The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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I appreciate that one of the main routes to a FO position realistically is with CTC and Easyjet or OAA and Ryanair but what are the intake statistics for both of the FTO’s
What do we know?
OAA placed 188 pilots in 2012
CTC I presume is standing by its 100% placement record
So what is the total intake of both schools per year – is it 12 months X 15 cadets giving 180 or is it more with many not getting placed?
What do we know?
OAA placed 188 pilots in 2012
CTC I presume is standing by its 100% placement record
So what is the total intake of both schools per year – is it 12 months X 15 cadets giving 180 or is it more with many not getting placed?
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Are CTC Cadets still getting screwed with the bad Easyjet Flexicrew deal at the end training or has that changed and improved?
Last edited by turbine100; 8th Jan 2013 at 11:36.
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My question is, IF I were to train as an integrated student with CTC - towards the end of the course - let's say I am 'fortunate' and Easyjet decide to take me on. On a Flexicrew basis.
Would I be able to say - thanks, but no thanks. Then apply for a RHS at an airline such as Flybe (example only). What are the chances that an airline that are not a partner of CTC would be sympathetic towards you?
All the time I guess CTC would have views on this also.....
Would I be able to say - thanks, but no thanks. Then apply for a RHS at an airline such as Flybe (example only). What are the chances that an airline that are not a partner of CTC would be sympathetic towards you?
All the time I guess CTC would have views on this also.....
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Well, Mr 1862, so much for the idea of taking a deep breath!
I think pipersam probably has given the best advice. As I mentioned earlier the course you are on will be timetabled, and although they usually streamline into two or more groups at the flying stage, each course should broadly complete all of their stages within the programmed schedule. By its very nature, that means there are times when some people get ahead, and then have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up. The waiting can sometimes be very frustrating, but that is just part and parcel of flying generally.
Turner661, other people will be able to give you a more qualified answer, but my understanding is that you can decline an offer of placement, but that doesn't ensure another would then be offered on any sort of "seniority" basis. If you were offered a job at an airline outside of the placement scheme that would be fine. Your bond would satisfy your training course costs to date and the contract would be satisfied on both sides. In other words, I don't believe you could then go back and request a placement if things didn't work out with the employer.
As I understand it, the airline placement is the final advanced stage of the course, and the terms very much depend on the airline customers themselves. For some there are additional costs. For some there are no additional costs. Each one is very different, because the terms prevailing are based on those offered by the airline partner. There is usually no guarantee that an employment contract will dovetail from these placements, although everybody hopes that one will. The number of placements on offer will also depend on both the market and seasonal needs of each of the airline partners. The combination of these demands will always mean that any predictions are subject to change.
I think pipersam probably has given the best advice. As I mentioned earlier the course you are on will be timetabled, and although they usually streamline into two or more groups at the flying stage, each course should broadly complete all of their stages within the programmed schedule. By its very nature, that means there are times when some people get ahead, and then have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up. The waiting can sometimes be very frustrating, but that is just part and parcel of flying generally.
Turner661, other people will be able to give you a more qualified answer, but my understanding is that you can decline an offer of placement, but that doesn't ensure another would then be offered on any sort of "seniority" basis. If you were offered a job at an airline outside of the placement scheme that would be fine. Your bond would satisfy your training course costs to date and the contract would be satisfied on both sides. In other words, I don't believe you could then go back and request a placement if things didn't work out with the employer.
As I understand it, the airline placement is the final advanced stage of the course, and the terms very much depend on the airline customers themselves. For some there are additional costs. For some there are no additional costs. Each one is very different, because the terms prevailing are based on those offered by the airline partner. There is usually no guarantee that an employment contract will dovetail from these placements, although everybody hopes that one will. The number of placements on offer will also depend on both the market and seasonal needs of each of the airline partners. The combination of these demands will always mean that any predictions are subject to change.
Last edited by Bealzebub; 8th Jan 2013 at 20:15.
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Can anybody provide the intake wings cadet or oaa APPFO course totals for say Jan to Dec 2012?
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Dear mr1862,
I am sincerely sorry that you have interpreted my previous post as a personal attack, particularly as there are a number of issues on which I sympathise with your position. I was merely expressing an alternative opinion, one which I had hoped you'd be big enough to allow. There are a number of reasons why I felt compelled to do so, which I will outline in the interests of greater understanding.
Firstly, you have attempted to cast doubt over the professionalism of a particular instructor. The instructor in question is self-evidently a skilled and experienced teacher who is highly committed the work of getting CTC cadets through their exams with top marks. You have done so primarily because you are unhappy with other aspects of CTC. I think that is wrong.
Secondly, persistent suggestions of legal action will ultimately engender a negative impression of our CP with the management of CTC. A impression that says we are unable to compromise, lack motivation and are generally here to cause trouble. I know that that could not be farther from the truth.
Lastly, I would hope that prospective cadets reading this thread would come away with a balanced and realistic image of CTC (after all that was us only months ago). While I respect your opinion, its not the whole story, and its important to redress that.
As I have already said, I have absolutely no desire to attack you personally. In that spirit, I will refrain from making remarks about your people skills or speculating as to how many balls you have.
mr 1863
(consider my name a tribute, rather than a rip off)
Its a guinea pig actually.
I am sincerely sorry that you have interpreted my previous post as a personal attack, particularly as there are a number of issues on which I sympathise with your position. I was merely expressing an alternative opinion, one which I had hoped you'd be big enough to allow. There are a number of reasons why I felt compelled to do so, which I will outline in the interests of greater understanding.
Firstly, you have attempted to cast doubt over the professionalism of a particular instructor. The instructor in question is self-evidently a skilled and experienced teacher who is highly committed the work of getting CTC cadets through their exams with top marks. You have done so primarily because you are unhappy with other aspects of CTC. I think that is wrong.
Secondly, persistent suggestions of legal action will ultimately engender a negative impression of our CP with the management of CTC. A impression that says we are unable to compromise, lack motivation and are generally here to cause trouble. I know that that could not be farther from the truth.
Lastly, I would hope that prospective cadets reading this thread would come away with a balanced and realistic image of CTC (after all that was us only months ago). While I respect your opinion, its not the whole story, and its important to redress that.
As I have already said, I have absolutely no desire to attack you personally. In that spirit, I will refrain from making remarks about your people skills or speculating as to how many balls you have.
mr 1863
(consider my name a tribute, rather than a rip off)
Every time someone posts something negative about CTC on Pprune CTC kill a puppy.
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CTC is a pilot sausage factory, one I and many others before have had the 'pleasure' of being processed through. They make money by getting as many people on courses as possible. They, i.e. CTC/ARL/OAA/Parc/eJ/any other cost critical business don't CARE about you at all. It's about making as much profit for as little cost as possible. Wake up to reality.
At the end of the day, they can screw you because there are loads of people who want that coveted jet job and will pay endless amounts to get there. Expect this to continue even into 'employment' if FlexiCrew is here to say.
Don't get me wrong. I love my chosen career and wouldn't change it for the world. I do however hate the terms on which I am employed and would not recommend it to anyone, nor would I recommend CTC to anybody hence why I do not help out at any of their roadshows or careers days. I would much rather be on the BALPA stand telling people the reality of the industry than helping CTC exploit even more young aspiring pilots with Mum and Dad's cash.
You cannot just walk in to CTC, get your licence then expect a lucrative flying job. I emplore anyone reading this in this position to have a back up plan otherwise risk being disappointed.
Oh btw, were you expecting luxury treatment when you signed up??
At the end of the day, they can screw you because there are loads of people who want that coveted jet job and will pay endless amounts to get there. Expect this to continue even into 'employment' if FlexiCrew is here to say.
Don't get me wrong. I love my chosen career and wouldn't change it for the world. I do however hate the terms on which I am employed and would not recommend it to anyone, nor would I recommend CTC to anybody hence why I do not help out at any of their roadshows or careers days. I would much rather be on the BALPA stand telling people the reality of the industry than helping CTC exploit even more young aspiring pilots with Mum and Dad's cash.
You cannot just walk in to CTC, get your licence then expect a lucrative flying job. I emplore anyone reading this in this position to have a back up plan otherwise risk being disappointed.
Oh btw, were you expecting luxury treatment when you signed up??
Last edited by PitchPitch; 9th Jan 2013 at 23:52.
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could anyone in the know please advise how the £40,000 bond protection works? does that cover failure at any point of the course, or just the course in its entirety? in other words, say a student fails the ground school, will they be refunded their first bond payment as part of the bond protection? thank you!
Re: Bond protection
I think the bond protection has increased since I did it and it is likely the terms and conditions have changed so someone else may have to update this.
As I understand, the bond protection will not cover the first £10,000 (eg groundschool phase) and you are liable for this if you fail. If you fail later on in the training, you are eligible to get your bond returned to you up to a maximum of £40,000. This may not be exactly correct even when I did it (I am not reading from the contract but it should give you a rough idea). Best thing to do would be to contact CTC directly about it.
If you put in the effort you will complete the ground school so I wouldn't attempt the course if you don't feel up to the challenge.
As I understand, the bond protection will not cover the first £10,000 (eg groundschool phase) and you are liable for this if you fail. If you fail later on in the training, you are eligible to get your bond returned to you up to a maximum of £40,000. This may not be exactly correct even when I did it (I am not reading from the contract but it should give you a rough idea). Best thing to do would be to contact CTC directly about it.
If you put in the effort you will complete the ground school so I wouldn't attempt the course if you don't feel up to the challenge.
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PitchPitch, you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. CTC makes a majority of their money from sending cadets to Partner Airlines, and it does so very well.
I doubt very much you can even spell CTC, let alone have attended their exemplary school.
Please be more convincing next time you lie on these forums.
I doubt very much you can even spell CTC, let alone have attended their exemplary school.
Please be more convincing next time you lie on these forums.
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So it seems EZY is offering current Flexicrew (ex-CTC)/Parc contractors permanent contracts, albeit on undesirable t&c. Good news for ex-cadets in terms of income security, and also means these pilots will stick with the airline for much longer than has been the case in recent years. This probably means far fewer placements for CTC graduates with the airline going forward:
* EZY is still growing, but far less than in previous years - 7 new a/c this year compared to 21 in 2012.
* MON took 24 cadets, but this does not reflect any long term trend... They gained a few airframes this year and BA took a number of their crews.
* TCX is about to enter a merger process (historically this does not create pilot jobs!).
* Flybe are shedding pilots and have their own MPL scheme
* BA mainline have their own cadet scheme for now
* RYR and Cityflyer take from Oxford
* TOM have their own scheme...
The only others in the UK are Jet2 and Aer Lingus. Will they be looking at the middle east again? e.g. second officers for Ethiad.
* EZY is still growing, but far less than in previous years - 7 new a/c this year compared to 21 in 2012.
* MON took 24 cadets, but this does not reflect any long term trend... They gained a few airframes this year and BA took a number of their crews.
* TCX is about to enter a merger process (historically this does not create pilot jobs!).
* Flybe are shedding pilots and have their own MPL scheme
* BA mainline have their own cadet scheme for now
* RYR and Cityflyer take from Oxford
* TOM have their own scheme...
The only others in the UK are Jet2 and Aer Lingus. Will they be looking at the middle east again? e.g. second officers for Ethiad.
Cityflyer has sort of taken cadets from CTC but none have started training yet as I understand it. They are in an airline holdpool so that isn't a firm offer.
CTC graduates are still eligible to apply for Ryanair but don't unless they have not been admitted into the hold pool as it involves forking out an additional £35k.
CTC graduates are still eligible to apply for Ryanair but don't unless they have not been admitted into the hold pool as it involves forking out an additional £35k.
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WARNING FOR ALL WHO ARE CONSIDERING TRAINING ORGANISATION LIKE CTC
I work for an Orange company based at LGW. On a dailly basis F/O describe there financial plight while we are flying. I read with horror the lack of understanding from people on this forum. I appreciate the flying schools provide statistics and coloured brochures, thats there job they selling like all business there products.
However the reallity is very different, the debit at the end of all the training including type ratings cost of living etc ranges with each individual. the figures the cadets have given me range between £120,000 to £180,000.
I appreciate there is a big difference but that is not the point. There loan repayment are £1000 / month during the winter they can hardly afford this payment let alone pay for rent, food etc. Many have gone bankrupt, others have to sleep on floors, rely on crew food for eating.
The new contract being offered at the Orange factory will mean they will live in poverty for many years. We have reached the point where this once great industry has now become a profit making scheme for the providers and Airlines at your expence
By joining these schemes you are just contributing to the deteoriating conditions. While people are willing to pay for these schemes companies will continue to reduce what you earn, the objectives of the Airlines is to get the Flight deck crews paying to fly.
You may feel that this does not effect you but it does if you are considering these schemes.
The answere I dont have, however as some one who has had a great career in aviation, the very least I can do is provide another side to this awful unfolding story.
Good luck with your choice.
I work for an Orange company based at LGW. On a dailly basis F/O describe there financial plight while we are flying. I read with horror the lack of understanding from people on this forum. I appreciate the flying schools provide statistics and coloured brochures, thats there job they selling like all business there products.
However the reallity is very different, the debit at the end of all the training including type ratings cost of living etc ranges with each individual. the figures the cadets have given me range between £120,000 to £180,000.
I appreciate there is a big difference but that is not the point. There loan repayment are £1000 / month during the winter they can hardly afford this payment let alone pay for rent, food etc. Many have gone bankrupt, others have to sleep on floors, rely on crew food for eating.
The new contract being offered at the Orange factory will mean they will live in poverty for many years. We have reached the point where this once great industry has now become a profit making scheme for the providers and Airlines at your expence
By joining these schemes you are just contributing to the deteoriating conditions. While people are willing to pay for these schemes companies will continue to reduce what you earn, the objectives of the Airlines is to get the Flight deck crews paying to fly.
You may feel that this does not effect you but it does if you are considering these schemes.
The answere I dont have, however as some one who has had a great career in aviation, the very least I can do is provide another side to this awful unfolding story.
Good luck with your choice.
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Well there's a balanced and well thought out post from someone who's not been through the current system.
I hesitate to say it, but if your cadets have £180k training debts then they must have had an awful lot of remedial lessons along the lines!
I hesitate to say it, but if your cadets have £180k training debts then they must have had an awful lot of remedial lessons along the lines!