The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Hi Sorry if Im asking stupid questions, My son has worked very hard at his A levels and has dreamed of being a pilot since he was 4. I understand that thousands of others do too. I said I would only be willing to secure his loan against my house only if he got accepted on a airline course . i.e easyjet or BA or similar. One post has scared me, if he didnt get a good score on one module then CTC could decide to not refer him to the airline.
He would then have paid close to £100000 and would have no job at the end. We are not a rich family and this would bankrupt us, I want to help my son, but can anyone tell me if this is true.
Many thanks
He would then have paid close to £100000 and would have no job at the end. We are not a rich family and this would bankrupt us, I want to help my son, but can anyone tell me if this is true.
Many thanks
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holty40,
The simple answer is yes. The training organisation can certainly not refer him to a partner airline if they felt his level of attainment fell below an acceptable standard. In fact it would be their duty not to do so. The airline is expecting the candidates to have reached a level of attainment that prepares them for what is going to be a very steep learning curve from that point forward, and it is not going to be in anybody's interest to put forward weak trainees.
The courses are structured such that each module or section is subject to assessment throughout and at the conclusion of that section. It is not implausible (although it rarely happens) that a students training can be terminated if they fail to maintain a minimum standard. There are insurance polices that may help mitigate some of the costs incurred up to that point, however they do not (as I understand it) cover any and all reasons for failure. However they do provide some assurance. There are also options whereby a student can pay for additional training if remedial action is required that falls outside the scope of what is considered "normal." The wings cadet (airline) courses are selective, and if a candidate consistently fails to meet the standards required, they may be offered the option of switching to a regular integrated course which would likely involve not only additional cost, but also remove the inclusive AQC (Airline qualification course) which would then become an additional cost for the candidate. It would also shift a significant element of risk onto the candidate as graduates from the secondary programme are only put forward when they have demonstrated the same level of achievement as the wings cadets.
Having said that, most of the selected wings cadets (for the airline programmes) do go on to graduate successfully although even that provides no guarantee that the airline partners would necessarily have any requirement for cadets at the point of graduation. In recent years it hasn't been at all unusual for successful graduates to have to wait (in holding pools) for sometimes significant lengths of time in order to be placed with a partner. It is also true that people often do find hurdles in their training whereby they fail (usually only at the first attempt) one aspect of the course or other. As is the case in any other form of training or education, this is often part and parcel of the learning process. It is up to the airline what requirements they set in this regard, but it is unusual for a short term area of weakness that is subsequently redressed to present any problems beyond that point. Unless the failure was chronic and persistent, it would be very unlikely to impact on the graduates transition to advanced flight training (the airline part.)
Again, to highlight the big warning here....There are no guarantees! The airline industry is notoriously volatile! There simply are no guarantees, and it would be extremely unwise to plan or assume on a seamless transition from start to finish. The training courses are generally in the order of 15-18 months, and however things may look at the beginning of that period, they can look very different at the end of it! If an airline has no requirement for cadet pilots at any point in time, it simply will not take them on. That is something that needs to be planned for and very seriously considered in any financial planning.
The bank guarantees that are typical of these programmes usually require the guarantor to show that even with the secured loan it represents no more that 60% of the value of the security (home!) It usually also requires that the applicant and any guarantors furnish evidence of their ability to repay the loan schedule even if a job is not forthcoming at the point of graduation.
If an applicant couldn't satisfy these conditions it is unlikely they would be approved for the loan. In any event, if the prospect of this would be likely to cause undue hardship and certainly if it were to cause bankruptcy, then my advice would be not to consider it for one moment longer.
I consider this to be one of the better routes into fasttrack airline employment. It has been for some considerable time now. However, it comes with very significant risks. It comes with absolutely no guarantees, and it requires candidates to be ready and able to embark on a very steep and long term learning curve.
The simple answer is yes. The training organisation can certainly not refer him to a partner airline if they felt his level of attainment fell below an acceptable standard. In fact it would be their duty not to do so. The airline is expecting the candidates to have reached a level of attainment that prepares them for what is going to be a very steep learning curve from that point forward, and it is not going to be in anybody's interest to put forward weak trainees.
The courses are structured such that each module or section is subject to assessment throughout and at the conclusion of that section. It is not implausible (although it rarely happens) that a students training can be terminated if they fail to maintain a minimum standard. There are insurance polices that may help mitigate some of the costs incurred up to that point, however they do not (as I understand it) cover any and all reasons for failure. However they do provide some assurance. There are also options whereby a student can pay for additional training if remedial action is required that falls outside the scope of what is considered "normal." The wings cadet (airline) courses are selective, and if a candidate consistently fails to meet the standards required, they may be offered the option of switching to a regular integrated course which would likely involve not only additional cost, but also remove the inclusive AQC (Airline qualification course) which would then become an additional cost for the candidate. It would also shift a significant element of risk onto the candidate as graduates from the secondary programme are only put forward when they have demonstrated the same level of achievement as the wings cadets.
Having said that, most of the selected wings cadets (for the airline programmes) do go on to graduate successfully although even that provides no guarantee that the airline partners would necessarily have any requirement for cadets at the point of graduation. In recent years it hasn't been at all unusual for successful graduates to have to wait (in holding pools) for sometimes significant lengths of time in order to be placed with a partner. It is also true that people often do find hurdles in their training whereby they fail (usually only at the first attempt) one aspect of the course or other. As is the case in any other form of training or education, this is often part and parcel of the learning process. It is up to the airline what requirements they set in this regard, but it is unusual for a short term area of weakness that is subsequently redressed to present any problems beyond that point. Unless the failure was chronic and persistent, it would be very unlikely to impact on the graduates transition to advanced flight training (the airline part.)
Again, to highlight the big warning here....There are no guarantees! The airline industry is notoriously volatile! There simply are no guarantees, and it would be extremely unwise to plan or assume on a seamless transition from start to finish. The training courses are generally in the order of 15-18 months, and however things may look at the beginning of that period, they can look very different at the end of it! If an airline has no requirement for cadet pilots at any point in time, it simply will not take them on. That is something that needs to be planned for and very seriously considered in any financial planning.
The bank guarantees that are typical of these programmes usually require the guarantor to show that even with the secured loan it represents no more that 60% of the value of the security (home!) It usually also requires that the applicant and any guarantors furnish evidence of their ability to repay the loan schedule even if a job is not forthcoming at the point of graduation.
If an applicant couldn't satisfy these conditions it is unlikely they would be approved for the loan. In any event, if the prospect of this would be likely to cause undue hardship and certainly if it were to cause bankruptcy, then my advice would be not to consider it for one moment longer.
I consider this to be one of the better routes into fasttrack airline employment. It has been for some considerable time now. However, it comes with very significant risks. It comes with absolutely no guarantees, and it requires candidates to be ready and able to embark on a very steep and long term learning curve.
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Holty40,
You have to be insane to want to give ctc/oaa 100k, secured against your house. Come on..my gawd!! Get a grip on what you intend doing to your family. Bankrupt comes to mind.
Your son is young enough to go modular and when things pick up he will be debt free and able to pounce on any job offer (even the low paying ones) as he will likely still be single and without dependants. It aint rocket science.
Get him to do a ppl first.
You have to be insane to want to give ctc/oaa 100k, secured against your house. Come on..my gawd!! Get a grip on what you intend doing to your family. Bankrupt comes to mind.
Your son is young enough to go modular and when things pick up he will be debt free and able to pounce on any job offer (even the low paying ones) as he will likely still be single and without dependants. It aint rocket science.
Get him to do a ppl first.
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Maxed out,
Your advice is terribly outdated...
It's pretty simple: get on a tagged MPL scheme or join the wings scheme (With considerable risk). This is how it is and how it remains...
(No I did not attend CTC, but many of my colleagues did and they continue to be our preference.)
Your advice is terribly outdated...
It's pretty simple: get on a tagged MPL scheme or join the wings scheme (With considerable risk). This is how it is and how it remains...
(No I did not attend CTC, but many of my colleagues did and they continue to be our preference.)
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CTC are a very good school and if you're looking for a job, I firmly believe you stand the best chance of doing so through CTC. However as I've said before, CTC would not get you that job interview if you perform poor in training, they are not going to tarnish their reputation amongst the airlines for the sake of you, because it's that reputation they have with the airlines that makes them so popular for all the wannabes out there. Each airline also has set minimum grades that you have to have achieved through your training, fall below those grades and you are in trouble, perform to your best ability and achieve those grades and CTC will more than likely do what they do best and get you that interview.
easyJet require 85% average with maximum of 3 or 4 ATPL theory fails. The flight test requirements are all series 1 with the IRT being particularly crucial. With the amount of people being forced through CTC, easyJet can be more picky with the cadets they choose therefore you could do with attempt 1 in all theory and flight tests.
(former cadet now employed)
(former cadet now employed)
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Hello Everybody!
I have successfully passed the CTC Wings integrated programme selection. I am really happy but it would help if, based on your experience, you could give me your opinion on the following thing.
I am 34 years old (since February). I will then finish mytraining at 36. I know it is old compare to other students.
Question : Do you think i will have the same opportunity to be placed with a partner airline after completion of the training (assuming i have reached the same level of expectations, good grades etc...)
I am ready to take a risk (i have the money that i collected during the last 10 years) but not if i know in advance that i will have no chance to find a job.
Thanks for your feedbacks!
I have successfully passed the CTC Wings integrated programme selection. I am really happy but it would help if, based on your experience, you could give me your opinion on the following thing.
I am 34 years old (since February). I will then finish mytraining at 36. I know it is old compare to other students.
Question : Do you think i will have the same opportunity to be placed with a partner airline after completion of the training (assuming i have reached the same level of expectations, good grades etc...)
I am ready to take a risk (i have the money that i collected during the last 10 years) but not if i know in advance that i will have no chance to find a job.
Thanks for your feedbacks!
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I received the confirmation of my selection today. I have asked the question, i am waiting for the answer, but i would prefer having different opinions. I would let you know about the answer as soon as i receive it.
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The cadets that have been placed with us over the last 15+ years have certainly included people in their "Thirties." They are not in the majority, but that is simply because the majority of trainees (as you say) tend to be Twenties and some late teens. It has never (to my knowledge) ever been an issue on any level. That notwithstanding, equality regulations in various EC states would likely preclude age being a sole selection for disqualification.
Obviously, different parts of the world may have their own selective criteria whereby age limits form part of that criteria, but I never seen any evidence in my own sphere of observation that would suggest you should be concerned on this score.
Obviously, different parts of the world may have their own selective criteria whereby age limits form part of that criteria, but I never seen any evidence in my own sphere of observation that would suggest you should be concerned on this score.
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Few years ago there was certain companies, RyR that I suspect had ageism issues. However I think with the partners of CTC you will not have this issue.
I know because I tested the RyR, with 2 separate applications, the one where I was 10 years younger then actual age, I got invited to assessment, the other application never got a reply! ( the actual one was sent first)
I know because I tested the RyR, with 2 separate applications, the one where I was 10 years younger then actual age, I got invited to assessment, the other application never got a reply! ( the actual one was sent first)
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Thank you for answer. It is a good news !
i would like to have further information on the flexicrew contract
On CTC's website it is indicated that Cadet may be required to contribute to the cost of the Type Rating.
After having spent 90k£ it could be very difficult to find additional pounds... especially with the fixed payment of 1200£ proposed.
Do you have an idea on how much could be this cost (Does it depend on airlines ?). After that will you be bonded for a period of time with the airline. In case the airline contributed to the cost of the type rating will we have to repay over a period ?
Thanks!
i would like to have further information on the flexicrew contract
On CTC's website it is indicated that Cadet may be required to contribute to the cost of the Type Rating.
After having spent 90k£ it could be very difficult to find additional pounds... especially with the fixed payment of 1200£ proposed.
Do you have an idea on how much could be this cost (Does it depend on airlines ?). After that will you be bonded for a period of time with the airline. In case the airline contributed to the cost of the type rating will we have to repay over a period ?
Thanks!
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It does depend on the airline but for the orange on it was about 12.000 pounds. Do not, however, rely on this, as conditions and prices change every now and then and it could well be very different by the time you get there, if you are lucky to get there.
It would be very sensible to have some spare money apart from the training costs. Remedial training (they might include some, they always have, but not all of it), type ratings or others are things that you need to take into account.
It would be very sensible to have some spare money apart from the training costs. Remedial training (they might include some, they always have, but not all of it), type ratings or others are things that you need to take into account.
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Thanks.
Once paid the 12000£, will the "orange" take money on your salary ?
I heard that the salary was something like 45£ per hour and you had to pay back 20£ to reimbourse the difference between 32000£ and the already paid 12k£.
Is that right ?
Once paid the 12000£, will the "orange" take money on your salary ?
I heard that the salary was something like 45£ per hour and you had to pay back 20£ to reimbourse the difference between 32000£ and the already paid 12k£.
Is that right ?
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Unfortunately I did not go to the orange airline so I can't really tell. I believe that did not happen in the past, but whether or not it is the case nowadays I don't have a clue.
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Can anyone please give me a hint or even a ballpark figure as to how much the CTC wings cadets have to pay for the A320 TR upon being placed with easyjet, or thomas cook ? (I'm aware it will vary). While there is much chit chat about it I can't seem to find any actual figures given and CTC refuse to give them, insisting that as they constantly change, giving a figure would be misleading. I am just trying to get an idea of how much must be budgeted for after having paid for the wings course in order to pay for the TR. A PM would also be appreciated, Thanks !
