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answer the question.
757manipulator you didn't answer my questions.
Did you pay for your initial training and your FI course?
Taken out of context or not what you wrote was offensive!!
Did you pay for your initial training and your FI course?
Taken out of context or not what you wrote was offensive!!
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Glennox,
You tell poeple to " shut up " ,you are getting "p.ssed of" with these posts and advice others not to " F.cking apply " and now you are offended ?
I suggest you tone it down a little
You tell poeple to " shut up " ,you are getting "p.ssed of" with these posts and advice others not to " F.cking apply " and now you are offended ?
I suggest you tone it down a little
Time for some home truths
This is for all those 200 hour guys who think that they deserve a seat in jet:
The reason most airlines wont touch you with a barge pole is because you are a huge financial risk to them and if you do get through Sim and line training, you are bloody dangerous until you have about 12 months on the aircraft.
As an airline we take all our low houred guys form CTC, They go through a comprehensive set of selection tests and should be able to complete the Sim training with out much trouble. Wrong the dropout rate is huge given where they come from. The reason FR make you pay is because if you drop out, which about 50% will, they wont have paid for any of your training. And if you get to line training, about another 25% will drop out, again their financial position is secure.
They are not doing it out of the kindness of their harts, they are doing it to protect their position and if they can make some money out of you along the way, all the better.
As for low hour guys in the RHS of a jet, they are bloody dangerous! I know I have been there and got the T-shirt. They are too far behind the aircraft in normal opps, that if an emergency did happen they would be worse than useless! And as for manual flying, forget it!
Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience gained will hold you in good stead for when the **** really hits the fan. The CLP/IR is a license to LEARN you will never have this period in your aviation career again I suggest you use it wisely. I went into the RHS with 200 hours and it was VERY hard work, now with 3500 hours I can see just how bad a pilot I was, and also on what I missed. While the RHS of a jet is the end goal, there are so many other parts to aviation that it would be a waste to spend your formative years trolling to Dalaman and back at 3AM.
The reason most airlines wont touch you with a barge pole is because you are a huge financial risk to them and if you do get through Sim and line training, you are bloody dangerous until you have about 12 months on the aircraft.
As an airline we take all our low houred guys form CTC, They go through a comprehensive set of selection tests and should be able to complete the Sim training with out much trouble. Wrong the dropout rate is huge given where they come from. The reason FR make you pay is because if you drop out, which about 50% will, they wont have paid for any of your training. And if you get to line training, about another 25% will drop out, again their financial position is secure.
They are not doing it out of the kindness of their harts, they are doing it to protect their position and if they can make some money out of you along the way, all the better.
As for low hour guys in the RHS of a jet, they are bloody dangerous! I know I have been there and got the T-shirt. They are too far behind the aircraft in normal opps, that if an emergency did happen they would be worse than useless! And as for manual flying, forget it!
Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience gained will hold you in good stead for when the **** really hits the fan. The CLP/IR is a license to LEARN you will never have this period in your aviation career again I suggest you use it wisely. I went into the RHS with 200 hours and it was VERY hard work, now with 3500 hours I can see just how bad a pilot I was, and also on what I missed. While the RHS of a jet is the end goal, there are so many other parts to aviation that it would be a waste to spend your formative years trolling to Dalaman and back at 3AM.
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apology.
hazehoe if you go back through what I've posted on this topic you'll find I did apologise for annoying anyone or causing offence, read the posts before you comment.
Look at post #66 if you don't believe me, here is the quote if you can't be bothered:
Look at post #66 if you don't believe me, here is the quote if you can't be bothered:
I am not trying to annoy anyone with my posts and if I offended anyone I apologise unreservedly.
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My, this is getting a little heated, isn't it?
To those of you shelling out for TRs and preparing to work for little or nothing, remember that what you get paid reflects what you think you are worth. The employer will pay no more than he can get away with. If you think you are worth nothing, then you will accept nothing and the employer will laugh his way to the bank.
A couple of years down the line, you will expect to get paid what you saw SFOs getting paid at your airline when you joined. After all, this is why you joined, right? But the employer now has you by the short and curlies. You are committed; you have loans to repay and you may be bonded as well. When the employer announces that, from 2008, FO's pay is going to be reduced by 20% for all those who joined in 2006 and later, where's your leverage? You just have to bite the bullet and accept it - you can't leave, you're too deeply in it to get out. You can't strike; your employer would sack you (you never joined the union...) and you'd be back at square one - and there are thousands of other wannabes crawling over each other to get your job. A few years further down the line, your employer offers you a command - but you've got to pay for the conversion training, you will have to pay any moving expenses, and the pay now offered is 20% below that of the guys a few years ahead of you. 'Sod that' you think, 'Time to go to Virgin or BA and get out of this particular pig sty'. You apply - and find that the terms you are offered are a great deal different - and a lot worse - from those offered to those who went before you. Why is that? Because the employers already know what you think you are worth - you've already proved it.
If you think this is an unlikely scenario, you're wrong. It's happened exactly like that in many airlines, here and abroad, over and over again. It's sometimes known as a 'B' scale, or a job realignment or whatever, but it comes as a result of large numbers of people accepting lower than previous remuneration for the initial jobs on the scale at times when jobs are scarce and applicants many. As a recent example, look at BA's new pilot contract with its pathetic pension arrangements. Market economics? Yes, but the market is subject to pressures from both employers and employees. You are not helpless victims of the market; your actions influence it.
Of course, if you had trodden the less expensive path of FI, TPs and so on, you'd be a few years older, a lot wiser, and a lot less in debt when you came to look for a jet job - and therefore the airline wouldn't have such a hold over you and you could apply more discretion in your choice of employer. But you'd have to ditch the 'I want it all and I want it now' attitude, and I doubt that many of you would do so until it's too late.
Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. they are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.
Scroggs
To those of you shelling out for TRs and preparing to work for little or nothing, remember that what you get paid reflects what you think you are worth. The employer will pay no more than he can get away with. If you think you are worth nothing, then you will accept nothing and the employer will laugh his way to the bank.
A couple of years down the line, you will expect to get paid what you saw SFOs getting paid at your airline when you joined. After all, this is why you joined, right? But the employer now has you by the short and curlies. You are committed; you have loans to repay and you may be bonded as well. When the employer announces that, from 2008, FO's pay is going to be reduced by 20% for all those who joined in 2006 and later, where's your leverage? You just have to bite the bullet and accept it - you can't leave, you're too deeply in it to get out. You can't strike; your employer would sack you (you never joined the union...) and you'd be back at square one - and there are thousands of other wannabes crawling over each other to get your job. A few years further down the line, your employer offers you a command - but you've got to pay for the conversion training, you will have to pay any moving expenses, and the pay now offered is 20% below that of the guys a few years ahead of you. 'Sod that' you think, 'Time to go to Virgin or BA and get out of this particular pig sty'. You apply - and find that the terms you are offered are a great deal different - and a lot worse - from those offered to those who went before you. Why is that? Because the employers already know what you think you are worth - you've already proved it.
If you think this is an unlikely scenario, you're wrong. It's happened exactly like that in many airlines, here and abroad, over and over again. It's sometimes known as a 'B' scale, or a job realignment or whatever, but it comes as a result of large numbers of people accepting lower than previous remuneration for the initial jobs on the scale at times when jobs are scarce and applicants many. As a recent example, look at BA's new pilot contract with its pathetic pension arrangements. Market economics? Yes, but the market is subject to pressures from both employers and employees. You are not helpless victims of the market; your actions influence it.
Of course, if you had trodden the less expensive path of FI, TPs and so on, you'd be a few years older, a lot wiser, and a lot less in debt when you came to look for a jet job - and therefore the airline wouldn't have such a hold over you and you could apply more discretion in your choice of employer. But you'd have to ditch the 'I want it all and I want it now' attitude, and I doubt that many of you would do so until it's too late.
Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. they are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.
Scroggs
I presume then Jonty that with all these ‘bloody dangerous’ low hours FOs on jets that accidents will be happening all the time, Ryanair planes will be falling out the sky….. of course not. And as for your suggestion that 50% will fail the type rating and 25% fail the line check well I find these figures as reliable as the Governments illegal immigration figures!! I would be surprised if the failure rate is higher than 10%.
‘Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience’
Well for a start as a low hours pilot air taxi is out of the question as single pilots ops isn’t a possibility and of course me being ‘bloody dangerous’ it d be certain death!!!
As for instructing unless you have an endless supply of cash it simply isn’t an option to fork out another £5-6000 to be employed in a job that will pay around £10,000 a year tops added to the fact another 500 hours in a 152 has debatable long term career benefits.
Gaining experience on a turboprop I agree would be ideal, but these seem even rarer than jet jobs!
Although the Ryanair option is far from perfect it still offers an excellent opportunity as we can see from the demand which also means they can still pick and choose those who show the best skills in the sim check.
That’s my pennies worth
‘Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience’
Well for a start as a low hours pilot air taxi is out of the question as single pilots ops isn’t a possibility and of course me being ‘bloody dangerous’ it d be certain death!!!
As for instructing unless you have an endless supply of cash it simply isn’t an option to fork out another £5-6000 to be employed in a job that will pay around £10,000 a year tops added to the fact another 500 hours in a 152 has debatable long term career benefits.
Gaining experience on a turboprop I agree would be ideal, but these seem even rarer than jet jobs!
Although the Ryanair option is far from perfect it still offers an excellent opportunity as we can see from the demand which also means they can still pick and choose those who show the best skills in the sim check.
That’s my pennies worth
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I've applied to Cityjet, "sorry we can't take your application further at this time", Loganair they don't care, no reply at all. BA Cityexpress, same things "sorry blah blah..."
Then I hear on pprune that some 300 hr TT guy gets interviewed with BA for example. I have almost 1500 TT of which over 800 is twin. What did I do exactly, spell first officer incorrectly on the application? Beg your pardon for not being brittish, you better believe I can outperform the low hour guy on the job. Truth be told, a company who'd go for a 300 guy over a 1500 guy over spelling errors to me is nuts.
So in my opinion, these companies have clearly told me what THEY think my worth is, and it's not much apparently.
Then what? Get JAA instructor ratings until I have 3000 TT instead? By then they're going to ask what's wrong with me for not getting a job yet = no interview. Plus the fact that 1500 Vs 3000 should make no difference, if you can't perform at 1500 then you probably can't perform at all.
So you tell me what next? I don't consider myself a low hour guy. Aer Arann require you to fund your rating I believe and I don't see this as being preferable to something like the Ryanair deal.
Then I hear on pprune that some 300 hr TT guy gets interviewed with BA for example. I have almost 1500 TT of which over 800 is twin. What did I do exactly, spell first officer incorrectly on the application? Beg your pardon for not being brittish, you better believe I can outperform the low hour guy on the job. Truth be told, a company who'd go for a 300 guy over a 1500 guy over spelling errors to me is nuts.
So in my opinion, these companies have clearly told me what THEY think my worth is, and it's not much apparently.
Then what? Get JAA instructor ratings until I have 3000 TT instead? By then they're going to ask what's wrong with me for not getting a job yet = no interview. Plus the fact that 1500 Vs 3000 should make no difference, if you can't perform at 1500 then you probably can't perform at all.
So you tell me what next? I don't consider myself a low hour guy. Aer Arann require you to fund your rating I believe and I don't see this as being preferable to something like the Ryanair deal.
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Very succinctly put Scroggs, that's perhaps the best summing up of the situation I have seen/heard to date.
Gnirren - I'm sorry to hear about your lack of employment, its people like yourself who are getting screwed over by those who pay for their ratings. I wish you good luck.
Thebeast - perhaps you should reserve your judgement on Jonty's comments until you have enough experience to make such a judgement. I agree with what he says - looking back on myself as a new low-time (but not paying for a rating) FO, I knew f**k-all and would have been a serious liability had anything gone badly wrong.
Gnirren - I'm sorry to hear about your lack of employment, its people like yourself who are getting screwed over by those who pay for their ratings. I wish you good luck.
Thebeast - perhaps you should reserve your judgement on Jonty's comments until you have enough experience to make such a judgement. I agree with what he says - looking back on myself as a new low-time (but not paying for a rating) FO, I knew f**k-all and would have been a serious liability had anything gone badly wrong.
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Originally Posted by scroggs
Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. they are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.
Scroggs
Scroggs
summing up, waht can we do? the one´s outside have no say. And the one´s Inside don´t have an easy way and or are too busy looking after their own problems.
Life is hard, and everything gets harder. Real state has also risen to prices out of reach for most young people, while real state owners grow wealthier and wealthier! housing is twice or Thrice as expensive now, and that is even more unfair than paying for a T/R. Who is to blame? the young people that pay whatever they are asked for? maybe yes, but what is one supposed to do, find a nice bridge and live under it?
not easy problems, wiht no easy solutions. Its easy to criticise, but alway try to get into the other people´s shoes!
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All the talk about 200HR guys...
I am a 1000TT hour pilot, most is instructing, and I get the same or no replies from the likes of CityJet, Loganair etc... NO.
I have decided to go for FR even though I cant afford, going to the bank again...
What is the big difference between Ryanair and CTC(ex. EasyJet), you pay CTC and then you bond yourself for 20.000£, no pay for six month (think you might get an allowance with some airlines) and once you start getting payed you get more or less the same pay as in Ryanair. Why the huge dismay towards Ryanair and not CTC?
I have decided to go for FR even though I cant afford, going to the bank again...
What is the big difference between Ryanair and CTC(ex. EasyJet), you pay CTC and then you bond yourself for 20.000£, no pay for six month (think you might get an allowance with some airlines) and once you start getting payed you get more or less the same pay as in Ryanair. Why the huge dismay towards Ryanair and not CTC?
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Enlighten me!
I do not know anything about easyJet's Cadet scheme, I chose to use EasyJet as an example of an airline recruiting from CTC, could just as well have been another one. And also let me make it clear that I do not see anything wrong with them, but I dont see the fundamental difference other than the selection process. At the end of the day the applicant is paying a lot of money to get the job, if successful.
I do not know anything about easyJet's Cadet scheme, I chose to use EasyJet as an example of an airline recruiting from CTC, could just as well have been another one. And also let me make it clear that I do not see anything wrong with them, but I dont see the fundamental difference other than the selection process. At the end of the day the applicant is paying a lot of money to get the job, if successful.
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I have a job; I'm not here to sell anyone's schemes. If you are a wannabe and are researching the market, you will be well advised to carefully look at all the schemes on offer. Some are considerably better thought out than others, and do not require any period with neither salary, allowances or living expenses. You may also find that, at the cost of a slightly reduced salary, your loan is repaid to you by some - and not by others.
Research is a wonderful tool.
Scroggs
Research is a wonderful tool.
Scroggs
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Did you pay for your initial training and your FI course?
.Therefore I am utterly uimpressed when foolish individuals think that a mountain of debt, 200hrs, and an attitude of "I'll do the job for next to nothing, and sod anyone elses' T & C's"
If my comments offend you Glennox I make no apology, I am verbalising in cleaner language than the vast majority of working crews would think in regards to the type of comments you have made previously.
Scroggs has summed it up rather accurately, ultimately you are cutting your own throats, your blind faith in the dreams you have been sold getting into this profession are no ones fault but your own "caveat emptor"
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Its an interesting argument saying that you get paid what you are worth as a new SO/FO.
That is saying that all your previous training is immaterial, and therefore a waste of money, if so thats not a fault of yours but the system!
Lets see I pay £50,000 for my training, £20,000 for my TR, but after that I'm only worth £171 per week!!!
Also with you that aircraft cannot legally take off, therefore how much would it cost Ryanair to ground one of its flights. Multiply that by the number of flights you do a year and you suddenly become invaluable to the airline!
There is a Dispatches Program on Monday night on the horror stories at Ryanair, lets hope that they incude the pilots and the rest of the world gets to see this expoitation.
The joke is not Ryanair, but on the authorities for allowing people to exploited in such a manner!
That is saying that all your previous training is immaterial, and therefore a waste of money, if so thats not a fault of yours but the system!
Lets see I pay £50,000 for my training, £20,000 for my TR, but after that I'm only worth £171 per week!!!
Also with you that aircraft cannot legally take off, therefore how much would it cost Ryanair to ground one of its flights. Multiply that by the number of flights you do a year and you suddenly become invaluable to the airline!
There is a Dispatches Program on Monday night on the horror stories at Ryanair, lets hope that they incude the pilots and the rest of the world gets to see this expoitation.
The joke is not Ryanair, but on the authorities for allowing people to exploited in such a manner!
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Stjuk, i don't consider you a wannabe,you are out in the system.Students fly solo under your responsebility etc. I came up the "ladder" this way and don't regret it. You have to hang in there and make contacts(yes i know it's difficult),find a job on a small twin and slowly climb "up".
If more poeple would go this "hard" route we would not be in the situation we are in right now.
Flight International is posting for FI positions in Croatia,with active intergration to the airlines after 600 hours and 2 years(maybe LH ,i don't know) to name a example. I reached the same point after 1500 hours of instructing and wonderd where all this was supposed to lead.In the end it worked out,got multi time through instructing, freight and than regional.It's a lot better to fly for a regional with good T&C's and become a TRI/TRE than to put up with the disrespectful(in lack of better words) treatment you get in places like FR. Don't believe for a second that the bad deal you get now will change in 2 years,i believe it has been explained by me and a lot of others where all this is going.My advise is to stick with it , you already took a big hurdle building those first 1000 hours! I don't believe the wannabe statement from Sroggs was for you but more in a general sense.You will find ,if you do your research , that he is trying to keep this whole debate balanced and comes on here to rebuke me and others if we get a little bit to carried away with this issue(FR, self funding etc), so " arrogance " might be a little misplaced.This arrogant B.sterd is probaly over the Atlantic with the blond girls in the back, it's not a fair world is it.
Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it.
If more poeple would go this "hard" route we would not be in the situation we are in right now.
Flight International is posting for FI positions in Croatia,with active intergration to the airlines after 600 hours and 2 years(maybe LH ,i don't know) to name a example. I reached the same point after 1500 hours of instructing and wonderd where all this was supposed to lead.In the end it worked out,got multi time through instructing, freight and than regional.It's a lot better to fly for a regional with good T&C's and become a TRI/TRE than to put up with the disrespectful(in lack of better words) treatment you get in places like FR. Don't believe for a second that the bad deal you get now will change in 2 years,i believe it has been explained by me and a lot of others where all this is going.My advise is to stick with it , you already took a big hurdle building those first 1000 hours! I don't believe the wannabe statement from Sroggs was for you but more in a general sense.You will find ,if you do your research , that he is trying to keep this whole debate balanced and comes on here to rebuke me and others if we get a little bit to carried away with this issue(FR, self funding etc), so " arrogance " might be a little misplaced.This arrogant B.sterd is probaly over the Atlantic with the blond girls in the back, it's not a fair world is it.
Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it.
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Quote:
"Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it."
What do you mean regret it? Hours on a 737 NG is not something you regret! They are valuable to progress your career. If you are talking about getting into large debt for it, then yes a valid point but if you are going to go down this road, you have to be fully aware of the consequences and make sure you are going to keep up the repayments etc... Don't be stupid enough to borrow money you can't pay back!
And before you all launch back at me, yes I know if SSTR schemes were not around nobody would be in this boat in the first place! Granted.
By the way, it's all very well slagging off the FR scheme, but what about the Astraeus scheme? I am not saying anything against it because I don't know enough to comment, but several of my colleagues had a very bad experience with them. Apparently you even pay for your line training, come on that is a worse deal! Yet nobody says a thing about this? Just an observation!
"Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it."
What do you mean regret it? Hours on a 737 NG is not something you regret! They are valuable to progress your career. If you are talking about getting into large debt for it, then yes a valid point but if you are going to go down this road, you have to be fully aware of the consequences and make sure you are going to keep up the repayments etc... Don't be stupid enough to borrow money you can't pay back!
And before you all launch back at me, yes I know if SSTR schemes were not around nobody would be in this boat in the first place! Granted.
By the way, it's all very well slagging off the FR scheme, but what about the Astraeus scheme? I am not saying anything against it because I don't know enough to comment, but several of my colleagues had a very bad experience with them. Apparently you even pay for your line training, come on that is a worse deal! Yet nobody says a thing about this? Just an observation!
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Nobody has discussed Astraeus, due to fact this thread subject is about Ryanair. Yes there are probably very valid points to be made, however the thread creep on here relates to comments made, rather than companies offering this kind of service.
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Busbar
I thought it was obvious,wait until you see what is on offer in a few years.Is it really so hard to understand that FR and others will shaft you again in the future,they already know you are willing to put up with anything they offer.It has nothing to do with the quality of hours on the 737 , it has been discussed in great lenght that your actions now will affect you and others later on,something i strongly believe.
Progress your career at what cost is the question ? i don't care where the money is coming from,the T&C's now and in the future is the issue here,not just the short term solution of buying a TR with or without a job!
I thought it was obvious,wait until you see what is on offer in a few years.Is it really so hard to understand that FR and others will shaft you again in the future,they already know you are willing to put up with anything they offer.It has nothing to do with the quality of hours on the 737 , it has been discussed in great lenght that your actions now will affect you and others later on,something i strongly believe.
Progress your career at what cost is the question ? i don't care where the money is coming from,the T&C's now and in the future is the issue here,not just the short term solution of buying a TR with or without a job!