Ryanair
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Prove it to me.
CamelhAir give me an example of an FO or Capt in FR competing with a low houred pilot for the same job. My post specifically referred to FR where FO's and Capt's with hours under their belts get well paid.
NG-dude you have a very valid point, if people stopped self funding their initial training the airlines would have to offer full or at least part sponsorship to people, problem solved.
As for being naive, well, if you mean fully understanding the market at the moment then I am very naive!!!
NG-dude you have a very valid point, if people stopped self funding their initial training the airlines would have to offer full or at least part sponsorship to people, problem solved.
As for being naive, well, if you mean fully understanding the market at the moment then I am very naive!!!
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CamelhAir give me an example of an FO or Capt in FR competing with a low houred pilot for the same job
Experienced FO's in other companies who might like to move to FR or Easy etc.
I could go on with examples all day, but can't really be bothered.
Don't you get it, other companies only have to offer a package slightly better than FR, to get people. This is where the rot. You can go on all day about moving apres Fr to better jobs, but your very actions are reducing the likelihood of those better jobs actually being much better. Wake up.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Originally Posted by CamelhAir
Guys looking to get out of FR and into the likes of the big charters, BA etc.
Experienced FO's in other companies who might like to move to FR or Easy etc.
I could go on with examples all day, but can't really be bothered.
Don't you get it, other companies only have to offer a package slightly better than FR, to get people. This is where the rot. You can go on all day about moving apres Fr to better jobs, but your very actions are reducing the likelihood of those better jobs actually being much better. Wake up.
Experienced FO's in other companies who might like to move to FR or Easy etc.
I could go on with examples all day, but can't really be bothered.
Don't you get it, other companies only have to offer a package slightly better than FR, to get people. This is where the rot. You can go on all day about moving apres Fr to better jobs, but your very actions are reducing the likelihood of those better jobs actually being much better. Wake up.
Perhaps we should hang around in the 'wings' for a few more years...perhaps shell out £6k for a FI rating so we can get a job earning £12k a year. Or mabey fly in africa and leave the family at home, because of the nature of contract work in africa. (ive been there looking and it aint to easy to get a job either).
All this to 'protect' the T&C of pilots already in the airlines, what other industry has this bizzare situation ?
I think perhaps you need to do some waking up yourself.
All the items you mention above seem to be the natural progression of your average pilot....what makes it so wrong ? Is the ambitious pilot or wannabe a danger to the T&C of the established pilot ?
mmmmm.....sorry I just dont get it
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Career Progression.
CamelhAir, pilots with experience were leaving the likes of FR and Easy to go to the larger carriers like BA & Virgin long before low houred pilots were paying for type ratings.
Anyway the larger more established carriers didn't give you a free TR either, they recouped a portion of the training costs through a bonding arrangement. FR doesn’t have a bond you so you are free to find another flying job whenever you like and with a 737NG TR on your licence that wouldn’t be too hard.
Don't you get it at all? Like Sky Goose I am frustrated with waiting around for a RHS and if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.
I personally know a number of ex-FR pilots who paid for TR back in 2002 who have moved on to airlines in the Middle East and Asia, the one common denominator with all of them is how glad they were to have gotten a RHS from FR initially.
Every industry is the same whether your an engineer, doctor, lawyer, barrister etc etc. All these people pay for the own training i.e. University Degree Courses. They all start off on a salary that is low in comparison to colleagues with more experience yet that hasn't had an adverse impact on future earnings for any of them, nor will low houred pilots paying for their 1st TR.
It's the way of the world, unfortunately aviation is more costly but if you don't like it do something else.
Anyway the larger more established carriers didn't give you a free TR either, they recouped a portion of the training costs through a bonding arrangement. FR doesn’t have a bond you so you are free to find another flying job whenever you like and with a 737NG TR on your licence that wouldn’t be too hard.
Don't you get it at all? Like Sky Goose I am frustrated with waiting around for a RHS and if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.
I personally know a number of ex-FR pilots who paid for TR back in 2002 who have moved on to airlines in the Middle East and Asia, the one common denominator with all of them is how glad they were to have gotten a RHS from FR initially.
Every industry is the same whether your an engineer, doctor, lawyer, barrister etc etc. All these people pay for the own training i.e. University Degree Courses. They all start off on a salary that is low in comparison to colleagues with more experience yet that hasn't had an adverse impact on future earnings for any of them, nor will low houred pilots paying for their 1st TR.
It's the way of the world, unfortunately aviation is more costly but if you don't like it do something else.
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CamelhAir, pilots with experience were leaving the likes of FR and Easy to go to the larger carriers like BA & Virgin long before low houred pilots were paying for type ratings.
Anyway the larger more established carriers didn't give you a free TR either, they recouped a portion of the training costs through a bonding arrangement. FR doesn’t have a bond you so you are free to find another flying job whenever you like and with a 737NG TR on your licence that wouldn’t be too hard
Don't you get it at all? Like Sky Goose I am frustrated with waiting around for a RHS and if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.
Every industry is the same whether your an engineer, doctor, lawyer, barrister etc etc. All these people pay for the own training i.e. University Degree Courses. They all start off on a salary that is low in comparison to colleagues with more experience yet that hasn't had an adverse impact on future earnings for any of them, nor will low houred pilots paying for their 1st TR.
The key thing in all of this is that you..and your idiotic work for nothing mates are destroying the T & C's for those of us already in the industry. You dont work here, I do, go away and grow up, better yet if you want to work for little or no pay..head off to China or India where your remuneration will fit in better with what you feel is adequate.
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Why don't you pay to fly people try and think about it like this.
It's your own future terms and conditions you are eroding just as much as anyone else's. Maybe if you guys did go out and do the hard yards, such as a couple of years instructing/taxi flights or whatever, when a job on a nice shiny jet comes around you might find the type rating is paid for and better still you get paid a proper wage from day one.
Everyone would then be better off including yourselves.
It's your own future terms and conditions you are eroding just as much as anyone else's. Maybe if you guys did go out and do the hard yards, such as a couple of years instructing/taxi flights or whatever, when a job on a nice shiny jet comes around you might find the type rating is paid for and better still you get paid a proper wage from day one.
Everyone would then be better off including yourselves.
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Sir 757manipulator
How can we be so thoughtless……
Let me inform the 6000 hopeful applicants that it’s a bad idea to join the FR SSTR scheme.
Id feel terrible if it affected your lifestyle in any way.
Mate…..its happening and like it or not…...people are going to do it…. I don’t agree with it either….but I aint getting no younger in a few years I’ll be in my mid thirties and becoming more unemployable by the day.
Instead of bashing wannabes (rather abusively) maybe you could give some realistic advice on getting on the job ladder.
Let me inform the 6000 hopeful applicants that it’s a bad idea to join the FR SSTR scheme.
Id feel terrible if it affected your lifestyle in any way.
Mate…..its happening and like it or not…...people are going to do it…. I don’t agree with it either….but I aint getting no younger in a few years I’ll be in my mid thirties and becoming more unemployable by the day.
Instead of bashing wannabes (rather abusively) maybe you could give some realistic advice on getting on the job ladder.
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Its not often that i feel its necessary to make a post, only a few in so many years. I cannot understand the impatience of wannabees coming out of these schools with 200 hours feeling that they have the god given right to jump into the RHS of a jet.
Your impatience is changing the terms and conditions of our industry and until you fly for an airline you will never appreciate this. It took me 6 years to get my first airline job and that was on a TP, before that I instructed, flew air taxis for next to nothing to increase my employability. It wasn't for 7 years that i got offered to fly in the RHS of a jet for a well established charter airline. I was offered a job, the TR was paid for, yes I was bonded for 2 years but that is totally acceptable. I am paid a good salary as a SFO and I believe that there are not enough people coming through the system with similar backgrounds. WHY IS THIS? As alot of you guys are prepared to solicit yourselves in the desperation of flying a jet.
If you love flying, go and instruct for a few years, fly air taxis and then apply to the Airlines. You may now be offered a job with better terms and conditions!
I do feel strongly about this, it is not that I feel that I have come from the best background and it makes a better calibre of pilot. I have struggled through very hard times (Septmeber 11) BUT I have never paid for a Type Rating and will never do so. You guys are ruining our industry and make no mistake about that!
Your impatience is changing the terms and conditions of our industry and until you fly for an airline you will never appreciate this. It took me 6 years to get my first airline job and that was on a TP, before that I instructed, flew air taxis for next to nothing to increase my employability. It wasn't for 7 years that i got offered to fly in the RHS of a jet for a well established charter airline. I was offered a job, the TR was paid for, yes I was bonded for 2 years but that is totally acceptable. I am paid a good salary as a SFO and I believe that there are not enough people coming through the system with similar backgrounds. WHY IS THIS? As alot of you guys are prepared to solicit yourselves in the desperation of flying a jet.
If you love flying, go and instruct for a few years, fly air taxis and then apply to the Airlines. You may now be offered a job with better terms and conditions!
I do feel strongly about this, it is not that I feel that I have come from the best background and it makes a better calibre of pilot. I have struggled through very hard times (Septmeber 11) BUT I have never paid for a Type Rating and will never do so. You guys are ruining our industry and make no mistake about that!
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Hi,
I think it's unfair to blame newly qualified pilots for the deterioration in the T&C's of of pilots in the low cost airlines.
Surely it is the publics' insatiable appetite for low cost travel which is the main reason. Market forces will always prevail in any industry. After studying hard for years to realise their dream to fly, it is only to be expected that newbies will do whatever it takes to make the dream a reality.
I think it's unfair to blame newly qualified pilots for the deterioration in the T&C's of of pilots in the low cost airlines.
Surely it is the publics' insatiable appetite for low cost travel which is the main reason. Market forces will always prevail in any industry. After studying hard for years to realise their dream to fly, it is only to be expected that newbies will do whatever it takes to make the dream a reality.
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757manip - go do your homework again. My wife is a solicitor and we had to pay postgrad lawschool fees ourselves, and then they work for 2 years on very lowpay. (called articles on about 10-12 grand a year). Barristers pay for law school and work UNPAID for 2 years. These days they have to pay the undergrad costs aswell.
Stop bloody whinging, or make sure that your arguments actually hold water.
Every industry that has good pay has high entry costs. Business school 101. A business / job with high pay has a high bar to entry.
I don't really think it matters how the ratings are paid for. either you pay up front, like ryanair, or the good old sponsership ,that you all seem to think is a great panacea, will come back and the 'free' training gets taken back as lower salarys for 10 years. I bet 10 years down the road your net position is exactly the same.
Stop bloody whinging, or make sure that your arguments actually hold water.
Every industry that has good pay has high entry costs. Business school 101. A business / job with high pay has a high bar to entry.
I don't really think it matters how the ratings are paid for. either you pay up front, like ryanair, or the good old sponsership ,that you all seem to think is a great panacea, will come back and the 'free' training gets taken back as lower salarys for 10 years. I bet 10 years down the road your net position is exactly the same.
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757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy well said gentlemen. Nail on the head stuff.
The argument that docs/lawyers etc get paid less at the beginning is horse$hit. They do because they are less use to anyone with little experience. On the other hand, an FO fulfils the same task, whether with 200 hours or 2000. Obviously the experienced guy is a whole lot more use to the skipper, but in terms of fulfilling the legal requirement to have an FO, either will suffice.
You people really are stupid if you consider FR's slave scheme even remotely similar to the traditional bonding method.
Finally, glennox,
, I would advise you to never express such a sentiment to anyone you ever fly with. Pathetic. Beyond belief. I sincerely hope you are not indicative of the calibre of the next lot of SS recruits. 
The argument that docs/lawyers etc get paid less at the beginning is horse$hit. They do because they are less use to anyone with little experience. On the other hand, an FO fulfils the same task, whether with 200 hours or 2000. Obviously the experienced guy is a whole lot more use to the skipper, but in terms of fulfilling the legal requirement to have an FO, either will suffice.
You people really are stupid if you consider FR's slave scheme even remotely similar to the traditional bonding method.
Finally, glennox,
if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.
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Camelhair, 757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy and all the foul mouthed guys who keep whinging about these young guys ruining your T&C's, just one question: What have YOU done to keep the T&C's the way they where 15 years ago... Camelhair you are so pathetic, you have not even been able to forbid your boss to supress drinking water to the flight deck
Show us how good you are, and after you have prouved more than a hollow fart you'll be able to speak up !!!
Show us how good you are, and after you have prouved more than a hollow fart you'll be able to speak up !!!
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757manip - go do your homework again. My wife is a solicitor and we had to pay postgrad lawschool fees ourselves, and then they work for 2 years on very lowpay. (called articles on about 10-12 grand a year). Barristers pay for law school and work UNPAID for 2 years. These days they have to pay the undergrad costs aswell.
Stop bloody whinging, or make sure that your arguments actually hold water.
Stop bloody whinging, or make sure that your arguments actually hold water.
So yes my arguement does hold water..(her classmates have had similar experiences)
Camelhair, 757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy and all the foul mouthed guys who keep whinging about these young guys ruining your T&C's, just one question: What have YOU done to keep the T&C's the way they where 15 years ago...
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Camelhair you are so pathetic, you have not even been able to forbid your boss to supress drinking water to the flight deck
Easy drivers have the right idea and I applaud wholeheartedly their efforts.
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Why anybody believes if you offer somebody to pay for your TR and work for free that they will give you free drinks and or food is really beyond me.Why do i believe that one is a result of the other.This is the joke of the day
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it seems to me that a good bunch of FR newbies join with 250-ish hours.FR is taking advantage of your experience level,and ask you what is to me,absolutely disgraceful....But it seems that with 250tt and be in the RHS of a 73 is unheard of in many countries.Don'ttry to go faster than the music,GA,Turboprop,small-medium jet etc...Don't get fooled by what is bright...just my 2 cents
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offensive.
757manipulator referring to people who are willing to join FR's SSTR scheme as
is highly offensive. I thought this forum was about information and different points of view. If you cannot make your point without resorting to insults like that then don't post replies.
I'm curious as to your status, did you pay for your initial training?
Did you pay for your FI course?
Captain Douglas IT IS NOT YOUR INDUSTRY. It is controlled by consumer choice and market forces. Did you pay for your initial training?
I'm also curious as to what both of you have done to maintain your T&C's. Don't blame newly qualified pilots for mistakes you've made in the past.
Pathetic, like a rat trying to crawl out of a bucket of ****e
I'm curious as to your status, did you pay for your initial training?
Did you pay for your FI course?
Captain Douglas IT IS NOT YOUR INDUSTRY. It is controlled by consumer choice and market forces. Did you pay for your initial training?
I'm also curious as to what both of you have done to maintain your T&C's. Don't blame newly qualified pilots for mistakes you've made in the past.
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Nice one Glennox, take me out of context.................
If you read what was highlighted, my tirade was directed towards your attitude of someone saying that you would pay for a TR and then sod the T & C's of those around you. In that sense you forfeit the right to preach to me about the rights and wrongs of what Ive said.
I wonder how you'd feel if you were next in line..and told you now had to work for free??
If you read what was highlighted, my tirade was directed towards your attitude of someone saying that you would pay for a TR and then sod the T & C's of those around you. In that sense you forfeit the right to preach to me about the rights and wrongs of what Ive said.
I wonder how you'd feel if you were next in line..and told you now had to work for free??
Originally Posted by Sky Goose
Dear Scroggs,
I appreciate you have vastly more expirence than most and want to keep the T&C for the industry at a certain level. I just wonder if you know what it is like to hope for anything resembeling a flying job for almost 30 months after your qualification.
So what do you suggest we do, boycott Ryanair?....yeah right..then the next bloke in line gets the job and 2 years down the line he has 1500 hours 737, and I have 245 piston. And FR still have a list of 5000 applicants, allot of good that did !
I have worked very hard to secure the funds for a TR and dont really appriciate being told I'm destroying the T&C's of the industry, as alennox said, if you dont like the way FR do things, apply elsewhere.
ps We do appreciate the value of our work.....and we would dearly like the chance to get a job, some experience and then we will be rewarded for it.
Dont forget, FR do pay their experienced pilots above industry standards !
I await the onslaught ! Be gentle mr scroggs.
I appreciate you have vastly more expirence than most and want to keep the T&C for the industry at a certain level. I just wonder if you know what it is like to hope for anything resembeling a flying job for almost 30 months after your qualification.
So what do you suggest we do, boycott Ryanair?....yeah right..then the next bloke in line gets the job and 2 years down the line he has 1500 hours 737, and I have 245 piston. And FR still have a list of 5000 applicants, allot of good that did !
I have worked very hard to secure the funds for a TR and dont really appriciate being told I'm destroying the T&C's of the industry, as alennox said, if you dont like the way FR do things, apply elsewhere.
ps We do appreciate the value of our work.....and we would dearly like the chance to get a job, some experience and then we will be rewarded for it.
Dont forget, FR do pay their experienced pilots above industry standards !
I await the onslaught ! Be gentle mr scroggs.
We have all been there, 200 hours 25 on a multi engine aircraft, and not a hope of a job. None of us fell into our current positions we all worked hard and had a bit of luck on our side, and so will you. We have all had to make sacrifices to pursue our dream, and so will you, but flying for nothing is not one of them.
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Found out yesterday that in November and December, Ryannair had a net loss of pilots for the first time. Tend to think that with a new aircraft arriving weekly, Ryannair need to do something.
BTW, found this out while down at the CAA having a jet rating added to my license that I didn't have to pay for, after instructing for a couple of years to get the hours and experience up...
BTW, found this out while down at the CAA having a jet rating added to my license that I didn't have to pay for, after instructing for a couple of years to get the hours and experience up...