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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 12th Jan 2010, 22:35
  #3501 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 253
We will fight them on the aprons, we will fight them on the taxiways....

Originally Posted by GuyAK
hello everyone,

I am progressing through the CTC selection process for the cadets scheme at the minute and have noticed you dont think much to it all. Could you explain why.

Ps. I would go back and read all your threads if they didnt go on so much about the economy , is very difficult to factor out the key issues you are alraising.

Never before in any human endeavour, has so much money been spent, by so many, for so little.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 15:21
  #3502 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: over there
Posts: 56
I literally do not know what to do, all i have ever wanted to do is fly
Just wait for a bit, if you start training in two years time you'll be qualified by time you're 30 and still have a potential 35 year career!

What to do in the meantime? Save lots and lots and lots of money. If you're lucky enough to find one try and get a job within an airline and start making contacts like your life depends on it.

Last edited by alpha.charlie; 13th Jan 2010 at 18:05.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 17:07
  #3503 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Birmingham
Age: 36
Posts: 6
Cheers for that advice. Also, what about abroad, are pilot carers in the sh*t everywhere. I havenít really got anything holding me to the UK. I know America is in a bit of a mess but what about anywhere else?
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 18:30
  #3504 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
Now you are on to something Guy, Pilot carers are a great idea! Until the employment market improves globally though they wont be needed as their aren't as many pilots to care for.
TheBeak is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2010, 19:05
  #3505 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 783

If it was pilot "careers" that you meant, then yes, the situation is quite bad in many parts of the world. Some areas such as Asia, however, seem to be doing well at a glance, but who really knows.

However, as has been said many times before, aviation is a cyclic industry - it has good times, and it has bad times (such as now).

The advice from alpha.charlie is worth taking on board - save your money, try to get a job with an airline or in the aviation industry, meet as many people as possible and if you can afford it, gradually start doing flying training with your savings. If the market stays like this you might be better off going to America, getting a flying instructor's licence and teaching people to fly in the sunshine. Whatever makes you happy - just whatever you do, don't hand over any large piles of money to anybody in the near future.

And for God's sake learn to use the Search function!!

Good luck!
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 22:39
  #3506 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chelmsford UK
Age: 37
Posts: 8
Another point of view

Dear all,

just thought I'd throw my opinion in. This thread used
to be a place for dreams and excitement, now it is a miserable dump. I have just finished the New Zealand phase and only a few hours to
go to irt. The last year of my life has been amazing. Yes I'm massively in debt, yes I may loose my house if I can't repay my loan but do I care? No. Would I do it again. Most definately. Just my experience chaps. I'm sure the other cadets from my course who have become very close friends would agree but I doubt they'll be looking here because of what a bleak, soul-destroying place it has become due to their supposedly supportive peers.

So here's to those inexperienced cadets cleaning your windows and serving your coffees and who knows maybe we'll all have jobs one day.

Good luck to you all.

Signing off and still smiling, jamer x
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 23:31
  #3507 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ...
Posts: 14
jamer, im going to say this, and it comes from the bottom of my heart, I hate you. I was a ctc cadet and i lost everything, EVERYTHING! Im going bankrupt, i have no bloody job and you dare say you dont care about the debt. You had better pray i never meet you.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 23:52
  #3508 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: BIG/LAM/BNN/OCK* delete as applicable
Posts: 24
Throwing away a house for a year of flying and drinking in the Tron?

Muppetry of the highest order.

The dreams and excitement of which you speak came from the fact that the course was regarded as the golden ticket to a permanent contract in the RHS of a shiny jet. That opportunity has for now, and possibly permanently disappeared.

This thread is no longer about passing on the gen about how to pass the various stages of selection. It is about the lucky ones amongst us who happened to escape the system just in time and get a job, and those that weren't so lucky, finished a matter of weeks later, and now find themselves trapped in the cycle of temporary contract work, warning the starry eyed wannabes that gambling a house (whoever it happens to belong to) on the CTC Wings Scheme is not worth it at the moment.

Jamer, you and your course mates can stick your heads in the sand and ignore this bleak, soul destroying forum. And whilst you complete your training I would be doing exactly the same, for you have no other choice. But 70k for a flying holiday in NZ is nothing to be proud of. And yes you should care about being in debt. Because the thing about which you profess to care so little, is part of the reason you won't see a permanent flying contract in the near future,

As one particular thread on the CTC forum suggests, many of us ex-cadets are not happy at all about the future for those that follow behind us. We comment on here not for self-gratification, but because we understand what it means to have to make repayments on a massive loan in the here and now. Not some time in the future, but now.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 23:54
  #3509 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lyon
Posts: 55
If you take the plunge now, and at any time in the forseeable future, I promise that the only things you will have at the end of the course are a worthless shiny blue book, and memories of Furnace and Firecats in The Tron. Nothing else.
And yet, John Smith, I think you're also incorrect in the above. The truth (at least for me) lies somewhere in between what people like you and Jamer have to say. Don't get me wrong, I agree with some of the comments you've just made. It bizarre how cavalier some people can be with their money and security?! I'm sure they won't be that way inclined when the baliffs arrive, as you say.

Times are indeed tough but there are still individuals out there who are securing gainful employment. They may be few and far between... but the fact remains. BALPA's healine article from Oct/Nov 09 "A Change for the Worse" sums it all up when it comes to Cadet schemes and the myriad of associated concerns.

CTC still offers a scheme where opportunities are presented. The terms may have changed but if you're prepared to work with them... they're still valid.

Where I have to agree with Jamer is how this forum has slowly but surely degraded into one which shows little or no support for aspiring pilots and where viscous rumours are rife (it's amazing how inaccurate reports about CTC are until someone volunteers the truth - the starting point is always way off!). For every pearl of wisdom, there seems to be ten or so kick in the balls. I used to pay attention to what others like WWW and the rest of them have to say... but now all they do is state there's absolutely sweet FA out there. The predicted timescales get longer, the rhetoric increases, and self-congratulations abound over how right they were it was always going to end in tears. The way they phrase their comments these days, it sounds almost illogical to maintain a positive outlook. Instead, we should simply give up hope.

It's this lack of unity and cohesion that breeds malcontent. Ultimately, it spells the end of any valued contribution from this forum for me. It pains me to say this.

Rest assured I'll read your response to this post (if you so choose) but now that I've said my piece, I'll leave it at that.

Lastly, I sincerely hope we all get what we deserve after the time, money and efforts spent.

All the best to you and Jamer alike.
FlyBoyFryer is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 23:55
  #3510 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South now...
Age: 39
Posts: 286
I hope Jamer is a troll, otherwise I fear for the standard of person now being given a blue book....

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Old 14th Jan 2010, 23:57
  #3511 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Age: 36
Posts: 376

Your post is so ridiculous that I'm afraid it just has to be shot down in flames.

Yes, this thread used to be a place of "dreams and excitement". However, as things have turned out this is no longer the case. Now it reflects reality, so yes, it is a dump now, but NEWSFLASH: the airline industry is a dump. It is a rape-fest. Whoever will prostitute themselves for the lowest price will get the job, no matter how grossly incompetent (within reason).

Jamer, you try "signing off and still smiling" from your soul destroying office job which you'll no doubt have in a few months and you see if that's still the case in one year. Because it won't be. And if you're particularly resilient you try it a year from then because that's how long it's gonna take. At least. There is nothing in this world which annoys me as much as mindless optimism which you have just displayed. You are meant to be a professional pilot soon so you should be capable of looking at a set of facts and extrapolating a trend from it: the trend is bad. You are going into a world of sh** to quote Full Metal Jacket.

You think we're all so "negative". Oh why do we have to be so nasty!?!?!
I'm not being nasty, I'm telling you this for your own good: This is the way it is. You try keeping your ridiculous "positive" attitude in 18 months from now when you're still unemployed unless your daddy gives you £34K to get done over some more.

You see how happy you are when you've lost you're job, house, girlfriend and life within a week. With no prospects in sight of a recovery from this.

You see how "positive" you are then.

PS: it's definitely, not definately and what's with the "x", I'm not your girlfriend!?!
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 00:12
  #3512 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 954
I used to pay attention to what others like WWW and the rest of them have to say... but now all they do is state there's absolutely sweet FA out there. The predicted timescales get longer, the rhetoric increases, and self-congratulations abound over how right they were it was always going to end in tears
Isnt that a good thing? Surely these posters make no monetary gain for giving such advice, yet go on OAA's forum they seem to have a paid 'advisor' on there suggesting not to read PPRuNe!!!

Im sorry but anyone who invested their money and time in such a course recently needs sectioning! I have a very good friend who was 'lucky' to come out of OAA a couple of years ago and get into FR to pay for a type rating. Bear in mind this was the time that BA were recruiting (whom he pinned so may hopes on getting into!!) and it has gone down the swanny!

My instructor (who has nothing to gain) always tell me, never pay more that 40K for your ATPL, particularly never go to an intergrated school. Now he does not do the ME/IR anymore, but when he did a number of students ended up at BA.... This is by no means a well known FTO either!

As for not being worried about losing YOUR (parents?) house. Please tell me when you get an airline job and i will make sure i never fly with you. Surely excellent risk analysis is a certain pre-requisit for any pilot?
pug is online now  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 08:33
  #3513 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 73

Having gone through the CTC course a good long time before you probably thought to do it and still without a permanent contract with an airline I am now into my second year flying for, I frankly feel sick to the pit of my stomach reading such unutterable bollocks. You so obviously illustrate how the quality of cadets has gone downhill as unsecured loans dried up. Myself and my ex-course mates are in financial turmoil and for what??! 4 sector nackering days with no idea if you have a job to pay for food almost every month. Son you shouldn't be anywhere near an aircraft let alone one with 156 people down the back. This kind of post scares me to death and illustrates just how warped the minds of the new wannabes from CTC and OAT are who have secured their loans against houses and other valuables. I wouldn't believe for a second that your age even remotely resembles 27 - this is the kind of attitude I expect from a 17-19 year old with no concept of money or reality. What an insult you are to us ex-CTC cadets who are heading for bankruptcy.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 08:34
  #3514 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: .
Posts: 559
Jamer, at the moment you are in the training high, its going well, you are living with good friends having a riot and life seems very good. To be honest, enjoy it and try not to worry about what is waiting for you as you need to concentrate on your flying! However do start to give it some thought from a financial point of view. PPP and all that!
However, if you really really don't care about losing your house I will buy it from you for £50 today. PM me and we will arrange the deal. No? So you do care really, I am sure you do. I understand where you come from but don't be surprised at the strength of the replies you have received as some people are experiencing horrendous heartache at the moment and flippant comments like yours only twist the knife further.

FBF(and Jamer), Not everyone is having a go! 10 kicks in the balls to every pearl of wisdom, bit like the job market. People are telling others how it is at the moment.
People may be posting on here saying timescales are getting longer etc etc. Its because they are trying to provide others with information so that they can plan and see what's happening. How is that not supporting aspiring pilots!?!?! Just because you don't like the information you are given you should not just start to ignore it. Read about the mount Erebus accident and see what a false mental model can do!!!

What would you prefer. Unity and cohesion full of lies. Train it's great. You will be out of the hold pool soon and you will will be on £65K before you know it with full benefits. Come on brothers its wonderful....
Or the truth so people can plan?!?!

P.S those conditions you are prepared to work with FBF I am trying to improve. At the moment I am cajoling the union to fight for you. Telling everyone I can about what is happening to try and get them to fight for you. I have already said I would strike tomorrow to defend your future T&C's. I am emailing the union, posting on forums etc trying to help. I think you will find we are supportive Jamer!!! Sometimes I think, do you want to be saved though!?! We try and you tell us stop being so gloomy as it breads malcontent!!!

I tried to stay positive but didn't so you will probably disregard my post. Well I was only trying to help. Part of me wonders why I bother spending my own time doing so?! Do you know what, I don't think I will anymore. Bye.

Last edited by one post only!; 15th Jan 2010 at 09:07.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 08:47
  #3515 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: London
Age: 32
Posts: 902
Listening to ex-ctc cadets on this thread has made me realise my thoughts are not entirely unreasonable!
Jamer, I really hope this is just some kind of a wind up. You try reading what you've written here when you've sat in the holdpool for 6 months, with your loan starting to feel like a grand piano suspended just above your head. I don't want to hurl abuse towards you as there has been plenty already done, just wanting to try and understand how on earth you feel this way.
I also echo comments on this thread that anyone looking to start flying training now and for the previous 6 months must have no problems with money. The job I currently do, working 50hours a week will just about earn me £1000k after tax, so I could just about make repayments. Just the small fact I wouldn't have any money left over to have a life! When I joined, it was a golden ticket, the entire amount given to you without so much as a credit check, when you finish, a choice of airlines to go and a permanent contact at the end. A great, great shame that this is no longer the case
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 09:13
  #3516 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166

You are a possibly the biggest moron whose post I have ever had the displeasure of reading on here.

Once again, another ex CTCer here (CP-early20s) and I couldn't agree more with what the previous few posts have said. I'm very impressed with onepostonly's composure to be able to put things so rationally. I, like the others, will not give you that courtesy.

Yes, this forum used to be an upbeat place, encouraging people to go for selection, the best way to approach it etc. but this was when times were good. When airlines couldn't give out proper full time contracts quick enough to crew their massively expanding fleets during an economic boom.

The whole reason that the very people who are currently in the position that you long to be in are making this such a gloomy and depressing place is because we know what it's like and we are trying to do a favour to all those people contemplating starting a training course and putting themselves in your position. We are the good guys here.

As for your comments about losing your house and not caring, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. The day you realise that being an airline pilot is not some kind of Disney dream will be the day that the Captain has been incapacitated and you are frozen with terror by the idea of making an approach on your own into some West African shit hole, trying, but failing, to dodge the biggest thunderstorms you've ever seen.

I pray to God I'm not on your flight then.

If you honestly stand by what you said, have the balls (or ovaries) to come back to what we've all said. If you don't I suggest that you start looking for another full time job. I hear Greggs are going to have more stores than McDonalds very soon.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 09:30
  #3517 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 0
There's not much more I can add to the above.

All I would say is that all Wannabes, on all schemes, following all paths continue to have my deepest sympathy and my best wishes.

What has come to pass, whilst expected, is truly awful and has the ability to wreck peoples lives. It is for this reason that I have always thought it appropriate that, on this forum, the dangers and downsides were always clearly communicated.

Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 11:50
  #3518 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere between Avant and Vaton.....usually
Posts: 338
I don't think the issue with other PPRuNers is what its like to be a CTC cadet. I think the issue is what it's like to be a CTC cadet after the cadet has finished the course. Its the "what happened next............" that other PPRuNers take issue with.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 11:55
  #3519 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 73
chelsce, you are probably more stupid than Jamer. If thats at all possible. Unless you are the same person.

If you haven't noticed most if not almost ALL of the comments have been from people who are far more qualified to have an opinion on the issue than you are since almost all of them are EX-CTC. You are not in airline and haven't even finished the licence...you look like the clueless wannabe in this case. The advice been given out here is from people having done the course and have already entered airline flying or and WWW's case, a captain for one of the partners who flies with us regularaly. I think he knows.

I absolutely DESPAIR.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 11:59
  #3520 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 73
Hmmm greggs and mcdonalds...didnt know they were hiring. And yes....for some of us these are the places we are working at due to being LAID OFF.

And no one was bitter until you and the other lad jumped on here banging on about loosing houses and not particularly caring. Come back in a year and a half once you have sat in the hold pool for a year or two and it actually happens and post the same thing. We are in a financial nightmare and you two come on here clueless as ever claiming you wouldn't care. Lucky for some.

P.S. I wasn't joking in the first paragraph. Many are at present working at these exact types of companies after having already flown an airbus/boeing through CTC.
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