The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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The type rating is covered in the cost of a CTC course.
I think what you've heard is something to do with easyjets lack of commitment to 're-pay' a cadet the bond back. I.e. a move towards contract work as a standard, rather than placing cadets on permanent contracts and then re-paying the bond back at a reduced tax rate.
I think what you've heard is something to do with easyjets lack of commitment to 're-pay' a cadet the bond back. I.e. a move towards contract work as a standard, rather than placing cadets on permanent contracts and then re-paying the bond back at a reduced tax rate.
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Thats how it stands at present but I have heard about a fundamental change to the course. Contract work (which we have currently) AND having to pay for the type rating as well. A small upfront payment and then rest of the cost of the type rating would be deducted from the salary over 3 years. In essence its a pay cut for new joiners. Its come from the BALPA forum but the more I think about it, it can't be true though. Can it?? Someone tell me its rubbish! Please.
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I am hearing rumblings about easyJet (note spelling!) wanting new start CTC cadets to pay for their type rating!! Is this true?!!?!
Easyjet are completely screwing the latest batch of cadets and not suprisingly CTC are standing by and watching. So the goalposts have been moved massively.
If you are a cadet on the CTC scheme you all need to be getting in touch with CTC to find out exactly what the plans are. I'm afraid the levels of exploitation are reaching new levels. I know this because I had one of the cadets affected by the new developments on the jumpseat a few days ago. I've emailed the ezy Balpa CC so they are aware, what they can do to limit the situation I really don't know.
WBV, One Post long time no see, hope you boys are well.
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Personally you CTC'ers should be more concerned with "one liners" on the other thread (in T&C's) on how your being viewed with in the industry...
This is only the start of things to come as this deflation cycle plays out.
This is only the start of things to come as this deflation cycle plays out.
I don't know what industry you're referring to - maybe the regional turboprop 'industry' where people are finding it difficult to progress to jet jobs, in which case some bitterness might be understandable. In my airline, however, the cadets have an excellent reputation. I have heard positive comments in the past couple of weeks alone from training captains and normal line captains.
I think 'you CTCers' have more pressing worries at the moment than what a few PPrune whingers have posted in another thread. Take no notice.
I think 'you CTCers' have more pressing worries at the moment than what a few PPrune whingers have posted in another thread. Take no notice.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-contract.html
Despite my two years of issuing dire warnings to wannabes not to put themselves in such a situation I am shocked at just how perfect a Hell has been created so swiftly (if true).
Timing is everything in this industry - always has been.
WWW
Despite my two years of issuing dire warnings to wannabes not to put themselves in such a situation I am shocked at just how perfect a Hell has been created so swiftly (if true).
Timing is everything in this industry - always has been.
WWW
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CJD, hang on, hang on. We are singing form the same hymm sheet, I (or the others) am not living in some fantasy land. When has any of us said this is a GOOD deal?? We are not talking about flexi cabin crew work anyway. Its CC work while on a (already agreed to be ****) flexi contract.
Cadets pilots do training. Then work for a bit and get stood down. While stood down they get nothing as they are not working. They then get taken back on. etc etc.
EZY have offered some of them work as CC during part of the period they are stood down. This will only be a couple of months. As we have alluded to already its better than NOTHING. NOT A GOOD DEAL BUT BETTER THAN A KICK IN THE BOOBS (I thought that was fairly clear). Any work paying money is better than earning the square root of **** all.
However the situation that led them to have to take CC work for a couple of months..............! None of us live in fantasy land and think this is a good deal at all! Me personally, I wouldn't do it though as it means they don't need to employ extra cabin crew. Part of me would also worry that if it worked well they would make it a regular plan!
As for your opinion of the view of cadets in the industry, I think most people don't blame the cadets. They blame EZY and CTC. None of this is the fault of the cadets so don't try and lay blame at their door. Unless you want to argue how if none of them accepted the deal etc etc but we would all be here all day....
BMRR, I am good thanks mate. Still trying to drag the odd visual in!!! I will follow your lead I think and email the EZY BALPA CC as this is (the pay for type rating) sounding very much a reality and really really takes the piss!!! I have a worrying feeling we are watching the industry go down the pan!
Edit to add: whoever used to call WWW a doom and gloom merchant, I think you owe him an apology!
Cadets pilots do training. Then work for a bit and get stood down. While stood down they get nothing as they are not working. They then get taken back on. etc etc.
EZY have offered some of them work as CC during part of the period they are stood down. This will only be a couple of months. As we have alluded to already its better than NOTHING. NOT A GOOD DEAL BUT BETTER THAN A KICK IN THE BOOBS (I thought that was fairly clear). Any work paying money is better than earning the square root of **** all.
However the situation that led them to have to take CC work for a couple of months..............! None of us live in fantasy land and think this is a good deal at all! Me personally, I wouldn't do it though as it means they don't need to employ extra cabin crew. Part of me would also worry that if it worked well they would make it a regular plan!
As for your opinion of the view of cadets in the industry, I think most people don't blame the cadets. They blame EZY and CTC. None of this is the fault of the cadets so don't try and lay blame at their door. Unless you want to argue how if none of them accepted the deal etc etc but we would all be here all day....
BMRR, I am good thanks mate. Still trying to drag the odd visual in!!! I will follow your lead I think and email the EZY BALPA CC as this is (the pay for type rating) sounding very much a reality and really really takes the piss!!! I have a worrying feeling we are watching the industry go down the pan!
Edit to add: whoever used to call WWW a doom and gloom merchant, I think you owe him an apology!
Last edited by one post only!; 14th Dec 2009 at 08:04.
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Details given to me by a cadet who is affected:
This is the worst deal in the history of CTC/easyJet, I cannot think of any deal worse that involves such a huge financial stake from the cadet in return for a "contract" that you wouldn't even line your cat's sh
t bowl with. It is worse than the FR deal with Brookfield.
For all those who think going to CTC is a good idea and have enjoyed listening to their spin, bear in mind this: when the likes of myself and One Post Only went through the CTC programme, we were offered provisional jobs with easyJet before we even set foot in a single engine piston for day one of training. We were given £5000 each to spend on beer and strippers in New Zealand. We went out to NZ in course sizes of 6, though many courses were smaller. We were provided with a laptop each for ATPL study and were given one car per 2 cadets to use as we wished. Once training was finished, those of us bound for easyJet were straight onto an MCC course, and were then given a choice of a B737 rating or an A320 rating. Hell some guys were even given a choice of airline. This is all with 250hrs under your belt. It was quite something. We all paid 60K as a "bond" (loan) and that covered everything. Not a penny more was required. This was the period between 2003 - late 2007/early2008.
Let us fast forward not even 2 years. The deal is now this. (Current cadets please correct me if I go wrong anywhere). The cost of the course is now £69,000. Course sizes have been doubled. You are required to fund the PPL part of the training to the tune of $12,000 kiwi dollars in addition to the £69K. You are required to sort out your own insurance, this was previously provided as part of the cost of the course. The laptops and cars are gone. Once finished you will face a wait of anything between 6 months and over a year for a type rating and there are several cadets who have declared themselves bankrupt. And the latest development is when you get an offer it will be from ezy and it will be the details outlined above.
The point I am making is the sales pitch delivered at these CTC open days is very much based on the scenario I describe in the first paragraph, whereas the reality of being a CTC cadet is very much the second. It was always a high risk get-to-a-jet-job-quick scheme. It required a large financial outlay but provided a good job on a decent permanent contract and good pay at the end of the training. Now the course requires a much bigger financial burden to be carried by the cadet, and, as the guys who were sold the 2003-2007 dream are finding out as they reach the end of training, the original deal is dead.
Things will hopefully improve in the industry in a wider sense at some point, but don't think those graduating in 2/3/4 years will be back on deals we saw in the the previous golden days of airline hiring. The latest debacle of a contract has set the bar even lower, and easyJet, and therefore other airlines will be in no rush to improve a brand new cadet's terms and conditions. The way of the future is clear, cadets on temporary, badly paid contracts. No job security and no idea where they will send you next.
I'm not saying this to pour salt in any wounds or show off how easy those of us who trained between 2003-7 had it, just to point out how quickly things have turned totally crap. I was lucky, along with the guys I trained with, the guys coming through now are sht out of luck and I have a massive amount of sympathy for them. There are plenty of pilots at ezy who are disgusted at the way cadets are treated and we are trying to get Balpa to find a way to do something that helps the guys affected by the recent changes to the way cadets are employed and paid.
I never thought I'd say this but I really, really don't think this career is worth the hassle any more.
-Initial TR payment is 4K.
-Pay of £500 a month during TR training.
- £1200 a month thereafter with no flight pay up to 6 month mark.
- Pay of £48 an hour with £20 an hour deducted to go towards TR cost - for 3 years, which you are bonded for. They do not guarantee hours. 700 hours will mean a salary of just shy of £20K and a TR repayment of £42K.Salary des not cover loan repayments .
-If you leave before 3 years you pay back full TR cost.
-Pay of £500 a month during TR training.
- £1200 a month thereafter with no flight pay up to 6 month mark.
- Pay of £48 an hour with £20 an hour deducted to go towards TR cost - for 3 years, which you are bonded for. They do not guarantee hours. 700 hours will mean a salary of just shy of £20K and a TR repayment of £42K.Salary des not cover loan repayments .
-If you leave before 3 years you pay back full TR cost.
t bowl with. It is worse than the FR deal with Brookfield.For all those who think going to CTC is a good idea and have enjoyed listening to their spin, bear in mind this: when the likes of myself and One Post Only went through the CTC programme, we were offered provisional jobs with easyJet before we even set foot in a single engine piston for day one of training. We were given £5000 each to spend on beer and strippers in New Zealand. We went out to NZ in course sizes of 6, though many courses were smaller. We were provided with a laptop each for ATPL study and were given one car per 2 cadets to use as we wished. Once training was finished, those of us bound for easyJet were straight onto an MCC course, and were then given a choice of a B737 rating or an A320 rating. Hell some guys were even given a choice of airline. This is all with 250hrs under your belt. It was quite something. We all paid 60K as a "bond" (loan) and that covered everything. Not a penny more was required. This was the period between 2003 - late 2007/early2008.
Let us fast forward not even 2 years. The deal is now this. (Current cadets please correct me if I go wrong anywhere). The cost of the course is now £69,000. Course sizes have been doubled. You are required to fund the PPL part of the training to the tune of $12,000 kiwi dollars in addition to the £69K. You are required to sort out your own insurance, this was previously provided as part of the cost of the course. The laptops and cars are gone. Once finished you will face a wait of anything between 6 months and over a year for a type rating and there are several cadets who have declared themselves bankrupt. And the latest development is when you get an offer it will be from ezy and it will be the details outlined above.
The point I am making is the sales pitch delivered at these CTC open days is very much based on the scenario I describe in the first paragraph, whereas the reality of being a CTC cadet is very much the second. It was always a high risk get-to-a-jet-job-quick scheme. It required a large financial outlay but provided a good job on a decent permanent contract and good pay at the end of the training. Now the course requires a much bigger financial burden to be carried by the cadet, and, as the guys who were sold the 2003-2007 dream are finding out as they reach the end of training, the original deal is dead.
Things will hopefully improve in the industry in a wider sense at some point, but don't think those graduating in 2/3/4 years will be back on deals we saw in the the previous golden days of airline hiring. The latest debacle of a contract has set the bar even lower, and easyJet, and therefore other airlines will be in no rush to improve a brand new cadet's terms and conditions. The way of the future is clear, cadets on temporary, badly paid contracts. No job security and no idea where they will send you next.
I'm not saying this to pour salt in any wounds or show off how easy those of us who trained between 2003-7 had it, just to point out how quickly things have turned totally crap. I was lucky, along with the guys I trained with, the guys coming through now are sh
t out of luck and I have a massive amount of sympathy for them. There are plenty of pilots at ezy who are disgusted at the way cadets are treated and we are trying to get Balpa to find a way to do something that helps the guys affected by the recent changes to the way cadets are employed and paid.I never thought I'd say this but I really, really don't think this career is worth the hassle any more.
BitMoreRightRudder - thanks for summing up how things have changed so much in such a clear and authoritative manner.
Pop it onto the Private Forum as well if you feel inclined. Many in the company are hazy about the various bits of the CTC package and how much they've changed and apparently are going to change...
When I was offered a first airline job by Go-Fly in 2000 on B737 many at the time were aghast that there was no final salary pension, 900hrs a year was the only limit and we had no hats. Not a full decade later the package of a full contract from day one, full pay from day one of the free type rating, a simple 3 year bond and an annual £6k pay rise in years two and three (Y1 £26k, Y2£32k, Y38k + £6kpa sector pay) to reflect your growing experience seems like Nirvana.
Where the next decade takes us I genuinely shudder to think.
WWW
Pop it onto the Private Forum as well if you feel inclined. Many in the company are hazy about the various bits of the CTC package and how much they've changed and apparently are going to change...
When I was offered a first airline job by Go-Fly in 2000 on B737 many at the time were aghast that there was no final salary pension, 900hrs a year was the only limit and we had no hats. Not a full decade later the package of a full contract from day one, full pay from day one of the free type rating, a simple 3 year bond and an annual £6k pay rise in years two and three (Y1 £26k, Y2£32k, Y38k + £6kpa sector pay) to reflect your growing experience seems like Nirvana.
Where the next decade takes us I genuinely shudder to think.
WWW
Really good post there BitMoreRightRudder, I remember when applying to the CTC scheme back in early 2007 that first paragraph was how previous cadets had described it to me. Selection was totally down to ability, since all I had to do to get the entire amount was turn up and sign a bit of paper. The foundation course is now NZ$17k which at todays exchange rate is around £8k. Bit of rough maths, £69k bond, £8k foundation, £10k living, £28k type rating. I make that £115k, now add the interest. Lets be conservative and put £10k interest on that. £125k of secured debt, earning £20k a year... 
Happy Days
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So how many cadets are signing up for this new EJ contract?
Come on surely enough is enough.
Put a stop to this unite together and say no. Go out get a normal job for a while to sit it out until CTC and the airlines put a proper offer on the table. Getting 6 months of experience then sitting out for a while waiting for the next job is worth next to nothing, Believe me Ive been there. After sitting out for a year I really felt back at square one again.
Come on surely enough is enough.
Put a stop to this unite together and say no. Go out get a normal job for a while to sit it out until CTC and the airlines put a proper offer on the table. Getting 6 months of experience then sitting out for a while waiting for the next job is worth next to nothing, Believe me Ive been there. After sitting out for a year I really felt back at square one again.
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Just read on another thread regarding the new easy jet contract.
"too late, apparently 14 cadets started their TR today and some had literally a couple of hours to decide whether they were in or not".
Can any of these guys inform the rest of us actually how you are going to live on sweat FA, or am I missing something here or are you really that desperate?
"too late, apparently 14 cadets started their TR today and some had literally a couple of hours to decide whether they were in or not".
Can any of these guys inform the rest of us actually how you are going to live on sweat FA, or am I missing something here or are you really that desperate?
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Is it unbelievable? Is it really? Of course it isn't.
Once again, the greedy management at CTC are bowing to pressure from easyJet and are dancing happily all the way to the bank to buy themselves another porsche and/or Aston Martin. They don't give a sh!t about cadet welfare, all they care about it flogging the current hold pool off to the lowest bidder so that they can say they still have a '100%' placement record. Utter bo!!ocks.
Then, at the next CTC Roadshow (Question - which cadets are still openly promoting CTC at these events?! What is wrong with you?!), they can con yet more wide eyed kids into shelling out £125,000 to live like a tramp for the next 10 years of their life before finally declaring bankruptcy at the age of 35. No house, no money, no life... and you're now in your mid 40s.
It's ok, there's still 25 years left in you as a pilot I hear you say. You can still make something of your life you claim. Yeah, except that every job going is filled by similar idiots to a 25yr old you, so they very schemes that got you into this mess are the ones screwing you over as you try to rebuild your life.
Oh, now, what's this? You reach 45, having spent almost half your life trying to be this big glamourous airline pilot you saw in that wonderful roadshow 20 years ago and you due to cumulative stress, you lose your medical.
Hmmm, which way to Beachy Head? It's been a good life.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!
isn't.Once again, the greedy management at CTC are bowing to pressure from easyJet and are dancing happily all the way to the bank to buy themselves another porsche and/or Aston Martin. They don't give a sh!t about cadet welfare, all they care about it flogging the current hold pool off to the lowest bidder so that they can say they still have a '100%' placement record. Utter bo!!ocks.
Then, at the next CTC Roadshow (Question - which cadets are still openly promoting CTC at these events?! What is wrong with you?!), they can con yet more wide eyed kids into shelling out £125,000 to live like a tramp for the next 10 years of their life before finally declaring bankruptcy at the age of 35. No house, no money, no life... and you're now in your mid 40s.
It's ok, there's still 25 years left in you as a pilot I hear you say. You can still make something of your life you claim. Yeah, except that every job going is filled by similar idiots to a 25yr old you, so they very schemes that got you into this mess are the ones screwing you over as you try to rebuild your life.
Oh, now, what's this? You reach 45, having spent almost half your life trying to be this big glamourous airline pilot you saw in that wonderful roadshow 20 years ago and you due to cumulative stress, you lose your medical.
Hmmm, which way to Beachy Head? It's been a good life.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!
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That'll teach me to post after having a few beers! It was simply to say there are worse ways to earn some money! They've offered it before.
BMRR i'm very well mate, and echo your thoughts totally, it used to be a good deal when we went through, it's getting sh*tter by the minute now and a stand needs to be made. It also requires the current crop of cadets to really consider if they can accept this sort of treatment for the rest of their career, it's a slippery slope, it really is. How are you going to live on that deal??! Honestly....how? If you accept it as "the only game in town" and "the best we can hope for under the circumstances" you're playing into the hands of Cor and co.
I know it's not easy to make a stand, but you must remember as a collective group ( the holding pool and the guys in the training system ) you have CTC's collective nuts in a vice,they do not expect you to do anything other than what they tell you, they don't expect you to stand up for yourselves, try and force them to go back and get a better deal. It's in the best interests of CTC because as soon as it becomes public that CTC Wings cadets are going bankrupt en masse, recruitment to the cadet scheme dries up and they lose the cash flow that keeps the wheels turning.
From our side I strongly support any action that BALPA can command and look forward to seeing the outcome of the current discussions.
CTC and easyJet, you should be ashamed
WBV
BMRR i'm very well mate, and echo your thoughts totally, it used to be a good deal when we went through, it's getting sh*tter by the minute now and a stand needs to be made. It also requires the current crop of cadets to really consider if they can accept this sort of treatment for the rest of their career, it's a slippery slope, it really is. How are you going to live on that deal??! Honestly....how? If you accept it as "the only game in town" and "the best we can hope for under the circumstances" you're playing into the hands of Cor and co.
I know it's not easy to make a stand, but you must remember as a collective group ( the holding pool and the guys in the training system ) you have CTC's collective nuts in a vice,they do not expect you to do anything other than what they tell you, they don't expect you to stand up for yourselves, try and force them to go back and get a better deal. It's in the best interests of CTC because as soon as it becomes public that CTC Wings cadets are going bankrupt en masse, recruitment to the cadet scheme dries up and they lose the cash flow that keeps the wheels turning.
From our side I strongly support any action that BALPA can command and look forward to seeing the outcome of the current discussions.
CTC and easyJet, you should be
ashamedWBV
Last edited by Wing_Bound_Vortex; 15th Dec 2009 at 01:06.
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This is an intriguing new business strategy from Easyjet's perspective. By forcing their new recruits into bankruptcy they've effectively offloaded the airlines training costs onto a bank.
Clever stuff.
Of course, it won't work in the long term - but no airline anywhere in the world has a horizon beyond 6-12 months at the moment.
Clever stuff.
Of course, it won't work in the long term - but no airline anywhere in the world has a horizon beyond 6-12 months at the moment.
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As an ATP pilot in the hold pool since February 2008 (AQC) I can say that I will refuse these conditions. I wanted to be a pilot for a long time but there are limits to everything. They are perverting our dream way too much.
At some point you must ask yourself "Is it REALLY worth it (under those circumstances) ?". Where is the joy in the job where you can't survive properly, where you can't sleep because of stress of repayments and repossession ?
Now what can we do TOGETHER to try and brake the trend ?
Best regards,
FSP
PS: I did my training modular and managed to do it without owing money to anyone but I feel deeply for the guys out there and if we stick together we may be able to do something, or am I a dreamer ?
At some point you must ask yourself "Is it REALLY worth it (under those circumstances) ?". Where is the joy in the job where you can't survive properly, where you can't sleep because of stress of repayments and repossession ?
Now what can we do TOGETHER to try and brake the trend ?
Best regards,
FSP
PS: I did my training modular and managed to do it without owing money to anyone but I feel deeply for the guys out there and if we stick together we may be able to do something, or am I a dreamer ?
Last edited by FrenchScotPilot; 15th Dec 2009 at 06:51.