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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 13th Mar 2013, 15:23
  #4261 (permalink)  
 
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I would hazard a guess that there are some posters here with more connection to CTC than they are letting on.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 16:03
  #4262 (permalink)  
 
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Bealzebub promotes CTC once again. wannabes beware of the propaganda machine.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 16:10
  #4263 (permalink)  
 
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fish

I would hazard a guess that there are some posters here with more connection to CTC than they are letting on.
Quite.

Quote:
My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.
Followed by:
Quote:
The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.
That is a fact is it? Or is it just your opinion?
It clearly isn't a fact but it's a very possible guestimate.

Bealzebub you go on about MON who as I've said are a very fair, reasonable and decent employer who seem to want to do the right thing but though they do make up the second largest proportion of CTC graduates they take a relatively paltry amount in the scheme of things. There's another point to be made that this is a CTC thread not a Monarch thread. Short of a pre-selection by MON there's little chance of going to CTC and going their.

Question, how many placement opportunities is CTC expecting to secure considering the fact that they've increased the number of cadets going through the system? More exactly, will CTC really be able to secure a job for all the cadets within a year in the future or will they to pile up?
I appreciate that was perhaps a rhetorical question but no one knows. Venture capitalists, CTC and cadets alike are willing to invest in this. I believe there is planning for 60 new FOs in easy for 2013. I could be wrong and may have imagined that number.

Last edited by WhyByFlier; 13th Mar 2013 at 16:14.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 16:43
  #4264 (permalink)  
 
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Bealzebub promotes CTC once again. wannabes beware of the propaganda machine
Another one of your "facts" no doubt! In any event it is still wrong.

For specific airline cadet programmes these routes are the pretty much the only way in. Hence the title of the thread and the nature of the replies. It is hardly propaganda since it attempts to be accurate rather than false. I have nothing to do with CTC but a quarter of all the pilots that fly for my company have started as cadets through that route. That includes senior managers, managers, trainers, captains, and first officers.

Cadets usually make up around a third of a normal recruitment intake. The other groups being experienced type rated pilots and experienced non-type rated pilots (including military pilots.) The problem as it relates to this forum is that most wanabees are not likey to find themselves in either of those two latter groups anytime soon. The cadets come through this FTO and it seems reasonable to provide information that is as accurate as possible, so I do.

A few of you make the mistake of thinking that easyjet is the only game in town. In many ways that is a reasonable mistake because for the last few years it pretty much has been. As a result it set its own terms for cadet placements which were significantly worse than those employed by many of the other partners. As a dominant player it was able to do just that. Nevetheless many of the cadets who took that route have since found opportunities with other airlines on significantly better terms and conditions. We have taken some as experienced type rated pilots. Similarly BA, Virgin and the large Middle Eastern carriers have all drawn from that pool. Where T&C's are bad you can expect people to be looking for something better. Where T&C's are good you can expect people looking to establish themselves.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 16:58
  #4265 (permalink)  
 
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Where T&C's are bad you can expect people to be looking for something better. Where T&C's are good you can expect people looking to establish themselves.
I'll pop that in my book of wisdom along with buy low, sell high and don't eat yellow snow.

It's not quite true though as you'll know by the fact that a few from the Swiss part of easyJet left a salary and package that'll be larger than many MON capts are on just to be home with their birds.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 17:07
  #4266 (permalink)  
 
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It's not quite true though as you'll know by the fact that a few from the Swiss part of easyJet left a salary and package that'll be larger than many MON capts are on just to be home with their birds
As fascinating as I am sure that "fact" must be for you, I cannot see how it relates to wannabes generally or this thread specifically?
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 17:20
  #4267 (permalink)  
 
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You mentioned a pearl of wisdom - I disproved it. End of. It had relevance because of your comment not because of the thread title.

Look, I'm getting involved in more of a debate than I care to and it's getting a bit petty. I'm bowing out but suffice to say to the wannabes - don't count on bealzebub ( how ironic ), Monarch, easyJet or CTC to guide you, save you or have your needs/ wants as a priority. Everyone's ambitions and circumstances are different and we are living in what is currently a very dynamic world and market. Take care, it's not a particularly pleasant industry but it is a nice job.

Last edited by WhyByFlier; 13th Mar 2013 at 17:31.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 03:35
  #4268 (permalink)  
 
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Bealzebub,

On here 24/7, relentlessly defending CTC's cadet scheme in long, well-worded posts, yet claiming you are not associated somehow?

Please, give me a break.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 08:51
  #4269 (permalink)  
 
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Im not sure how relevant this is to the entire conversation, but I felt I had to stick it in somewhere. Monarch are currently recruiting 6 people from one of CPs currently at CTC, onto their MPL program of which I believe only 9 are eligible in the CP.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 09:42
  #4270 (permalink)  
 
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The problem is if there arn't 3-4 times the number of tagged cadets going through that training route will stop being viable. And the prefered option of recruitement will be gone.

Next year is going to be interesting after the last aircraft turn up to the loco's.

And the bulk of the 3 big schools are going to Ryan air who do also take modular. The majority of them fit into the ryanair model of young with family support to allow them to work while not being payed. Where as the modular students alot of them are outside the age bracket and have other commitments which doesn't allow for this.

If ryan and easyjet stop taking even for 6 months there is going to be a huge lump of unemployed pilots heavily in debt with no where to go.

And there are people getting work maybe not on a 737 or A320 but saab 340 ATR's, J41's, Saab2000's and other such types. But most of those jobs the airlines go for modular students.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 10:17
  #4271 (permalink)  
 
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Next year is going to be interesting after the last aircraft turn up to the loco's.
In addition, at EZY, recruitment for experienced rated and non-rated guys for summer 2014 is seemingly more likely (which is great news for everyone, depending on the contracts offered). This is apparently to help fill the hole between command ready SFO's and the glut of FO's who joined as cadets 2 -3 years ago.

This is only going to have a negative impact on cadet schemes, especially factoring in the MPL courses. Even for those 'lucky ones' then it will only be a flexicrew contract for the first 2 years, if all goes well then you might be offered a 75% permanent contract subject to passing an additional assessment day.

The whole process is a massive risk with too many variables.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 10:45
  #4272 (permalink)  
 
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Bealzebub,
On here 24/7, relentlessly defending CTC's cadet scheme in long, well-worded posts, yet claiming you are not associated somehow
Please, give me a break.
What is it you want a break from?.......Reality!

Ok! I haven't flown with these cadets for the last 15 years. I haven't seen a lot of people do really well from these programmes with good partners such as ourselves. I don't work for a company where over 25% of the company, from management through to First Officer, have come through this route. I don't work for a company that pays for type ratings. I don't work for a company that continues to recruit a balanced cross section from a spectrum of pilots, but wants its cadets from a good, consistent, recognised and managed source. I don't sleep. I simply lie in order to obtain large sums of remuneration from a flight training organisation to supplement my meagre salary and pension from the airline that I don't actually work for (I think?)

No one has ever done well by obtaining fasttrack career opportunities through one of these programmes. You would be much more likely to be working for a first tier airline by getting 250 hours as cheaply as possible, when those airlines will be knocking down your door to get you to come and work for them. The sky is falling in, and within a decade there will only be two airlines left, so save your money. From now on I will shut my eyes tight, put speed tape over my mouth (or fingers,) and put my fingers in my ears! (may be difficult with the tape on!)

There!

That wasn't as cathartic as it should have been, but it may be the 24/7 sleep deprivation that hasn't kicked in yet.


Does that help?
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 10:59
  #4273 (permalink)  
 
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Finally, some honesty.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 13:31
  #4274 (permalink)  
 
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From everything I've read here Beazlebub provides the most realistic and accurate information.

From my personal experience CTC provide a great service to the airline and the wannabe pilot, and they care a great deal for their cadets.

There are far too many angry people around here who for whatever reason have decided to go about trying to disprove the qualities of CTC. Just because you chose to go somewhere else for your training, or because you chose to go modular in a time where airlines very much prefer integrated students, you can't blame anyone else for that!

The fact of the matter is that CTC is the best choice for any wannabe pilot wanting a job in jet. No other single FTO can offer the level of service that CTC provides. Training was an absolute blast and I met some amazing friends and instructors along the way who are absolutely dedicated to your training.

If you volunteer at an open day for CTC the first thing they ask of you is to be honest. If you ask a question you are always given an accurate and truthful answer. If you haven't been to one of their open days, I highly recommend it!

Financially, of course it will cost a bomb! You would be mad to think it wouldn't. Take your time with the financial side of it, run some "what if" scenarios and gather ALL of the facts before you commit to a financial agreement. What I would say is the above mentioning of 180k of debt is absolutely ridiculous and don't get scared away by that figure. I budgeted for 100k plus interest on the amount that I had to borrow from the bank.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 16:35
  #4275 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by halfofrho
There are far too many angry people around here who for whatever reason have decided to go about trying to disprove the qualities of CTC. Just because you chose to go somewhere else for your training, or because you chose to go modular in a time where airlines very much prefer integrated students, you can't blame anyone else for that!
If that's what you have understood from the comments then it shows either a lack of comprehension skills or severe naivety.

The negative attitude towards CTC is for the monopoly it has in the cadet space and the significant impact this has had in making the profession a financial nonsense and in stifling normal career progression. Why anyone would take on 100k+interest payments worth of debt for a part-time contract on awful terms is beyond me. No one is doubting that CTC ends up placing a lot in the right seat of a jet. The scorn comes from the conditions under which this happens.

The overall quality of candidates CTC is putting through has deteriorated significantly since the unsecured loan days. How else do you justify a massive increase in throughput all-the-while significantly fewer pilots are required by the market (2005 vs now). The issue with fasttrack cadets is that generally they are very selectively chosen by the end employer airline. CTC have basically made the fast-track available to less able candidates who happen to have financial backing. Of course they like to tell all the cadets they are 'the cream' based on what is, in all reality, a very straightforward selection day. They are processing way more of these fast-track pilots than could ever be required by a single airline, hence the clever model of Flexicrew and part-time contracts. This in conjunction with agreements with airlines keen to cut costs, like easyJet, provides a sure-fire perpetual demand. The added bonus is CTC can boast about 100% placement records and the majority, who neither question nor look into it themselves, are willing to get into such debt for such a scheme.

Bealzebub does a very good job of providing information that is true for the airline he works for, which happens to be amongst the fairer. This airline does not take on a large percentage of the output from CTC. It is true that CTC is one of the best ways to get into the right seat of a jet.

But, you know, this whole 'placement' thing has been created by CTC, and it is simply a product of what I have described above. It is all an impeccably marketed model of course, as its success shows.

Last edited by BerksFlyer; 14th Mar 2013 at 16:38.
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 02:09
  #4276 (permalink)  
 
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The overall quality of candidates CTC is putting through has deteriorated significantly since the unsecured loan days.
Hearsay claptrap! If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC, and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 02:52
  #4277 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stocious View Post
Hearsay claptrap! If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC, and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.
The airlines get to choose the best candidates that the school produces. So far there are enough "meet the standard" graduates that the airlines are happy. If the school produces many graduates with most having rich parents who will pay for the training, but won't be good enough to meet the standard the airlines don't care as long as there are still enough to meet the demand, and so far that has not been a significant problem.

What happens to those left behind after spending huge amounts of money but no realistic chance of a job, is of absolute no concern to either the training provider or the airlines.

The bottom line is simple. The throughput of the big airline pilot factories has significantly increases while the major takers of the product have announced that they will reduce hiring of 250 hr wannabes as they need to balance their experience levels and anticipate a reduction in fleet growth.

Those are the facts and no amount of wistful thinking will change the central fact. Graduates from the pilot factories are competing for a declining number of positions under steadily deteriorating conditions.

One of the most important skills of a good pilot is managing risk. I would suggest that the first risk you should practice managing is the personal financial risk/reward relationship invoked with aspiring towards an airline pilot career......

Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 16th Mar 2013 at 01:22.
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 19:41
  #4278 (permalink)  
 
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Beazlebub

The Problem is in the numbers you see 2% At Ezy we see 98% thats the difference. No one is saying Mon do not treat there Cadets well but it is not the full story. what I have tried to do is detail in facts what happens to the majority.
Should the cadets still sign up to these shemes at least they do so with the full facts. In these uncertain times I would consider this be essential.

I do not want to see parents losing there homes.
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 19:57
  #4279 (permalink)  
 
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The Problem is in the numbers you see 2% At Ezy we see 98% thats the difference
Another one of those numbers plucked out of the air?

I do not want to see parents losing there homes.
Parents where they are guarantors need to own at least 40% of the equity in the security (home,) including the proposed loan. They also need to demonstrate affordability in the event that the primary borrower defaults.

In my experience most parents have sufficient experience and common sense to arrive at sensible risk decisions. I am not aware of a history of such secondary defaults, despite your obvious concern. Perhaps you are?
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 19:57
  #4280 (permalink)  
 
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If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC
Well Thomson have. For that very reason.

and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.
And which new airlines would these be then?
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