy BA, but even they have now officially said that they will (, have and are) taking modular cadets. Apparently one day they will only accept integrated but not yet. Everyone knows that a CTC modular course is delivered as though it were integrated. When cadets arrive out here they don't know enough about the system and people end up believing that integrated is "best". It's not it's just got different challenges to delivery. At least with modular you get a PPL, you can take your mates flying on your solos, and you could in theory rent the Twinstar on your own. Integrated people can't do anything except the syllabus flights. Integrated guys don't get any licenses until right at the end once your exams and IR test is done. Modular guys can enjoy PPL privileges in NZ and do wet hires of Alphas and Cessnas from Waikato aeroclub for $180ish per air hour. It's therefore perfectly possible to book some time off, hire a plane between four of you then sod off to the south island and it really won't cost you that much.

Be smart and expect to be here for 18 months and budget accordingly. You won't therefore run out of cash and be disappointed when your dates slide back. Do the maths and realise that you will spend a significant amount of time on the ground here. The contract and the visa expressly prevent you from working out here, and possibly for the entire duration of the course. Don't be afraid to take a bit of time off and make sure you enjoy NZ. There are people here who will tell you you shouldn't take time off and that flying must come first etc etc etc. These people are wrong. Worklife balance applies everywhere and if you're going to be sat on your arse for a week, you might as well get to enjoy it rather than spending it on the Pilot Farm all the time.

The quality of the training is good. Instructors here are good. CTC cadets have as good a chance as anyone, according to what we hear, of getting a jet job and that's what we're all paying for. It's the bits in between the flying that are the most challenging in some respects.

Kerosine

One of the most interesting and informative posts I have read on this thread, thanks for taking the time to write it up.

Caracul

Nice post..

Monkeyboy748

can you still make a choice? i was under the impression that it was all integrated now?

PAJ

FUHD, pretty on the mark there I'd say. I'm not sure about the exact number of integrated cadets forward coursed, but I think it is about 6 over the first few integrated courses, and that has managed to bring the dates almost back in line with the stated schedule, but this is unique to those cadets.

As an integrated cadet, I thought I would just slightly balance the modular/integrated argument a little. All that you say about modular is correct, and there are benefits for both sides of training. On the modular course, it is my personal opinion that captaincy skills are better developed as you get more PIC time to consolidate and have to 'fend for yourself' in terms of decision-making/airmanship. On the integrated course, my personal opinion is that these skills are slightly neglected as the learning curve is steep. However, this I would say is not essential for where cadets will end up in a multi pilot environment. The integrated course gives you a significant amount of groundschool which with it brings scheduling issues, but you get much more exposure to the ATPL course material making the brush up at BGS a little easier. ATPL results for each integrated CP are up on the modular courses by a few percent, sitting in the low 90's I belive at present. The big advantage that comes with the integrated course is that you get significantly more multi time, much of this being IFR en-route stuff. On return to Bournemouth, the first integrated courses have found the adjustment to flying IFR in the UK easier, and as currency is generally a little better, the whole UK phase is a little less painful. You get less total hours on the integrated course, but you have spent much more time being immersed in the multi IFR environment, where you will be for the rest of your professional career. I personally believe the integrated course is excellent, but I have not been subject to the same de-moralising delays some of the later courses have had to endure. Just my 2p worth but something to think about.

Robbo0885

Assuming you have a current JAR PPL when you join CTC, and you choose CTC's Integrated option, couldn't you just convert your PPL to a NZ PPL? Allowing the benefits of your own NZ PPL whilst still doing CTC's integrated route? That way being able to hire for extra time if you want on your own, or to fly to hire for a trip to the South Island etc?

When a "significant saving" is made on CTC modular course, what kind of figures are we talking? (Bearing in mind the "significant" loan for the foundation course anyway! lol)

mrfilbert

Hi all,

I've been a long-time lurker on these forums and like so many others before me I'd like to say thanks a lot for the informative posts and constructive debates that have helped inform my decision to apply to CTC, which I did yesterday.

At the risk of interrupting the modular/integrated discussion (which is fascinating - please keep at it, as it's something I know nothing about!) I do have one question which I don't think has yet been answered, and I was hoping one of you may be able to answer it for me. Actually, there are several questions in there, but on the same broad topic area!

Assuming you're not lucky enough to go straight into line training and (hopefully) employment with one of the partner airlines, and you enter the hold pool, how long does it take before your hours lapse and you need to cough up for more solo flying and/or training? Obviously in the current climate it seems recruitment is slowing down considerably and I'm really worried about saddling myself with £100,000 of debt with no flying job at the end of it AND gradually becoming less and less employable into the bargain AND having to pay to fly in some form or other to maintain currency. Also, is there a point at which CTC dump you out of the hold pool, and leave you to fend for yourself?

Am I crazy to even be considering investing in flying training at present? Is not being able to find a job a very real worry to those of you out in NZ at the moment, or are you of the opinion that 'it'll happen in the end'?

Thanks in advance!

Kerosine

Looking at the current situation, it looks grim. Look 2 years into the future and depending on how optimistic you are you may feel it will be much improved.

It's a risky investment, however personally, I'm counting on the aviation industry finding it's feet again in the next 18 months, and will at least be recruiting. Maybe oil prices stabilising with no iminent fear of runaway increases will help; a small mercy.

PAJ

To actually answer your question mrfilbert, basically at the end of the course, you end up with a Multi engine CPL/IR with ATPL theory. The ATPL theory to my knowledge does not actually expire once you have recieved a licence based upon this theory so that is no worry. In terms of the flying however, there are some legislative requirements to meet. The validity of the CPL is 5 years (I think!) so that shouldn't be a problem. However, the Multi Engine Class rating is only valid for a year, and the same applies for the Instrument Rating. Obviously the hope is that you are on a type rating course within a year of licence issue (everything gets renewed on the type rating so that it falls into line with the airline's training schedule) but if this doesn't happen, then you would have to think about re-validating ratings. The IR is the big one as you need the multi IR for the airlines, whereas the multi class rating (basically relating to a Multi Engine Piston aircraft like the DA42, a Seneca etc.) is not so important as you will be getting a type rating for a multi pilot aircraft which will have some form of turbine powerplant, requiring a different rating. If you intend to keep flying multi piston aircraft outside of the airlines, then obviously you will need to revalidate the rating and this must be done in a suitable multi piston aircraft. The IR on the other hand manages to confuse things still further! As I mentioned, it would be fairly important to keep the IR valid. There is a clause in JAR-FCL that allows a renewal to take place in a certified FNPT II (simulator) so long as the following renewal (effectively year 3 of your IR) is done in an aircraft. FNPT II's are obviously a lot cheaper to hire than aircraft and remove the landing/ instrument approach fees so this may well be a good option if it were to come to it.

I am fairly confident with the details of the above, but flight crew licencing is renowned for being a little ambiguous at the best of times! I suggest that if you want the actual details from the approved source, you have a look in the CAA LASORS as this is where everything is stipulated.

Now one thing I have neglected to consider is general flying currency. I am not sure what partner airlines thoughts are on not flying for months before they take you on, but it would definietly not hurt to fly whilst waiting. Also bear in mind that renewals require your handling and precision to be the same as that of your initial Intrument Rating test, and I think it would be highly unlikely that you would be able to meet that standard having done nothing in the previous 12 months, so you would have to factor in some recurrent training. I am not sure where CTC would stand in terms of cadet currency over a prolonged period - my thoughts are that the contract they have with you is to get you up to licence standard so therefore they would not keep you current. However, CTC are reasonable and practical and I am sure if they could help, they would.

99jolegg

Still a bit of a murky puddle at the moment. I spoke to somebody at the bank today who conducts the initial interview for the loan, and they said it was stopping permanently at the end of September...apparently not purely due to the credit crunch but she wouldn't mention any more. Take this info with caution, because decisions are made above their heads so they could possibly have it wrong...

Someone applying now might shed some more light on to it, because the likelyhood of applying today, having stage 2/3 and stage 4 and getting an interview at HSBC before end of Sept is slim. Surely they must brief people at the intro meeting at stage 2 as to what is happening with finance.

At what stage do you get more info on modular / integrated route? The 'what happens next' pack (as far as I can see) only has a modular and integrated colour coded timetable and nothing else on the topic.

Kerosine

jolegg
I have received an email from Daphne stating that the modular course is still being run and that you can arrange which you want to follow when you arrive in NZ. The person to contact when in NZ is the Head of Training, name can be provided on PM (not keen on posting names).

burty83

Do you still do more hours (200)on the modular course compared to the integrated (150)? As a product of the modular course I don't have much experience with the Integrated course. What I do know though, is that flying around NZ with a NZ PPL visiting as many airfields (patches of grass and gravel) as possible within the rules was the best time I've ever had when it comes to flying. Taking your mates to critique / give random failures to you also adds to the experience.

CTC NZ are getting more and more instructors qualified to instruct integrated students so the any delays between the 2 courses should start to level off.

Kerosine

If there are delays in the course which result in us being there for, say, 15/16 months, are we liable for any additional costs?

PAJ

No direct additional costs as such, but you will obviously have to cover the indirect costs such as living and fuel for the vehicles over that extended period. I am not entirely sure whether the cadets is responsible for the extra insurance cover, as I seem to remember getting an email from PJ Insurance a few months ago saying that my cover period had been extended and I didn't pay them any extra so maybe CTC covered that. You will also have to bear in mind the additional interest on your respective loans over that period. CTC have just published a document that introduces a new compensation scheme for delays during training but there seem to be a large number of clauses in there - either way CTC are thinking about it.

99jolegg

The insurance periods have been amended on CTC's request, which accounts for the higher cost if you have recently applied for it...

Standard periods (I believe) are 28 months for Term Life Assurance, 24 months for Bond Insurance (or until TR is achieved) and 18 months for the personal possessions / travel insurance. Kerosene mentioned the cost...around £1300 I believe.

Before they were amended, cadets were having to update / renew insurance whilst still abroad.

Kerosine

I'm not going with PJ, its extortionate. The final straw was putting premiums up by £200 in a month or so.
I'm shopping around seein as I have time. Found a policy today, almost identical, for medical (inc flying) and personal possessions. PJ say £720 for these 2 policies, Travel Direct quote £270 per 12 months (~£350 assuming 18 months at most). The only major difference is possessions are only covered for 1.5k rather than 3k.

Still looking into it but just goes to show how much of a premium PJ are adding on for the convenience of this 'tailored' pack...

I'll post details when I have some solid info.

mrfilbert

A belated thanks to Paj & Kerosine - very useful information indeed.