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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 17th Apr 2009, 15:06
  #2721 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oop north
Posts: 1,113
Some top stuff on here since last night - very entertaining reading after an early 4-sector slog.

What struck me is the reaction of people here to what they consider 'negativity'. The big problem is that things ARE now a lot more negative than they were a few years ago. People who have been through the course and contribute to this thread are not doing it just to irritate you and try to put you off training to fly. What would we have to achieve by doing that? I have a job and am happy. Uneasy about the industry and what the future holds, but generally happy. I'm not bothered whether you want to train or not, but what I AM bothered about is - having been there and done that - seeing wannabes fall hook, line and sinker for the FTO marketing nonsense and the bleating about a global shortage of airline pilots, etc etc. Please understand that the best people to learn about the course from, are people who have done it. People who can give you an objective, unbiased view of what it's like, what the job is like afterwards, and what it's like to shoulder that debt for 7 years (or longer) of your life. This is the kind of thing you don't hear about at dressed-up sales pitches and meet-and-greets. Understand that there is a difference between negativity and realism. Things ARE negative at the moment - that's the way it is. Please take this in the way that it's intended - not trying to preach or be patronising, just trying to be helpful. To those of you wise enough to do your research and think long and hard before committing to the course, like mattyh1986, well done - if you really feel it's for you, then do it, and I genuinely wish you the very best of luck with it.

Nothing will change my personal viewpoint that to risk your parents' home on training to enter a volatile industry that has thousands of experienced, qualified people out of work, during such a disastrous time for the economy, is a completely ludicrous thing to do. One of my father's colleagues has a son who started at one of the big integrated FTOs not too far back. He'd been taken in by the PR and marketing hype and remortgaged his house to enable his son to train. He is now in a constant state of worry at whether he'll still have a roof over his head in a couple of years' time once the repayments are due to start and his son can't even get a job stacking shelves. It's happening, and I don't know what it takes for some people to wake up and realise this. That 60k isn't just a number on a piece of paper that you can come back to another day. It's real money that you have to pay back, and a horrendously big chunk of real money at that. And when you find you can't, someone WILL come after you for whatever you've got it secured on. Think how you'd feel if you were helping your parents pack their car with whatever belongings they hadn't had repossessed to drive away from their lovely house for the last time after handing the keys to some faceless bank, with nowhere to go to. Is it a risk worth taking, for a "dream"? It's not like the old days when the money was unsecured, and believe me that burden is bad enough.

Originally Posted by 99jolegg
Is any of this really true? Wasn't the number of cadets "dumped" around 32? Around 20 odd from EZY and 11 odd from MON? Haven't 90% of them already been re-employed at Aer Lingus, Gulf Air and EZY Swiss?
22 from EZY - 15 of which were Wings Cadets, the rest Wings ATP. I believe it was 8 at Monarch, comprising 7 cadets and 1 ATP. Total 30. I don't know where you got this 90% figure from, but ONE went to Gulf Air, TWO went to EZY Switzerland and about 14, I believe, went to Aer Lingus. The rest either dropped off the radar or are going back to EZY this summer on FlexiCrew terms.

Last edited by Zippy Monster; 17th Apr 2009 at 15:10. Reason: Realised I can't do basic maths. 22+8=30!!
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Old 17th Apr 2009, 16:40
  #2722 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: scotland
Age: 35
Posts: 16

Zippy Monster - it is refreshing to hear the 'negative' aspects put in a concise respectable way,rather than patronising potential students. I totally take everything on board that you have said - and agree,after all you probably know best.Its good to hear this sort of advise rather than the 'you will ruin your lives' kind of talk.And i also agree it is not wise to risk your parents houses in such a volatile market - so a serious back up plan is essential.It just seem the 'rose tinted glasses' were being worn or 'starey eyed wannabees' were once actually the same people who come on this forum and literally insult others as they have come back down to earth in this ression after having 'been there and done that'.Yes you have the experience of the CTC hype and marketing machine first hand, but just give people the respect they deserve and try to use constructive critisism like Zippy Monster.It gets tireing reading the posts of frustrated unemployed pilots assuming every other potential trainee it a ****.

Zippy monster - what airline do you fly for if you dont mind me asking, and what is the morale amongst pilots like at the moment in your experience?
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Old 17th Apr 2009, 17:35
  #2723 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
People appear rude because it is like banging ones head against a brick wall, pre-pilot training posters come up with the same 'i'll give it my all and come through a winner' chat non stop. I and others are giving advice for free because I feel it is my moral obligation to prevent others from making what I certainly perceive as a monumental mistake - one that will change your life for the worst forever. Get real, it really will unless you or your parents are loaded. If you pay me, you'll get it with a smile. Someone on here, I can't remember who, said they were a teacher and could fall back on that as a career - there are schools closing down as well you know - certainly private ones and there will be, as a result, surplus teachers. It wont be easy getting a job doing that either soon.

Look, there is no rule to it all and some people will get through all of this frictionless but it will be through who they know and huge amounts of luck - NOT an FTO or being a 'TOP GUN' pilot. Most wont. Ultimately you must do what you feel you must do but I am 99% certain that you will ultimately regret it, and that is coming from someone who loves flying more than anybody. No one loves it more. It isn't the flying that is the problem, it's the fact that too many underselected people are training to do it because training is too much of a business. As a basis you should need 3 Bs at A levels or to have followed a self improver route instructing and gaining experience - not just get debt, buy a job and devalue the industry, ANYONE can do it at the moment and that's why it is all such a mess - And look, I notice no one has come back and said they have failed selection recently......
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Old 17th Apr 2009, 18:09
  #2724 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
and what is the morale amongst pilots like at the moment in your experience?
(Before I provide an opinion/answer - I am not yet a commercial pilot so take what I say with a pinch of salt)

Fair question; but I'm sure 'morale' is fairly low across the board at the moment, and I don't just mean within aviation. Across the economy, from manufacture, finance, logistics, services, retail etc... everyone, within every sector are being beaten around the head by the big 'R'. OK, in times of a downturn, certain people and organisations prosper, but not so for the majority. My current job, although not under direct threat within weeks, could be within months!? who knows! This may not be true if you work for a company doing well, who don't need to cut costs, or if you are self employed with a controlled, sustainable and profitable customer base and you can survive with a sudden cut in available credit.

Because of the big 'R' I'd put my money on 'morale' within the aviation community being low (even with the experienced ladies and gents who still have a job with one of the flagships). I have a family member and a few close friends who work for a number of the heathrow based outfits (I'm still working on it ) and morale is lower than it was for sure. There's uncertainty across the economy.

Having said all that... I'd love to hear personal opinions from guys and girls inside the industry that all us 'wannabe's' are so 'stupidly' trying to get into.

Good luck one and all
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Old 17th Apr 2009, 23:00
  #2725 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: London
Age: 32
Posts: 699
I've also been following this and the upturn thread for quite a while now. What the guys who have been through the CTC course and are now employed with an airline are saying rings very true. My loan is unsecured and I'm very worried about how on earth I'm going to start paying it. I started at CTC at 19 a year after A-Levels and as such have no real fall-back. I was naive and went into the course without a real plan to pay back the loan if a flying job was not coming fairly quickly. When I started there were rumblings that things were not all rosy, the run on northern rock had just taken place etc. If my loan was on my parents house, I would be sh**ing bricks about what on earth was going to happen. I also admit that only when it became clear about the length of time it may take for a job to come along did I appreciate how big a 65k loan starts to look. In 16 months there its gathered 3k of interest.

I'm not due to finish for a few months, but there are at least 50 people in front of me for type ratings. The absolute earliest I think I'll be doing a type rating is this time next year. Thats if I'm lucky! Yes, I am on the pessimistic side, I do also think there are signs and rumblings that perhaps we are somewhere near the bottom of the trough. The FTSE has lost half its value, how much further can it really go?

I do believe the latest 2 cp's to head to NZ have been down on numbers, whether this is down to the finance or anything else I don't know.

To the people that have yet to start training and considering it, I would like to put my hat into the ring in support of getting a PPL to see if you do enjoy it. If CTC is your goal having a PPL will not hold you back at all. Do not get into debt you cannot pay back and DO NOT secure a loan on someone else's house. I truly do believe this to be sound advice. Take it as you will.

Finally I would like to say that however bad things seem at the moment, eventually they will become better. I don't believe we'll see the expansion we've seen in previous years, but I'm sure they said that during the 80's recession and the great depression in the 30's!
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Old 17th Apr 2009, 23:50
  #2726 (permalink)  
Chilli Corneto
Posts: n/a
And look, I notice no one has come back and said they have failed selection recently......
Out of the 15 people I saw at the Stage 2/3 day, I only know of me and one other whom secured a place.
Old 18th Apr 2009, 00:26
  #2727 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: By the sea
Age: 38
Posts: 103
Only 10 in CP 71 and 11 in 72.... Only due to a lack of finance.
One more thing about the training itself. It is, on my own point of view, very steep. You'll be asked to take a massive amount of information in such a small amount of time.

With regards to the finance, be extremely careful. Even if I think CTC remains one of the best option, you won't get a salary until 2 YEARS from day one (and maybe more).

If I can give 2 advices here.

First, if you are young enough don't ruch into a FTO borrowing hudge amount of money. Be patient (I know it's hard), get some experience, save some money. I worked in the oil riggs in Canada, bloody hard job but saved enough to fund my training with CTC without borrowing one penny from any bank. My parents only gave me what is necessary to pay for my food here in NZ.
I'm pretty happy today not to have to worry about any loan re-payment.

And next, get a cabin crew job before with one of the partner. Try your best to meet people in charge of pilot recruitment and talk about CTC, get some information about what is a pilot typical day... And most of all, get some e-mail and keep in touch with these people on a regular basis.
After your training, they could be very very useful.

I have heard so much crap from some random people. Take your own personnal decision, be adult. If this is the job you want, you will get it.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 01:26
  #2728 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Age: 29
Posts: 39
Out of the 12 at my phase 2/3, I was the only one who got in. Whichever way you look at it, there aren't that many people getting places. CPs are becoming increasingly sparse. I was originally heading out on CP72 that left at the start of the month. It ended up with very few cadets on it indeed. Easily below 10
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 08:32
  #2729 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
I'm heading off to an open day at CTC at the end of June. Hopefully fully armed with a list of questions regarding the size, state and prospects of current and future hold pools. Over the past 6 months I've had discussions with a number of the other main FTO's who offer an integrated course so it will be interesting to hear CTC's take on things. I'll report back anything of interest, but I'm fairly aware of what to expect.

Any specific questions people feel would be of value to ask?

(other than the obvious regarding; industry / economy / recruitment / hold pools / cp intake / finance / post course support etc...)
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 08:39
  #2730 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166

Why do CTC continue to take on so many cadets, sending such large CPs to New Zealand, knowing full well that there won't be enough jobs for all of them at the end of their training?
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 09:04
  #2731 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Not sure what kind of response I'd get to that one but I'll try and rephrase and see what I get...
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 09:08
  #2732 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
Out of the 12 at my phase 2/3, I was the only one who got in. Whichever way you look at it, there aren't that many people getting places.
The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding. That or maybe, just maybe they have seen some sense. Given that it is a business, I'll go with the money option. RobStob, it's not that you are special, it's just that you are willing. Be careful mate, that's all I'll say, if you do do it, good luck.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 09:34
  #2733 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
TheBeak... you're last post was of a more gentle nature than your norm. Which I welcome! I appreciate that words from someone who has 'been there done that' are a great source of information, if not the best source! But as has been stated, be careful when claiming that if 'you risk this, risk that, you'll end up putting yourself and your family in hell for years to come.'

I don't disagree that it's naive to risk Mum and Dads hard earned home, savings, pension etc... on an FTO in current times, but understand; all people are different, coming from different backgrounds, different families, financial situations etc... We all have a similar objective, that's why we're here discussing CTC on PPRuNe! But everyone is different. Just be mindful that's all I ask mate. Certain people will take what they read on here as gospel - even though it's just bunch of personal opinions at the end of the day.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 09:35
  #2734 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: norwich
Age: 30
Posts: 3
TheBeak.... I've just got through selection and not at one stage did they ask about how you are going to finance it. They take everyone on their own merit and whether they believe they will succeed and finance never comes into it. So you can hardly say that they only go on people with a couple of quid spare to pay for their wages. I again was the only person (who i know of) who passed selection within my group and subsequent stages. Within my group there was a 26year old who had been in the RAF for 8 years as a navigator. He, i presume, must have had a fair amount of capital, especially as he owned his own house. So you saying that is a load of bull basically
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 09:52
  #2735 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
topcat, well done on getting through! When do you go out to NZ?

How many people were there in your group out of interest? Also, if you got through over an ex RAF guy, you must have a decent amount of PPL hours under your belt?

Regarding people's financial status; like the RAF chap you met, at 26 I 'own' my own place as well, or 50%, the other 50% is owned by a sibling, and strictly speaking Abbey National own it and I owe them 50% of the remaining debt!

But in the current climate, it doesn't account for a great deal if you've only been paying the mortgage off for a few years. Negative equity and all that jazz!
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 09:54
  #2736 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
One9iner, I am pleased it was more to your liking!

Topcat1970, it's sentences like:

So you saying that is a load of bull basically
That make me say there standards can't be that high. You haven't put together any kind of argument and it is people like you, in particular, who are so unwilling to take on board advice and who are so veherment in defence of CTC in this instance (or any other FTO) - possibly because you feel you have achieved something at this stage and are a cut above the rest (which you really aren't), like your fellow the RAF navigator. I doubt he does have much money after 8 years in the armed forces but anyway. As I have said a million times before, you go and do what you have to do and come back and tell us when you have been an FO for 6 months, have paid off NONE of your 85000 debt and have to go and work in a supermarket, if they'll take you after you have done all of this.

I warn you though, with a response like that, you of all people could be heading for a BIG shock - not because I feel you were particularly nasty in any way but because you seem so naive and so arrogant about having passed selection......the higher you go, the harder you fall, mate.
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:04
  #2737 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: norwich
Age: 30
Posts: 3
Ermm well not really. I was merely referring to the fact that it's bull that they only take you on your bank balance, which is what you were inferring, as they didn't ask me anything about finance throughout the whole selection. I can't really see anything bigheaded and arrogant about that....
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:23
  #2738 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
I was merely referring to the fact that it's bull that they only take you on your bank balance, which is what you were inferring

The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding
TheBeak - Topcat's got a point.....
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:33
  #2739 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 433
I second the above.

Originally Posted by TheBeak
The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding

Phase 1 is application form and some essay questions
Phase 2 is maths and aptitude
Phase 3 is team building and interview
Phase 4 is simulator assessment

If anybody completes those successfully, they're through. Whether they make it to NZ is another matter. They could well have to pull out because they can't arrange the finance / medical etc but it's nothing to do with CTC or their selection process...
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Old 18th Apr 2009, 10:49
  #2740 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northampton
Posts: 28

When I went there was 8 of us, 4 didn't get past stage 2, and only 2 of us (as far as I know) have got through to stage 4. At no point was finance discussed.

TopCat, some people will rubbish your achievement but you have jumped through hoops during CTC selection and it is not easy, hold your head up high and know it had nothing to do with what's in your wallet.

Thebeak, im afraid I get the feeling some of your posts have gone from being really informative and eye opening to very unhelpful and slightly aggressive.
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