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Loganair

Old 24th Jul 2006, 08:04
  #81 (permalink)  
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The mind boggles! No doubt there will be plenty of 'lucky' people taking Logan up on this very generous offer to newbies!
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Old 24th Jul 2006, 09:18
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If this is true, this is particularly sad news for all wannabes. One of the few fair starts in the airline business is disappearing.
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Old 31st Jul 2006, 10:08
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Hi,

i have seen an email reply to a friend who is chasing a job with Loganair. It stated there are very few if any positions for this year, subject to change fairly quickly as people move on.

Type rating to be paid for by the candidate and preference basically given to type rated people on the Saab.

Good luck, seems like a fun job with good experience once on the inside.
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Old 31st Jul 2006, 17:43
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Originally Posted by Alby Mangel
Hi,

i have seen an email reply to a friend who is chasing a job with Loganair. It stated there are very few if any positions for this year, subject to change fairly quickly as people move on.
By no means a definitive answer then.. sounds like there are no jobs, but if 'nough people get fed up there will be?
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Old 31st Jul 2006, 19:02
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The e-mail

I also got that e-mail, but it doesn't say that if you get the rating you get the job. It only states that if you have the Saab rating your more likely to get a job..

So your taking a chance if you get the rating and then end up with no job.


Flying mech
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Old 1st Aug 2006, 12:07
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Did the email say how much the type rating costs?
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 17:09
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FlightSafety SAAB 340 MCC Course

A little bit off the cost of ratings, however I noticed an advert in one of the GA magazines last month stating 'FlightSafety' at Farnborough were offering MCC courses on their Saab 340 sim, and 'successful candidates' would be offered an interview with Loganair.

Could be an example of a new feeder scheme to the recruitment department of Logan, combined with the ploy to get more people through the doors of Flightsafety's MCC course?!?!
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 18:34
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In my e-mail, they told me that the TRC costs about 12000 pound.
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 18:49
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with the demise of BACON just around the corner how long will it be before loganair starts expanding again.....only a matter of time me thinks,or maybe its time that MR TD from GSM thought about rebranding all those SAABS with that nice red logo he has on his 737 fleet.Watch this space...
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 23:06
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Guys as an ex employee of Loganair, I can understand where they are coming from and I'm kind of surprised it's taken this long for them to realise that if they want people to stay this might be a way of doing it.

Loganair have historically been an airline where you join - get the hours then leave, when I was employed we where nothing but a training organisation for low hours pilots and I am sure they still are, this as you can imagine is very expensive and can leave them short of crew quite quickly with very little notice.

If you look at aviation today you have to pay for everything -baggage drinks,food etc it was only a matter of time before airlines like loganair started to charge for type ratings(look at ryanair at least the loganair uniform is free........).

Saying all off the above I personally don't agree with paying for type ratings,passport renewals,uniforms & medicals etc but this is the world we now live in, one thing I will say though is that Loganair offer flying that is out of this world, if you can fly a twotter/saab in the environment/weather that they operate in you can fly anything - in fact flying an A340/B747 around the world is actually a bit boring after a while but it pays the bills!!!!!
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 12:00
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Cool

Hi all.

As an ex-Loganair SAAB/Twotter/BN2 man I agree with what Island Hopper says above. Another thing to consider is that the £12000 quoted does not cover the total sum of money invested for the SAAB type rating. I believe when I worked there, the total sum was approx £18,000 which included accomodation, food, expenses and wages during your type conversion etc.

I can't blame them for changing the scheme, it might actually filter out those wanabees who a: don't really want to live and work in Scotland, and b: have no intention of staying with Loganair beyond their ATPL issue (And before anyone asks, I was there for 5 years, ATPL issued in the first year). Every airline is suffering from similar problems, it's not just a Loganair issue, which is why the rules are changing. At the end of the day, no matter how romantically you want to look at things, Loganair is a business and as such, needs to make money. Reducing spiralling training costs in this manner was just the next logical step. Atleast this way the loan is paid back to you on a monthly basis. It's therefore only an issue if you decide to leave early. But then, that is your decision to make.

I enjoyed every minute of my time with Loganair. It's a great grounding for commercial, complex turbo-prop/EFIS/FMC and it certainly hones those all weather and decision-making skills! If you're serious about the company, don't mind working very hard and want to live in Scotland, then I don't see that you have a problem. If you want to get any job, anywhere and then leave to a more suitable location or jet job at first chance, then it'll cost you.

And to those of you who are dead 'against' paying for a type rating. Are you just going to sit back and remain unemployed whilst those who desperately want the work move in and take those jobs? I applaud you for your strength of character, but would remind you that it doesnt matter where in the world you are, there will always be someone ready and willing to pay for that rating, to get that job. Families, mortgages and food on the table will, for the majority always be the over-riding priority, rather than maintaining the noble notion that it just souldn't be done that way. I hate to sound patronising, but that is the way things are, which is why it will never go back to the good old days in terms of recruitment. Sorry.

Activating forward shields, ready for incoming attack!

ACA
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 13:11
  #92 (permalink)  
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It's a shame they're charging for TRs, but I understand where they're coming from. The people who genuinely want to fly for Loganair and live in Scotland (myself included) are those who lose out.
 
Old 5th Aug 2006, 15:02
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Originally Posted by Ambulance 'Charlie Alpha'
I hate to sound patronising, but that is the way things are, which is why it will never go back to the good old days in terms of recruitment. Sorry.
If you hate to sound patronising then dont make the comment. You are making the comment from the position of having 'been there done that, got the teaspoon! etc etc' so its a little off for you to criticise those that dont rightfully want to fork out for the TR in favour of accepting a proper training bond.

People now days are coming out with a 100k loan to pay back before they consider getting a mortgage so being responsible for feeding the family is one thing but people who irresponsibly take on more debt than they should are setting themselves up to be state funded when they retire. How is that being responsible in todays user pays society? Unfortunately, as you are probably going to be in the higher tax brackets of the future, you will probably have to pay more for their social and state care and dont be suprised it some of them are ex loganair pilots of tomorrow.

I heard on the radio that 100,000 people will go bankrupt this year. I bet there will be a few pilots amongst those and it is schemes like the new Loganair scheme that are part of the cause.

OSOP
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 15:39
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On speed on profile

You seem to miss the point. I have been there and done that and hence have learnt some valuable lessons along the way. Eight years after my first flying job, I am still paying back my flying loans. It was no different then to now in terms of being skint, getting very deep into debt and spending a decade or two to pay it all back. If at the time however, paying for a type rating was the only way in, then I would have done it. I needed the work. Whether that was responsible or not it didn't really matter to me. And that's the problem. You're never going to stop people with a dream to fly transport aircraft from spending money and getting debted upto the eyeballs to achieve their goals. You are never going to stop those who really want it from getting into more debt by paying for a rating, if that is the only way to get the job.

The difference here is that whether it's EasyJet or Loganair or whoever. The clock is not going to go backwards whilst newly qualified fATPLs continue to graduate out of the schools desperate to fly for a career. You see it on this site over and over again. People saying DON'T pay for type ratings. But guaranteed that someone has just handed over the money as this reply is posted.

If someone had offered me a job/career based on me signing a loan that was paid by said company over say 3 to 5 years, and as long as you didn't leave in that time it wouldn't really affect you and would leave you with thousands of hours on type and way up the seniority list, i'd have snapped their hand off to take it. Rather than grafting throught the old self-improver route and begging my way into where I am today.

Sure there are airlines out there that don't use this loan system yet, but for how long. Everyone is thinning down costs, trying to be leaner and meaner to meet targets and stay afloat. It's only a matter of time before they all conform.

ACA
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 15:52
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ACA

mmmm i think the whole point of this thread was the fact the logie were now actually charging for type ratings.Its no longer a standard loan or a bond.

let me put this simply.

You go out and find 13500 grand then you hand it over to logie,they dont pay you back any MORE,you then go of and get type rating with no formal job offer til you finish rating and PASS.You then come back and take out another loan for 6 grand which they pay back for you over 3 years ..provided you don leave that is..

apparantly they decided to do this cause some swedes aproached logie with a type rating they had just paid for themselves, and guess wot management took them on. an why not (saves the comapany money) and they're going to leave anyway

hehehe
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 16:22
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Incredible

Yep,

ACA, you're living in the past! YOU have to stump up 13.5K, which NOBODY pays back. In addition, YOU pay them 6k for base training, which they pay you back over 3 yrs just to keep you juiced in!!

All of that money for 550 hrs a year max if you're lucky enough to be based in Glasgow (400 hrs max in Abdn!!)

mmmm, let me think about that one!!!

T
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 16:26
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ambulance,

Under the old loganair scheme (which until recently used to be one of the best opportunities in the country), I would have jumped at the chance. The past scheme which was taking a bond that is in the form of a loan that is paid back + interest is completely reasonable and the pilot never sees the debt unless he jumps ship.

Buying a TR outright that is not paid back through a bonding scheme is not.

If Loganair upped the bond to £20K. It wouldnt make much difference to them but they would get more money if people jumped ship early and people wouldnt be in more debt, not to mention the extra outlay would encourage people to stay. This is not what they have chosen to do.

The current scheme as it stands now is, sadly, curently one of the worst in the country (behind easy in my opinion because easy pay you back all the TR costs + interest) and people should recognise that and vote with their feet. Like you say. Some wont and some depserate souls will take the chance, get more debt and get one more irresponsible step closer to bankruptcy.

Market forces or not, I think for a companies like logan, it is a step in the wrong direction and in 5 years time when they have zero training captains I think they will wish they hadnt made that step. In todays climate, everyone wants that shiny jet rating and job so who is going to want to hang around to train people that are just as disinterested in a long term turbo prop job as themselves?

OSOP
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 16:45
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on speed profile


i dnt think the trainers are disinterested in there jobs ,lets not get silly here,i have mates who do train at logie and most of them have been there for years and arn't leaving as you suggest.the quality of training and people at loganair is among some of the best in the industry,being a BA franchise it has to be.

maybe management will change ther minds about charging people for type ratings,i hope they do!
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 16:50
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OSOP

I certainly don't agree with schemes whereby you pay outright with no payback from the company. I have not and will not defend that approach. If I am 'in the past' with that information then I stand corrected. And if that is the way Loganair have gone from the previous system, then I am sure it will bite them in the ass eventually, especially as the SAAB340 is becoming obselete within the UK and Western Europe.

I don't however agree with the fact that everyone wants a shiney jet job. Sure the majority do, but I know many people who would happily stay with someone like Loganair, flying the highlands and Islands until they retire. Wanabees aren't all 21 year olds with the world at their feet, and Loganair have certainly taken on some of our more mature brethren over the last year or so.

With all that said, I'm still not going to bow to the 'don't pay for it' stance. Needs must and in my case my early career choices were made on the fact that I was rapidly running out of ready cash and food. Amazing though that a bank would still agree to lend you thousands in that situation isn't it!? Maybe that's where the problem lies? If the banks didn't readily lend the money for these courses to already indebted people, would we actually be having this conversation? Thread creep I know, but still an interesting topic.

ACA
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 19:18
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Originally Posted by Ambulance 'Charlie Alpha'
Amazing though that a bank would still agree to lend you thousands in that situation isn't it!? Maybe that's where the problem lies? If the banks didn't readily lend the money for these courses to already indebted people, would we actually be having this conversation? Thread creep I know, but still an interesting topic.
ACA
You are exactly right! When people are desperate, people will do anything for money and a job. I still think though that the companies that go this route are going to regret it. Its a shame really!

banter, with all due respect. the quality of training is good in most companies regardless of whether they are a BA franchise or not and I would expect Logans to be better than the average because of the types of weather and approaches that are regularly flown. That said BA connect has lost loads of trainers as has flybe and baconnect. there are many others that are losing them steadily and the experienced pool that once was is no longer. its only going to get worse as well unless the balance is readressed properly.

anyway... those that are desperate enough, go for it and good luck,you will need it!
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