The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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V2, thankyou for your wise words and kind advice. Hopefully one day I'll work in a RHS with decent pay, good T&C's and positive future prospects; and plan B will be a distant memory. Maybe I'm too late for that dream to become real.
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Try paying off £1300 a month when you're earning £0 a month because you've been laid off with limited prospects.
It's not a laugh a minute.
"Sick to the very core". Yep
It's not a laugh a minute.
"Sick to the very core". Yep
VeeTwo - thanks for lending your weight to the fight.
Unfortunately, the Wannabe Zombie Army will pay no notice. Courses are full, roadshows are attended, enquiries are strong.
The law of supply and demand has been suspended. Demand has ceased, supply remains undiminished. You have to wonder how long it will take. I fear until the point where Airline Pilot is laughed at as being the same as Actor or Poet.
When they actually grasp the chalice they have quested for it will shatter to dust and choke them.
Unfortunately that chalice is my current job.
WWW
Unfortunately, the Wannabe Zombie Army will pay no notice. Courses are full, roadshows are attended, enquiries are strong.
The law of supply and demand has been suspended. Demand has ceased, supply remains undiminished. You have to wonder how long it will take. I fear until the point where Airline Pilot is laughed at as being the same as Actor or Poet.
When they actually grasp the chalice they have quested for it will shatter to dust and choke them.
Unfortunately that chalice is my current job.
WWW
Join Date: Jan 2006
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How can any of us fight?
The 'Wannabe Army' is willing to pay to do our jobs? Fact.
Their 'fat wallets' must appeal to an accountant like a Kebab to drunk! I just don't understand the wannabe logic.
The 'Wannabe Army' is willing to pay to do our jobs? Fact.
Their 'fat wallets' must appeal to an accountant like a Kebab to drunk! I just don't understand the wannabe logic.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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As an ex Cadet currently on the flexicrew contract in Lyon, I just thought I should correct an earlier statement of the pay rates and current Loan repayments. It seems that these figures are often deflated and/or inflated respectively usually to paint a more negative picture.
Yes we are currently working 12 days a month, however where £1600 per month came from I do not know. The daily rate is £210 which equates to £2520 per month, which after tax is exactly £1899.69. On top of that is sector pay (mine for this month came to £603) which gives £2502 after tax.
Now then, the last time I checked, the loan repayments were £875/mth. (a bit more if you took the extra for living expenses.) £2502 - 875 = £1627 = £375/wk or £53/day.
I fully agree, this is a fair bit away than some peoples expectations, but it is doable, and theres a slight difference between this and the quoted £500 per month leftover.
I'm not going to comment over the rights or wrongs of the flexi-crew contract, or whether or not I agree with it. There are plenty of people putting the world to rights already. However, I am firm believer that people should be correctly informed rather than being blinded by one sided spin that I find is becoming increasingly common on these forums, often supported by unfounded non-facts.
Yes we are currently working 12 days a month, however where £1600 per month came from I do not know. The daily rate is £210 which equates to £2520 per month, which after tax is exactly £1899.69. On top of that is sector pay (mine for this month came to £603) which gives £2502 after tax.
Now then, the last time I checked, the loan repayments were £875/mth. (a bit more if you took the extra for living expenses.) £2502 - 875 = £1627 = £375/wk or £53/day.
I fully agree, this is a fair bit away than some peoples expectations, but it is doable, and theres a slight difference between this and the quoted £500 per month leftover.
I'm not going to comment over the rights or wrongs of the flexi-crew contract, or whether or not I agree with it. There are plenty of people putting the world to rights already. However, I am firm believer that people should be correctly informed rather than being blinded by one sided spin that I find is becoming increasingly common on these forums, often supported by unfounded non-facts.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Loan repayments seem to vary a lot, I took the full unsecured loan, plus living expense, plus foundation course (as did most on my course), I'm coming up to a year since my planned TR date, I'm still in the pool, and my loan repayments (which are deferred as I cannot afford them with my non flying job), are about 1200 pounds per month.
Just some more facts to put out there.
Just some more facts to put out there.
his3dmw - thanks for clarifying the figures. I was told that there was no sector pay so I'm grateful to find out the truth is significantly better than my fag packet calculations. It seems likely that you didn't finance the whole cost of your training by means of a loan which is not uncommon.
I disagree with you that this forum is providing 'spin' on unfounded facts.
As your posting amply illustrates, any unfounded fact gets quashed by the heavy hand of truth within hours or days here. Furthermore, in a world where CTC marketing are spinning the line that this is an excellent time to sign up ahead of the upturn in 18 months, some counter spin is essential. What you get on these forums is insight and advice from disinterested experts who have many years of experience. This is somewhat unique. It contrasts with the cacophony of marketing noise, ignorance and out of date advice that generally assaults wannabes ears from all angles.
The Flexi Wings contract is better than nothing, is the only game in town for many and I hope it works out for you and your colleagues.
WWW
I disagree with you that this forum is providing 'spin' on unfounded facts.
As your posting amply illustrates, any unfounded fact gets quashed by the heavy hand of truth within hours or days here. Furthermore, in a world where CTC marketing are spinning the line that this is an excellent time to sign up ahead of the upturn in 18 months, some counter spin is essential. What you get on these forums is insight and advice from disinterested experts who have many years of experience. This is somewhat unique. It contrasts with the cacophony of marketing noise, ignorance and out of date advice that generally assaults wannabes ears from all angles.
The Flexi Wings contract is better than nothing, is the only game in town for many and I hope it works out for you and your colleagues.
WWW
Supercharged PPRuNer
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I’m not ex CTC, so have no axe to grind (apart from thinking that flexicrew might not be a very good thing for newly qualified cadets), but I have to take issue with the claim that now is a good time to train. It’s standard flying school spiel of course, and would be laughable if there weren’t quite so many young and impressionable wannabes ready to believe it.
If anyone reading this is seriously considering splashing out £70k on flying training (whether OAA, FTE, CTC or whoever) for God’s sake don’t. Not now. The job market is at a standstill - at best, and may get even worse by the end of this winter – and jobs (real jobs) for low-houred inexperienced CPLs will be extremely scarce for some time to come. And we are talking years rather than months. And, when the market does eventually improve, airlines will instinctively look to the most recently qualified candidates, as opposed to those who passed the CPL/IR some time ago and have just about kept current with a few hours here and there.
I could introduce you to several colleagues who are currently trying to service integrated training loans of £70k plus on cabin crew salaries. While keeping current. And they are relatively fortunate, in that they at least have airline jobs, even if it is the wrong side of the flight deck door.
Please, please, see the flying school claims for what they are – marketing drivel from companies that need bums on seats and cash in the bank in order to survive. They’ll tell you whatever you want to hear to ensure you part with your hard-earned – please don’t be taken in.
If anyone reading this is seriously considering splashing out £70k on flying training (whether OAA, FTE, CTC or whoever) for God’s sake don’t. Not now. The job market is at a standstill - at best, and may get even worse by the end of this winter – and jobs (real jobs) for low-houred inexperienced CPLs will be extremely scarce for some time to come. And we are talking years rather than months. And, when the market does eventually improve, airlines will instinctively look to the most recently qualified candidates, as opposed to those who passed the CPL/IR some time ago and have just about kept current with a few hours here and there.
I could introduce you to several colleagues who are currently trying to service integrated training loans of £70k plus on cabin crew salaries. While keeping current. And they are relatively fortunate, in that they at least have airline jobs, even if it is the wrong side of the flight deck door.
Please, please, see the flying school claims for what they are – marketing drivel from companies that need bums on seats and cash in the bank in order to survive. They’ll tell you whatever you want to hear to ensure you part with your hard-earned – please don’t be taken in.
WWW:
Just to clarify, the way it works (presuming it hasn't changed since last year) is that those on their 6 months "Advanced Training" - i.e. the last part of the Wings Course where you fly with easyJet or whoever for your £1k/month CTC "allowance" and are still contracted to the CTC course - do not receive sector pay.
Those who have completed that stage, and then have transferred to a FlexiCrew contract, get paid at the rates his3dmw mentioned, including sector pay.
Better than nothing, but not all of summer 2009's intake were given winter work (not sure what the proportion was but I gather it's not very many). Quite a few are out in the cold doing other work outside aviation, back living with parents etc. to make ends meet. Hardly the picture one would imagine in one's mind if one had just sat through a slick CTC presentation with lots of nice videos of Airbus flight decks and smiling F/Os.
I was told that there was no sector pay
Those who have completed that stage, and then have transferred to a FlexiCrew contract, get paid at the rates his3dmw mentioned, including sector pay.
Better than nothing, but not all of summer 2009's intake were given winter work (not sure what the proportion was but I gather it's not very many). Quite a few are out in the cold doing other work outside aviation, back living with parents etc. to make ends meet. Hardly the picture one would imagine in one's mind if one had just sat through a slick CTC presentation with lots of nice videos of Airbus flight decks and smiling F/Os.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Just to clarify further. The 6 months initial thing has changed slightly. Because you are no longer "guaranteed" work at the end of the the six months, you will now get sector pay, even in the first 6 months. I think there has been some sort of contract change (although I never signed, or have even seen said contract.)
WWW
Having lived through it for the past 3 years, I know full well the force of the CTC spin machine. I did indeed sit there 3 years ago being convinced that I would be employed by NASA 6 months after course completion. I disagree though that it is necessary to counter spin. In my opinion it is seldom useful, and in todays climate much of the facts are as damning and miserable as any spin. I'm not saying that the forums are all spin, and indeed some of the postings are extremely helpful, if not vital, and not just to wannabees, but there is an increasing amount of stuff that I know to be untrue that seems to be cropping up, non of this is helpful.
WWW
Having lived through it for the past 3 years, I know full well the force of the CTC spin machine. I did indeed sit there 3 years ago being convinced that I would be employed by NASA 6 months after course completion. I disagree though that it is necessary to counter spin. In my opinion it is seldom useful, and in todays climate much of the facts are as damning and miserable as any spin. I'm not saying that the forums are all spin, and indeed some of the postings are extremely helpful, if not vital, and not just to wannabees, but there is an increasing amount of stuff that I know to be untrue that seems to be cropping up, non of this is helpful.
I agree that all that is necessary is to put the plain facts, the true situation, in front of Wannabes. Its bleak enough and needs no embellishment.
The difficulty is that its often hard to establish the hard facts without the likes of yourself, being involved directly, contributing. Its also somewhat necessary to add spin in the form of changing:
Starting training now is unwise given market condition are poor, deteriorating and unlikely to improve for four or more years
into
You'd have to be a total lunatic to even think about training now in the worst aviation recession ever seen with experienced pilots lucky to flip burgers rather than be on the dole
The former is more accurate, the later more spun but to be effective the message has to be pumped out loudly, incessantly and flamboyantly if its ever to reach wannabe ears effectively.
WWW
The difficulty is that its often hard to establish the hard facts without the likes of yourself, being involved directly, contributing. Its also somewhat necessary to add spin in the form of changing:
Starting training now is unwise given market condition are poor, deteriorating and unlikely to improve for four or more years
into
You'd have to be a total lunatic to even think about training now in the worst aviation recession ever seen with experienced pilots lucky to flip burgers rather than be on the dole
The former is more accurate, the later more spun but to be effective the message has to be pumped out loudly, incessantly and flamboyantly if its ever to reach wannabe ears effectively.
WWW
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Sorry can I just interrupt and ask one question.. How likely is it that one would fail in the first stage of the application process i.e handing out the application form? and YES I agree that now is not a good time to start training and No I won't be starting my training now.
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A Tip to wannabe`s...
Pretend to have £70k. Add compound interest @ 2% above Bank of England rates, over 7 years. (approx repayments £1000 per month).
Now go find a job for real. Any Job! (Along with the the other 2 million in the country.)
When / If you`ve found a Job, and lived a little, paid your bills, if you can then afford to save £1K a month for the next 4/5 years, use what you have saved to finance your dream.
Because at the moment it is only a dream, and regardless of what anybody wants to pontificate about, (Green shoots, Bamboo shoots, Turkey shoots, they are Bu** sh****ers.) the Banks want real money back with real interest.
Otherwise read / listen to WWW. Not the spin of LW.
Its a hard old world out there, when your bloody skint!! forever thus.
PS
Now go find a job for real. Any Job! (Along with the the other 2 million in the country.)
When / If you`ve found a Job, and lived a little, paid your bills, if you can then afford to save £1K a month for the next 4/5 years, use what you have saved to finance your dream.
Because at the moment it is only a dream, and regardless of what anybody wants to pontificate about, (Green shoots, Bamboo shoots, Turkey shoots, they are Bu** sh****ers.) the Banks want real money back with real interest.
Otherwise read / listen to WWW. Not the spin of LW.
Its a hard old world out there, when your bloody skint!! forever thus.
PS
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I may have missed something but, no, he's flight deck. What has that got to do with anything though? I thought WBV was making the point that a CC job is better than a kick in the t1ts and its only for a few months till the cadets start flying again?
I am hearing rumblings about easyJet (note spelling!) wanting new start CTC cadets to pay for their type rating!! Is this true?!!?! It is hearsay only but worrying when taken in conjunction with the brookfield rumour. I am wondering if this rumour has been used to renegotiate with CTC to get a contract/pay for type rating arrangement aka brookfield.
If true this needs stopping! The figures mentioned were a total joke!
I am hearing rumblings about easyJet (note spelling!) wanting new start CTC cadets to pay for their type rating!! Is this true?!!?! It is hearsay only but worrying when taken in conjunction with the brookfield rumour. I am wondering if this rumour has been used to renegotiate with CTC to get a contract/pay for type rating arrangement aka brookfield.
If true this needs stopping! The figures mentioned were a total joke!
Last edited by one post only!; 13th Dec 2009 at 11:00.