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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 21st Apr 2007, 12:08
  #501 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 59

Try reading the ctc website and the rest of this thread You do not start paying back the loan until you are employed and the airline is making bond payments to you. If you cannot be bothered to do some research (into the finance if nothing else!), or cannot understand how the bond system works, then I have to wonder why you are even applying
ppl_student is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2007, 13:10
  #502 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mid Wales
Posts: 26
Stage 2 on 30th april

Hi People,

Just a quick message to see if any else is doing stage 2 on the 30th April?

Its my second attempt at the pilapts, so wish me luck..

hope to hear from someone.....

leigh_logan is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2007, 10:29
  #503 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wherever I'm told
Posts: 46
Try here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=252747
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Old 27th Apr 2007, 12:56
  #504 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Passing FL100
Posts: 60
Good day to you Ugly ducking,

I did my Phase 4 yesterday and Im pleased to say have passed! Am off to NZ on 4th July on CP51. Anyone else on that course?

With regard to your questions, u do Phase 2 in Bournemouth and then if successful you answer the 4 questions before you attend phase 3. It used to be the case that u did them before stage 2 as part of the initial application but that's no longer the case. You also no longer fax them back, just email them which is easier.

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Old 30th Apr 2007, 15:00
  #505 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: birmingham
Age: 33
Posts: 1
hey lee, was on the phase 2 with you, how did it go, i managed to get it second time round got my phase 3 on the 13th june
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Old 30th Apr 2007, 20:52
  #506 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hamilton NZ
Age: 42
Posts: 70
Thumbs up Stage 2 Reassessment

FAO female wanabee

I would definately urge you to reapply in 6 months.

I didn't pass Stage 2 in October and received an email telling me I could reapply in 6 months. CTC got in touch with me before I could get in touch with them asking me to reapply. I did and resat Stage 2 this morning and passed.

Believe it or not, I found that using Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002 (£4.99 on fleabay) the easiest way to practise concentrating on many things at once and learning to use the joystick accurately. Might not work for everyone but it worked for me.

Chuffed to bits and I'm hopingto do stage 3 on 4th July (baby on the way in between now and then hence the wait.....)

Last edited by RS999; 30th Apr 2007 at 20:53. Reason: Missed out FAO
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Old 30th Apr 2007, 20:53
  #507 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Doha, Qatar
Age: 31
Posts: 90
I'm gaining my A Levels this year, and am planning to apply to the CTC scheme on results day (15th August).

I was wondering if there's anyone else planning to do the same?
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Old 1st May 2007, 10:55
  #508 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mid Wales
Posts: 26
Well done mate!

same here mate, 2nd time luckly. They contacted me via phone saying that they hope to see me on the 15th May- in two weeks time. better get a move on and prep.

Do you know of any other websites to go on, apart from ctc's, and PPRuNe?

once again well done

Regards Lee
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Old 1st May 2007, 11:14
  #509 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Passing FL100
Posts: 60
Hi Lee,

Website wise, I would say pay the £50 for the cockpitweb program and then practice as much as you like! It is very good for the deviation tests in particular but not for the flying through boxes as it doesnt work.

socloss is offline  
Old 1st May 2007, 11:54
  #510 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mid Wales
Posts: 26
stage 3

Sorry, i didnt say, i'm doing stage 3 now, which i'm lead to believe is two group activities and an interview, correct me if i'm wrong.

what sort of things are the group activities are they verbal or physicial?
what is the duration of the interview and is it a panel of people which conduct it?

any good tips that will help are welcome.

i am currently reading the ctc wings home site and then move onto PPRuNe.

Also can someone tell me, i've seen CP42, CP50, CP51 etc........ what does this mean, is it the course number, i.e. CP42 is the 42th cadet pilot group training.

regards Lee
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:37
  #511 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Break down of each page


For those after a description of each stage, I found the post below took the edge right off the nerves...at least you know what to expect! cheers for that Streety!


CP41,42 etc is exactly what you suspected. Each intake of new cadets(monthly at the minute) has a CP number.
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:56
  #512 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mid Wales
Posts: 26


i've been looking at ctc'c website, i know there is a bond of £60k and
12k nzd = about £4.5k for the basic training, also living expenses which is about £?, i'll estimate £12k, giving at total of about £76.5k . Is this right?????

How are the flights paid for to NZ and Back, is this more money again? Do we have to pay for reading material, uniform etc....

i know that a high street bank fund the £60k via a unsecured loan, but what about the remaining £XX and other hiden charges!!

can someone help???????

Cheers Lee

Last edited by leigh_logan; 1st May 2007 at 13:12.
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Old 1st May 2007, 14:50
  #513 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 57
Re: Money

Here's my feedback from just having completed the dealings with the bank, and now looking at insurance.

Oddly, money is the topic no one seems to talk about when it comes to CTC. Why, I don't know. For sure, none of this is top secret, but you don't find out the detail until you're through selection, so I see no reason to not share this info here. It may affect an applicantís decision or perhaps spur people into seeking alternate sources of funding/insurance or whatever. However, every CTC person I've been in touch with has taken advantage of the financing from HSBC, and I struggle to think where one might stumble across other unsecured £60K+ loans with a 2 year deferral period unless one is lucky enough to have something silver jammed up one's arse.

There are a few elements to the finance:

1) £60k Loan
2) Living Expenses
3) Foundation Course Fees
4) Accounts

5) Arrangement Fees
6) Liability
6) Insurance
7) Credit Score

60K Loan
HSBC will provide a £60k Professional Studies loan to you at a rate of about 2.75% above (their) base rate, so the interest rate is currently ~8.5%. This is a variable rate, so in the current climate this is likely (IMO) to rise. Sure, rate rises are the saver's friend but they'll light a fire under my arse from this point forward.

The £60k is drawn down on a monthly schedule, passing from the bank direct to CTC. You don't get your mitts on that money, so forget sticking it in some investment vehicle to offset the interest. Interest is accrued on the money from draw down date, so you are not accruing interest on the full amount from day 1. CTC/HSBC give you a monthly draw down schedule so you know when the payments go out.

The repayment term of the loan is 7 years. That period commences when you start fulltime with an airline i.e. deferred for two years. You must contact HSBC to inform them of your employment situation then you start repaying. At today's rates, repayments would be 84 payments of £1030 per month, giving a grand total of ~£84,000. Taking the loan now, with 2 years of deferred repayments, and the money being drawn down directly to CTC in monthly instalments (Deposit £5400 then £4200/month thereafter), results in 7 years of repayments at £1030, assuming a constant rate of interest.

Overpayment is possible. There appears to be a tricky way that they handle repayments, bulking them up and applying them quarterly while they calculate interest daily. If I understood that correctly, this means no payments in a given quarter take effect until, say, the end of the quarter. This means you pay more interest on the loan in that quarter than you would have if your payments were credited to the loan the day you made them. I could be wrong, but the HSBC staff member gave me a very muddy explanation of this. I am seeking clarification on it.

Living Expenses
In addition, you can borrow a further £10k living expenses, and $12,000NZD for the foundation course (which has just gone up to $13,000NZD), both of which are subject to the same rate of interest. Borrowing £10k over 7 years at that rate will cost you ~£4.5k in interest. The living expenses can be paid to you on a regular basis e.g. £400 per month, or on demand. If you never demand, you never pay back. The rates of interest and the repayment period are the same as the £60k.

Foundation Course Fees
I assume the foundation loan is the same as the main loan, but check with HSBC.


You must set up two accounts with HSBC: the loan account and a current account. This is a graduate account product that is either free, but charges you for foreign transactions, or £9.99 a month with no such charges. I have yet to see the T&C's for operation of the current account in relation to your total liability to HSBC so whether you must use this account, and what constitutes "use" is unclear at this time. HSBC's application process also provides a Maestro card and a Mastercard with a small limit ~£500.

Arrangement Fees
There are £100 arrangement fees for both the living expenses and the main loan. I assume one would apply to the foundation course fees too, not sure.

All the monies are your liability, no one else's, except within the first £30k that CTC will accept liability for should you not be up to scratch. Apparently this is £30k of expended training although how on earth that's calculated is beyond me and whether any of the foundation counts towards it isn't clear either (considering we're paying for that stage ourselves, I don't see why it should). I have yet to receive my training agreement and so have not seen any contractual agreement relating to CTC's willingness to take liability for the first £30k.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you look at EZY's pay scales, CTC cadets are paid exactly £12k lower than direct entry FO's. This means that the airline is not really paying off your loan. You are. Probably a benefit of doing it this way is that you don't pay tax on the £1000 repayment that comes from EZY, but I am not sure. Understand that I am not bitching about this arrangement, just highlighting something coincidental. At the end of the day, I'm not knocking the setup, I'm grateful for the opportunity!

You will then also need to insure yourself against certain risks to ensure that the monies are covered in the event of death, loss of medical etc. The broker that CTC put us in touch with gave multiple policies that together total about £1200 for people up to the age of 29. This also includes personal accident, personal possessions while in NZ etc. However, they have not sent the full policy wording so it's difficult to understand exactly what you're being offered and, more importantly, all the exclusions to the cover. I am waiting to be sent fulll wording before I make a decision. Alternatives are available from other sources, including BALPA, so get in touch with them and shop around is my advice. You cannot borrow funds from HSBC to cover insurance expenses, for obvious reasons.

The bank financing is locally administered by HSBC Hythe, down the road from CTC Dibden Manor. You must attend Hythe branch to go through the finances. HSBC didn't attempt to offer insurance products, although I did ask. I suspect that they don't want to underwrite their own risk (if they really underwrite the risks entirely themselves), but that's speculation on my part, and/or arenít so competitive for our risks and/or donít cover our risks.

If you can find a better financing option than the above, please share it as I'm sure it's of great interest to many of the readers of this thread.

Credit Score
Critical information, for those that are blissfully unaware, is CREDIT SCORING! You should and must know what your credit reference files are like. If you have any defaults, dodgy associations or whatever on your file, you are much less likely to be granted the finance from HSBC. If you know nothing about credit scoring, get genned up. Then get copies of your credit reports from Experian and Equifax, and fix any problems or errors that may exist before you go to the bank. Wiser still, have it sorted before you get too far through selection, as it is just a pain in the neck to have it interfere with your start date.

Something else - not sure whether it's possible to offset any of one's liabilities for tax purposes. Sounds like a job for SuperAccountant!

Last edited by MajorYaw; 1st May 2007 at 15:02.
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Old 1st May 2007, 14:52
  #514 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With my head in a sandbox!
Posts: 137
You're pretty much on the money (no pun intended) with the costs - perhaps slightly over compensating for living costs. I'm budgeting between 8-10k for food, petrol and all that jazz (remember you have to cover license issue, insurance and medical renewal yourself so you must account for this).
HSBC give you 60k for the bond and wil loan you up to another 15k for the foundation course (now 13k NZ$) and 5k towards living costs per year. All this is unsecured so you do not need property to secure it on. Uniform, flight gear, reference material flights, accomodation all paid for you. Hope that helps

Just read MajorYaws thread - spot on! As for the tax breaks, as I understand it, (and dependent on the sponsoring airline I believe) you will likely just get one payment a month which already takes into accound the £1030 repayment they are giving you per month, and this is tax exempt - you therefore get a tax refund on the net amount in light of this in every pay check - if I am wrong, do correct me but this is how I understand things.
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Old 1st May 2007, 15:05
  #515 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 57
What I mean about tax offset is not just about the payment from the airline. I am wondering whether there's a legit way to reduce your overall tax liability in light of the total debt undertaken. I am curious enough to talk to an accountant about it, so watch this space, but I suspect it may be complex and involve setting oneself up as a business, but I am just shooting from the hip here.

If any smart cookies out there know about this and can provide input, please feel free.
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Old 1st May 2007, 17:24
  #516 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Deepest Europe...
Age: 35
Posts: 224
Excellent and concise post by MajorYaw. There's just one thing I'd correct:

You must attend Hythe branch to go through the finances.

When I sorted out my finance for the course, I dealt with most of it on the phone and the forms were forwarded to my local HSBC branch for signing. I'm fairly sure they can still do this - just ask when you speak to them on the phone.

Don't, however, go to your local branch and try and sort out the Professional Studies Loan through them - they won't have heard about the arrangement and will more than likely laugh in your face when you ask for £60k unsecured (pretty much double the normal unsecured limit.)
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Old 1st May 2007, 17:53
  #517 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 49
MajorYaw - pretty much spot on. Only two things to add - I've just taken out the insurance with PJIS (CTC's recommended supplier) at a cost of about £965 - not sure where £1200 comes from? Also, re credit scoring etc, be well aware that £60k + of unsecured debt is not going to make you attractive to other lenders in the medium term.
MikeAlphaTangoTango is offline  
Old 1st May 2007, 18:36
  #518 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 57
HSBC made me drive down from up north to spend 90 mins in the branch. They couldn't print anything out so sent the final papers to a local branch near me. Not the most exciting day I ever had. They justified me having to make the trip by... err, I can't remember. I felt there was some attempt to size me up in 5 questions about my desire to be a pilot, and my brackground to date. Lucky I didn't tell them about those 5 months at the middle eastern Butlins... Just kidding. Seriously, the trip to the bank was a waste of time to me, I didn't even sign anything. If you can do it remotely, do.

My mistake about the total insurance sum. Lucky I didn't do that in Stage 4:

"What's 12x21?"
"About £1200?"
"Get out"

Here's PJIS's numbers:

Term Life Assurance per annum £110.98
Training Bond (Loss of Medical Status) until type rating is achieved or a
maximum of 24 months £367.50
New Zealand - Personal Accident, Medical Expenses and Repatriation £377.89
New Zealand - Personal Possessions and Money to £3000
£110.00 (+ £30.00 to add Personal Liability)
Personal Possessions and Money to £4000
£140.00 (+ £30.00 to add Personal Liability)

I've now seen most of the T&C's behind the policies, and I've reservations about either the Training Bond Cover or the Term Life Assurance. In what I read, the amount payable was only £50K for some scenarios.

Be aware that personal accident and life cover have exclusions from winter sports and "extreme" things. Time to get skydiving cover from somewhere else

MATT - what does your documentation say re your level of cover on these two?

BALPA can provide, through BFS, financial services and insurance including training fees for loss of medical. It looked like a better policy to me, and can convert once you've passed training. The amount of info BALPA sent me on this was far more in depth and helpful than PJIS, IMO.

Was reading a tax thread elsewhere on PPRuNe. Looks like that may be a big no go for CTC Cadets, if not all wannabe pilots.

On the mortgage front, the £60k is gonna have a big impact on you getting one from most major lenders. HSBC say they can still help out as they know the crack, so welcome to being a bitch to the world's local bank for oooohhhh, seven years. Oh well, all my sector pay's going into the repayment black hole when it comes, and I'll be living in a tent on the apron!
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Old 1st May 2007, 18:45
  #519 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 57
Do any experienced CTC-ers know how this £30k liability on CTC's side actually works? I asked the question and got a vague answer back from them.
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Old 2nd May 2007, 07:00
  #520 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 49

Re CTC's £30k liability, the exact scope is given in the contract you'll receive. When I asked CTC the question of how many people fail to make it through training I was told it's of the order of 1 per year.

I had a brief look at BALPA's website about their insurances, but couldn't dredge up very much. Kinda wishing I'd looked harder if what you say is true. On the flip side, PJIS seem to work hand in hand with CTC like HSBC do, so in that sense it's one more hassle removed as they all know the system and communicate with each other regularly. For the winter sports bit, I was told a one off £50 premium covers it.
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