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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 29th Nov 2009, 18:34
  #3401 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 184

I read your posts with interest. I can certainly sympathise with your position. Several years ago I was hunting around the big schools, FTE, CTC and Oxford trying to weigh the risks and the benefits of training. To be honest, even back then (late 2005) I felt that taking on the flight training loan and going for it was a huge huge risk - as did everyone else. It gave me sleepless nights. Not everyone was getting employment straight away (far from it), the threat of failing the CPL/IR or not being recommended by the school weighed heavily on most peoples minds. The holy grail of the first airline interview was still very elusive even during the relatively "bouyant" times of the recent past. Indeed, several of my course mates (course of 12) are still unemployed today, years after we finished training.

I make this point because that was then, those were the good times. Starting an integrated ATPL now and taking on that debt with the aviation industry in its current state of turmoil reallly is a terrible grass roots business decision. Strip out all the emotion involved (ie the burning desire to get flying as soon as humanly possible) and most level headed people would come to the same conclusion. Put the dream on hold for a while and do something else. Thats not the same as giving up on it. This is what my brother is doing who has recently graduated from uni and is desperate to fly. He's sensible enough to see that in 14 to 15 months time when he gets kicked out from an FTO with his licences and ratings, there will be no jobs going (or at least no jobs which provide an adaquate return on his investment of £70-80k). Its just my personal opinion, but I think paying that amount of money to train to only be rewarded with a holding pool number, or, if you're lucky, 6 months on £1000/month, is the most appalling deal. If that is the most you have to look forward to, how can now possibly be justified as the right time to start training?

On the flip side, it is easy for me to say this because I have a relatively secure RHS jet job. With that in mind I can tell you a couple of useful things. While it is a fantastic job (in terms of the actual flying)... after a couple of years of doing it, you really gotta believe that it does become a JOB. The adrenalin doesn't pump quite so readily anymore at 4am heading off to tenerife. The constant grind of shift work, missed social events and the company constantly trying to peck away at your terms and conditions becomes fatiguing in itself. I'm happy to do it because I'm being paid a good salary on a permanent contract. If I was on £1000/month with no benefits, working as hard as I work now, I would feel sick to my very core. I am paying back £1150/month and will be until around 2015...and even on a full SFO salary, its not like I'm throwing money around.

Ultimately as you quite rightly say, it is a personal decision. In many ways it is grossly unfair of me to sit here trying to dissuade you from chasing your dream as you have just as much right to it as I ever had. The only reason I chose to post is because I have met many many CTC cadets at work, all of whom are genuinely lovely guys and they are being totally screwed over. I fear the same fate awaits you.

Remember, just because you can "afford" to live as an unemployed pilot paying back the loan and stacking shelves...do you willingly want to put yourself in to that position? I just hope you realize that the 'Plan B' you speak of is effectively going to be your 'Plan A', in the short term at least.

Good luck whatever you decide.

veetwo is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 19:20
  #3402 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
A great post from veetwo, heed the advice.
TheBeak is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 19:52
  #3403 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
V2, thankyou for your wise words and kind advice. Hopefully one day I'll work in a RHS with decent pay, good T&C's and positive future prospects; and plan B will be a distant memory. Maybe I'm too late for that dream to become real.

One9iner is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 19:56
  #3404 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Age: 35
Posts: 365
Try paying off £1300 a month when you're earning £0 a month because you've been laid off with limited prospects.

It's not a laugh a minute.

"Sick to the very core". Yep
Tiger_ Moth is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 20:06
  #3405 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 17,427
VeeTwo - thanks for lending your weight to the fight.

Unfortunately, the Wannabe Zombie Army will pay no notice. Courses are full, roadshows are attended, enquiries are strong.

The law of supply and demand has been suspended. Demand has ceased, supply remains undiminished. You have to wonder how long it will take. I fear until the point where Airline Pilot is laughed at as being the same as Actor or Poet.

When they actually grasp the chalice they have quested for it will shatter to dust and choke them.

Unfortunately that chalice is my current job.

Wee Weasley Welshman is online now  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 20:20
  #3406 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
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One9iner is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 20:31
  #3407 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
How can any of us fight?

The 'Wannabe Army' is willing to pay to do our jobs? Fact.

Their 'fat wallets' must appeal to an accountant like a Kebab to drunk! I just don't understand the wannabe logic.
BigNumber is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2009, 23:35
  #3408 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Leeds
Age: 34
Posts: 26
As an ex Cadet currently on the flexicrew contract in Lyon, I just thought I should correct an earlier statement of the pay rates and current Loan repayments. It seems that these figures are often deflated and/or inflated respectively usually to paint a more negative picture.

Yes we are currently working 12 days a month, however where £1600 per month came from I do not know. The daily rate is £210 which equates to £2520 per month, which after tax is exactly £1899.69. On top of that is sector pay (mine for this month came to £603) which gives £2502 after tax.

Now then, the last time I checked, the loan repayments were £875/mth. (a bit more if you took the extra for living expenses.) £2502 - 875 = £1627 = £375/wk or £53/day.

I fully agree, this is a fair bit away than some peoples expectations, but it is doable, and theres a slight difference between this and the quoted £500 per month leftover.

I'm not going to comment over the rights or wrongs of the flexi-crew contract, or whether or not I agree with it. There are plenty of people putting the world to rights already. However, I am firm believer that people should be correctly informed rather than being blinded by one sided spin that I find is becoming increasingly common on these forums, often supported by unfounded non-facts.
his3dmw is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 05:50
  #3409 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: egll
Posts: 21
Loan repayments seem to vary a lot, I took the full unsecured loan, plus living expense, plus foundation course (as did most on my course), I'm coming up to a year since my planned TR date, I'm still in the pool, and my loan repayments (which are deferred as I cannot afford them with my non flying job), are about 1200 pounds per month.

Just some more facts to put out there.
oates76 is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 08:29
  #3410 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 17,427
his3dmw - thanks for clarifying the figures. I was told that there was no sector pay so I'm grateful to find out the truth is significantly better than my fag packet calculations. It seems likely that you didn't finance the whole cost of your training by means of a loan which is not uncommon.

I disagree with you that this forum is providing 'spin' on unfounded facts.

As your posting amply illustrates, any unfounded fact gets quashed by the heavy hand of truth within hours or days here. Furthermore, in a world where CTC marketing are spinning the line that this is an excellent time to sign up ahead of the upturn in 18 months, some counter spin is essential. What you get on these forums is insight and advice from disinterested experts who have many years of experience. This is somewhat unique. It contrasts with the cacophony of marketing noise, ignorance and out of date advice that generally assaults wannabes ears from all angles.

The Flexi Wings contract is better than nothing, is the only game in town for many and I hope it works out for you and your colleagues.

Wee Weasley Welshman is online now  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 10:17
  #3411 (permalink)  

Supercharged PPRuNer
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Location: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
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Iím not ex CTC, so have no axe to grind (apart from thinking that flexicrew might not be a very good thing for newly qualified cadets), but I have to take issue with the claim that now is a good time to train. Itís standard flying school spiel of course, and would be laughable if there werenít quite so many young and impressionable wannabes ready to believe it.

If anyone reading this is seriously considering splashing out £70k on flying training (whether OAA, FTE, CTC or whoever) for Godís sake donít. Not now. The job market is at a standstill - at best, and may get even worse by the end of this winter Ė and jobs (real jobs) for low-houred inexperienced CPLs will be extremely scarce for some time to come. And we are talking years rather than months. And, when the market does eventually improve, airlines will instinctively look to the most recently qualified candidates, as opposed to those who passed the CPL/IR some time ago and have just about kept current with a few hours here and there.

I could introduce you to several colleagues who are currently trying to service integrated training loans of £70k plus on cabin crew salaries. While keeping current. And they are relatively fortunate, in that they at least have airline jobs, even if it is the wrong side of the flight deck door.

Please, please, see the flying school claims for what they are Ė marketing drivel from companies that need bums on seats and cash in the bank in order to survive. Theyíll tell you whatever you want to hear to ensure you part with your hard-earned Ė please donít be taken in.
G SXTY is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 10:32
  #3412 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oop north
Posts: 1,042

I was told that there was no sector pay
Just to clarify, the way it works (presuming it hasn't changed since last year) is that those on their 6 months "Advanced Training" - i.e. the last part of the Wings Course where you fly with easyJet or whoever for your £1k/month CTC "allowance" and are still contracted to the CTC course - do not receive sector pay.

Those who have completed that stage, and then have transferred to a FlexiCrew contract, get paid at the rates his3dmw mentioned, including sector pay.

Better than nothing, but not all of summer 2009's intake were given winter work (not sure what the proportion was but I gather it's not very many). Quite a few are out in the cold doing other work outside aviation, back living with parents etc. to make ends meet. Hardly the picture one would imagine in one's mind if one had just sat through a slick CTC presentation with lots of nice videos of Airbus flight decks and smiling F/Os.
Zippy Monster is online now  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 11:40
  #3413 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Leeds
Age: 34
Posts: 26
Just to clarify further. The 6 months initial thing has changed slightly. Because you are no longer "guaranteed" work at the end of the the six months, you will now get sector pay, even in the first 6 months. I think there has been some sort of contract change (although I never signed, or have even seen said contract.)


Having lived through it for the past 3 years, I know full well the force of the CTC spin machine. I did indeed sit there 3 years ago being convinced that I would be employed by NASA 6 months after course completion. I disagree though that it is necessary to counter spin. In my opinion it is seldom useful, and in todays climate much of the facts are as damning and miserable as any spin. I'm not saying that the forums are all spin, and indeed some of the postings are extremely helpful, if not vital, and not just to wannabees, but there is an increasing amount of stuff that I know to be untrue that seems to be cropping up, non of this is helpful.
his3dmw is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 12:12
  #3414 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 17,427
I agree that all that is necessary is to put the plain facts, the true situation, in front of Wannabes. Its bleak enough and needs no embellishment.

The difficulty is that its often hard to establish the hard facts without the likes of yourself, being involved directly, contributing. Its also somewhat necessary to add spin in the form of changing:

Starting training now is unwise given market condition are poor, deteriorating and unlikely to improve for four or more years


You'd have to be a total lunatic to even think about training now in the worst aviation recession ever seen with experienced pilots lucky to flip burgers rather than be on the dole

The former is more accurate, the later more spun but to be effective the message has to be pumped out loudly, incessantly and flamboyantly if its ever to reach wannabe ears effectively.

Wee Weasley Welshman is online now  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 20:20
  #3415 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: maidstone
Age: 29
Posts: 19
Sorry can I just interrupt and ask one question.. How likely is it that one would fail in the first stage of the application process i.e handing out the application form? and YES I agree that now is not a good time to start training and No I won't be starting my training now.
Asianberry is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2009, 20:32
  #3416 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: deep south
Posts: 19
A Tip to wannabe`s...

Pretend to have £70k. Add compound interest @ 2% above Bank of England rates, over 7 years. (approx repayments £1000 per month).

Now go find a job for real. Any Job! (Along with the the other 2 million in the country.)

When / If you`ve found a Job, and lived a little, paid your bills, if you can then afford to save £1K a month for the next 4/5 years, use what you have saved to finance your dream.

Because at the moment it is only a dream, and regardless of what anybody wants to pontificate about, (Green shoots, Bamboo shoots, Turkey shoots, they are Bu** sh****ers.) the Banks want real money back with real interest.

Otherwise read / listen to WWW. Not the spin of LW.

Its a hard old world out there, when your bloody skint!! forever thus.

Portside is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2009, 17:31
  #3417 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 139
Expensive way to become Easyjet cabin crew
cjd_a320 is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2009, 22:10
  #3418 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Great post cdj... utter pointless waffle. Well done for bumping up the thread with 'words'.
One9iner is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2009, 22:26
  #3419 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South now...
Age: 38
Posts: 243
Actually it's "easyJet" cabin crew, and it's not for that long.....

Wing_Bound_Vortex is online now  
Old 12th Dec 2009, 23:02
  #3420 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
So WBV are you cabin crew???
One9iner is offline  

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