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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:54
  #2741 (permalink)  
Chilli Corneto
Posts: n/a
Hmm I agree Topcat. Now TheBeak, I have bitten my lip with this thread as I don't really want to start an internal arguement with essentially someone from the same CTC Family. However here are your more prominent points:
  1. You say those that have been successful have only got through because they have the finances to do it.
  2. You harp on singing the same tune over and over again. Don't do it as you will end up with £80k+ worth of debt with no way of paying it back when you graduate.
Well please consider my couter-arguement:
  1. Surely back in the day when you were lucky enough to get an unsecured loan, wouldn't CTC know that a higher proportion of applicants could secure funding for the course? Therefore they were more confident at the earlier stages that the majority of applicants wouldn't have a problem financially? Compared to nowadays where only a small proportion of applicants can source the required finances? Additionally a lot of applicants are weeded out of the selection process before they even sit in front of the selection team where they can be grilled about their financial status? Surely if CTC were so confident nowadays about the finance being unproblematic then a high percentage of people would actually get through to stage 3? That wasn't the case on my stage when I was doing stage 2.
  2. I appreciate your comments about being £80k+ in debt when you're out but please realise that this is not the case for some cadets. If you're justifying your arguement for not training now because of this much debt being accrued then I can happily say: "Thanks for the advice mate but I am not loaning anywhere near that amount of money to fund this" Thus your arguement for not doing this really doesn't apply to me as I am fortunate enough to have extra capital put aside to fund the remainder of the course. Yes I am bloody lucky but I am not going to apologise for my personal circumstances! It is also worth noting that I have a degree and career to fall back on should I need it that will comfortably pay back my loan repayments should that become necessary.
Without being rude I think you are making a mockery of the CTC's selection process as I can confidently say that not many (in my experience) even get through to the position where they can explain their financial status to CTC. Have CTC lowed their selection standards to compensate for this? Again not in my experience.

Not only that but you very close to insulting those that have been successful. I'm certainly not going to say sorry for fitting the bill that CTC are after. I agree we're not any better than any other cadets and it would be arrogant to say we're the cream of the crop. We're learning to be airline pilots and I don't consider myself to be any better than my mates who have gone through or are going through other FTO's. We all have the same ambition and goals and will take whatever path best suits our own individial circumstances. For me it isn't a huge financial risk so arguing I will be £80k in debt at the end of it does not wash. I won't be, fact!

I am fully aware of the current climate, economy and industry and although it is very dire it will pick up. By the time I am out it may be a lot better. It may be a lot worse but nobody can predict it. If they think they can please tell me lottery numbers tonight!

TheBeak I don't want to get your back up or start a petty fight but please try and play devils advocate! For some cadets, your arguements for not starting are really pretty irrelevant.

Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:57
  #2742 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northampton
Posts: 28
Please don't reply telling me I'm stupid and naive and uninformed and im going to destroy mine and everybody's lives if I progress with CTC. I'm not saying that what your saying is wrong and you have some vaild points and its very important anybody considering an FTO gets as much information as possible in order to make an informed decision, its why Im on this forum and its why others come on this forum. (However this is still a Rumour network not fact)

It has been boldly highlighted that its a VERY risky game at the moment, lets leave it at that and trust that everybody understands.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:59
  #2743 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Age: 28
Posts: 39
Exactly 99.

I wasn't even approached about my finance until after selection, so how on earth did it have any bearing on whether I got in or not? There were only 4 of us remaining after the maths/aptitude tests alone, which was hardly influenced by my financial background. 3 of us passed interviews, and only I passed the sim assessment. TheBeak, you have some very valuable and level-headed advice, but I have to completely refute your sugestion that financial status dictates who is offered a place. I could credit that if they queried it during selection, but they just don't. That's not me being arogant or exhibiting naivety, just outlining how they are approaching selection, from someone who has recently gone through the process. Also, there were people in far, far better financial status than me at selection who didn't get through.

Oh, and second that post, Chilli! I didn't see your post when I wrote mine! Spot on, mate.

Last edited by RobStob; 18th Apr 2009 at 11:14.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 12:03
  #2744 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Very well put Chilli Corneto.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 12:31
  #2745 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
99jolegg maybe you should be a in poilitics or journalism hat I actually said was:

The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding. That or maybe, just maybe they have seen some sense. Given that it is a business, I'll go with the money option
not just:

Originally Posted by TheBeak
The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding
And who said I trained with CTC? I have referenced my posts throughout to ALL FTOs. It isn't just CTC at all, it's all FTOs, FTE were probably the most salesy I dealt with of all as it happens. You go and enjoy your training and if CTC or any other FTO wont filter out the crap at least the banks will filter out some.

That's all, good luck, be positive and I hope it is all as great as you all 'believe' for all of our sakes.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 13:44
  #2746 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Someone needs to grow up
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 14:44
  #2747 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Originally Posted by TheBeak
99jolegg maybe you should be a in poilitics or journalism hat I actually said was:

Originally Posted by TheBeak
The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding. That or maybe, just maybe they have seen some sense. Given that it is a business, I'll go with the money option
Yes, you did...but the last part makes no sense to me so I left it out...

From what I can understand, you're saying that CTC have seen some sense, so have let him through to make some money? Either that or your second sentence just suggests you are sticking with your original statement. No idea what you're getting at.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 15:37
  #2748 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
Wow they have lowered the standard haven't they? I was saying OR maybe, JUST MAYBE they have seen some sense. i.e. They (being CTC) have seen some sense and aren't behaving like a business and are not just taking people for the sake of the money and are infact they are retaining some standards. I couldn't possibly comment on which option it is but by the sounds of you it is just some people don't have the money.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 20:05
  #2749 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 182
I love it when people resort to using "quotes" to defend themselves. Particularly when it is a quote of their own post!!! Tee hee!!

All I can add is something I have said before. CTC's success relies on people being successful and being satisfied. That applies to student and employer. To my knowledge both are currently, on the whole, pretty happy and have got what they paid for. They must be doing something right! That includes their selection process (which is basically stolen from BA without the psychometric testing).

It's bloody hard getting into CTC. Well done guys.

Bleak! I think you have probably made your point. Lets move on! Have you read your own posts by the way?!?! Very useful feature that read over peoples every post thing! Can you not see how people may react to your comments? Writing style is as important as the content! Much like body language counts for much more than what you say! In your posts its like you are waving your fists at people with smoke coming out your nostrils!!! Just some advice for you. Well done for opening peoples eyes thou. You are right to draw attention to the costs and the economy.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 20:30
  #2750 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: scotland
Age: 34
Posts: 16
future jobs

just a positive post for once- today at work (heathrow airport) I spoke to 2 ba captains,1 senior fo,and 4 fos, all seem to think its a good time to start training,the captains even said theyve seen this cycle before,and all regard ctc very highly,even coming frm oxford and cabair themselves,there exact words were "go for it".
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 20:52
  #2751 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: norwich
Age: 29
Posts: 3
Finally some positive news! Thanks Wirefly.

Thumbs up to Chilli as well
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 21:15
  #2752 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oop north
Posts: 1,021
Originally Posted by topcat970
Finally some positive news!
'Positive news' would be something like "BA starts recruiting again" or "easyJet take cadets on permanent contracts". Fair enough, the pilots to whom you refer are working in the industry and more than entitled to their opinion, which is exactly what this is - opinion. What makes their opinion any more valid than those who are saying "at the moment, most definitely do NOT go for it"?

Did they elaborate on why exactly they think it's a good time to start training, other than having seen this proverbial 'cycle' before?

Originally Posted by wirefly84
...what is the morale amongst pilots like at the moment in your experience?
Actually in my airline it's quite good. People are still flying, load factors are high, sales are good and people are just getting on with the job at hand.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 21:19
  #2753 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
I'm not actually against CTC at all and never have been. I didn't train with them either, so good on you for assuming. My point isn't again ANY FTOs infact, they are businesses and their purpose is ultimately to make money and they need to do what they need to do in order to achieve that. My problem is with any kind of training beyond a CPL any time soon and certainly any kind of integrated training. It's immensly frustrating when one is trying to give advice to people who in the main just wont take it. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

DanConer, at least someone has some sense i.e. you. This is nothing like ever before, the airline industry is so different to 1991 and 2001 etc when there were notable lulls in the industry. And once a pilot with an airline ones FTO is irrelevant, there is no huge excitement or great respect surrounding CTC graduates. Come back down to Earth.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 21:39
  #2754 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Oh dear, it all seems to have kicked off on here since I last logged on.

The level of immaturity and arrogance shown by many people on this thread is astounding, it's hardly a surprise us integrated cadets get such bad press. I see the reputable posters have long since vanished.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 22:41
  #2755 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northampton
Posts: 28

Beak, you are right CTC are a business, but it works both ways. CTC want to make money they arenít a charity and just enjoy helping people follow a dream, however, to make money they rely on a customer to buy their product, if their turning out poor quality products their customer retention is going to be poor. Which is why they do a selection to ensure their cadets are trainable and maximise the possibility that they will gain employment and ultimately meet their customers expectations, which is, a good quality pilot.

As a business they need to minimise their risk, CTC guarantee £30,000 of training costs if they take anybody on they will start having to pay out because people will be failing and have to drop out.

This is not marketing hype, I am not being blinded by sales jargon this is common sense and fact. I am not going into this blind and everybody is entitled to their opinion. People on here are not necessarily disagreeing with you, and a number of people have actually praised what your saying, myself included. Whatís annoying people is your approach to it, you come across aggressive.

As for the news about the BA pilots, How refreshing to come on here and read something that made me smile.

Last edited by mattyh1986; 18th Apr 2009 at 23:13.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 22:47
  #2756 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 694
Gents I suggest everyone calms down. The Beak may be a little direct, but the point is, be careful. Let's not be bashful, getting onto the CTC course is far from easy. All those who get to NZ have done well.

Think long and hard about what you are committing to, I think that is all that is being suggested. I'm 3 and a bit years into airline flying and I'm still knee deep in debt. To the tune of 44,000 quid (I borrowed 60k in 2004 at 2% above base, and Ive been paying back £1000 every month since the middle of 2006). And I've been flying and earning decent money since I finished at Nursling. It is a matter of luck, and good timing. If you have considered all this and still have the desire to go ahead with your training, then myself and every other ex-ctc person out there wishes you all the best.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 23:10
  #2757 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: scotland
Age: 34
Posts: 16
Calming down

Yes i agree with BMRR,everyone does indeed need to calm down slightly. DanConer however,with regard to the talk i had with various pilots, i was not trying to kid anyone, or myself infact.Nothing makes their opinion any better than those advising NOT to start training, however last time i checked this was a forum to share information to potential cadets, and those were the answers that i was given - and therefore the answeres i shared. I apoligise if doing so offended you! Please note i was not refering to this as 'positive news' , just throwing in some pilots 'opinions' as i thought they might be relavant on a forum such as this.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 23:22
  #2758 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Down South now...
Age: 38
Posts: 241
Couldn't agree more with BMRR, ( and he knows me well, how are you mate? ) if you've thought it all through and really, really know the risks you're taking on, then the best of luck. It isn't easy to get through selection nor get through the course as a whole, just throw yourself into it and see what happens the other side of training, that's all you can do if you're already in the process.

If you're thinking of starting training soon, in the hope of there being an upturn 2 years down the line, then i think you're being very brave, but again the best of luck, timing is at least half the battle of finding a job in this business. You may just be lucky. Or not. Can you accept that risk?

A final cautionary note. I know of at least one FO who is now paying for his type rating and line training at BMI this summer, total expenses up to that stage over £125,000 to get in that right seat....... So will they have a job offer after their contractual 3 months of line training is finished? Again i leave it for you to look at the market and figure out what the realistic chances are. Can you imagine the repayments on that sort of debt??

Don't ever let yourself get into that situation.

Good luck

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Old 19th Apr 2009, 04:08
  #2759 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 38
Posts: 14

Can anyone tell me what other budget Airlines offer the cadetship programmes which involve me heftying out 30 000 Euro,..any idea how many people that go through this process are not inducted into the company?? What other companys have similar programme besides Ryan Air?? Thanks
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 13:13
  #2760 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Leicester
Posts: 6
Heya guys,

I am currently going through the CTC process, having passed phase 3 last week and booked into phase 4. I'm extremely excited about possibly being able to start pilot training, having wanted to fly for the last 10 years, and finding out I cannot go military due to childhood asthma, I resigned myself that if unsuccessful with CTC I would have to find a different career.

My parents are extremely conscientious and need some firm reassurances if they are to help me secure a loan. They want to know that CTC are not a mickey mouse company and that neither the bank or company is about to go bust. Obviously, in all that they will want to know that I will be able to pay for my loans (so it will not come back and bite them).

As such I've trawled through several websites and found this thread in particular quite disturbing. As thebeak would say I've been looking for confirmation bias and not entirely taken into consideration that in 2 years time I could be looking at loan repayments and no job. I have several questions about reassurance over the company, but I suppose the primary question is should I be going through with CTC at all?

I understand that they have an excellent record at placing people. I was also told that they are partnering with new airlines. However, I have spoken with friend who's currently on his 6 month placement with EZY (having gone through CTC) and his explanation of the bond repayment differed considerably from Lee's presentation, and not for the better.

I appreciate those that suggest leaving the training for a few years until the market is more stable, but I see several problems with this. Firstly, would it not have seemed stable at the time of entry for my friend in EZY? Now he's having to resign to the fact that he will be lucky if he gets his bond back, and that he'll have to do agency work for the next few years. Secondly, during the presentation Lee stated they are raising the bond from 60,000 to 69,000 starting on the August course. I am potentially in the position to start in July (on the basis I pass phase 4), so is holding off a year (in a job where I am currently not paid much above basic salary) financially a good idea as I will undoubtly not recover the £9000 cost through working an extra year?

Sorry for the mammoth message. Its my first here on the forums and I seem to be in a position of many questions, and very few answers at the moment.
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