Getting a little disillusioned
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Getting a little disillusioned
I may not be the only one but this is how I feel at the mo. Just read about the guys who have been told about their place on a ground sch with Emerald on the shorts fleet.(well done chaps) I'm a little disillusioned as I have been recommended,I've made calls etc and not a sniff. I know a recommendation is not a way in but it helps. I rang on thursday last week and was told there is no recruitment whatsoever. Why don't they just be honest and tell you to **** off we are not interested at least you would know where you stand.
Eastern's the same and their getting rid of the J32's. I just feel there are too many of us and its also a buyers market. People buying types and ******* it up for everyone else.
I've seen it on here people loaned and mortgaged to the limit no spare cash,strains on marriages etc. I admire these guys and girls. Where do you draw the line.
I've been trying the charter companies and see what openings they have. Again its proving difficult, not enough multi experience. It will cost you a fortune to get this. I was told by a charter Chief Pilot that by just doing another 20-30hrs aint worth it.
I want to fly at a different level but how long do I keep this job hunting up. I'm 33 earning less than 12000 a yr, cant really afford to do **** all and working with old men. So I've been thinking of joining the Police again,fantastic salary and prospects,its familiar ground,lots of social life meeting new people etc. and have the opportunity to continue with my instructing/examining career. Best of both worlds.
Anyway just my thoughts
Eastern's the same and their getting rid of the J32's. I just feel there are too many of us and its also a buyers market. People buying types and ******* it up for everyone else.
I've seen it on here people loaned and mortgaged to the limit no spare cash,strains on marriages etc. I admire these guys and girls. Where do you draw the line.
I've been trying the charter companies and see what openings they have. Again its proving difficult, not enough multi experience. It will cost you a fortune to get this. I was told by a charter Chief Pilot that by just doing another 20-30hrs aint worth it.
I want to fly at a different level but how long do I keep this job hunting up. I'm 33 earning less than 12000 a yr, cant really afford to do **** all and working with old men. So I've been thinking of joining the Police again,fantastic salary and prospects,its familiar ground,lots of social life meeting new people etc. and have the opportunity to continue with my instructing/examining career. Best of both worlds.
Anyway just my thoughts
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Ahh Emerald, now there's a story.
I went for interview at Emerald early summer 2001. It was the most informal interview I had been to (or since). I was literally in there for 5 mins. "You are just the sort of chap we are looking for. A man of your calibre will get command after the minimum 2 winters in the right seat." etc etc. They offered me a job immediately. I was relieved as my old employer had gone t*ts up some months previously. On the way home I rang the wife and my parents to tell them the news and we had a special dinner that night to celebrate. 
A week passed and nothing was heard from Emerald. I rang them to say that I had not received my written job offer. They said that they usually don't do that sort of thing but if I wanted one, then they would send one. This they did. I still have the letter. It says that I had been offered a position with Emerald. An exact date could not be given but my employment would start at the next training course, within the next few weeks.
A month or so passed and nothing was heard from Emerald so I rang them up again. They put me through to a management person. All I said was " Hello my name is ***** and I have a written job offer from you dated a couple of months ago....." and this guy freaked out. He said that the job offer is not legally binding and not to ring again and put the phone down on me. I tried ringing back but he was in meetings all day.
The next day I received a letter from him (which I also still have) stating that the written job offer I had received was not legally binding and not to contact them again.
And that was it. How do you explain to your family that the job you were offered is not going to happen? And for what reason?
Four and a half years have passed and I now fly biz jets, sometimes into bases that operate Emerald aircraft. I sometimes see the crews going out to start their night shifts in their filthy aircraft (how much does it cost to wash a plane just once in a while?), usually as I'm finishing for the day. I smile to myself and think that a***hole at Emerald did me a big favour. My career took a different route towards a job that I consider is the best in the world.
Thanks Emerald.
A week passed and nothing was heard from Emerald. I rang them to say that I had not received my written job offer. They said that they usually don't do that sort of thing but if I wanted one, then they would send one. This they did. I still have the letter. It says that I had been offered a position with Emerald. An exact date could not be given but my employment would start at the next training course, within the next few weeks.
A month or so passed and nothing was heard from Emerald so I rang them up again. They put me through to a management person. All I said was " Hello my name is ***** and I have a written job offer from you dated a couple of months ago....." and this guy freaked out. He said that the job offer is not legally binding and not to ring again and put the phone down on me. I tried ringing back but he was in meetings all day.
The next day I received a letter from him (which I also still have) stating that the written job offer I had received was not legally binding and not to contact them again.
And that was it. How do you explain to your family that the job you were offered is not going to happen? And for what reason?
Four and a half years have passed and I now fly biz jets, sometimes into bases that operate Emerald aircraft. I sometimes see the crews going out to start their night shifts in their filthy aircraft (how much does it cost to wash a plane just once in a while?), usually as I'm finishing for the day. I smile to myself and think that a***hole at Emerald did me a big favour. My career took a different route towards a job that I consider is the best in the world.
Thanks Emerald.
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Ive been having a few thoughts about it today and speaking with others and perhaps its a blessing in disguise that I haven't heard anything and theres something better for me. And at least I won't be shelling out 10k for something that may go horribly wrong.
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You're not the only one
You're not alone. I'm 36, married, 1 child, integrated with above 85% first time passes, passed all flight tests 1st time with a first series partial IR. I left a good career in IT for this and frankly if I didn't have IT to fall back on I wouldn't have managed to keep a roof over my wife and child.
I've a piece of advice for anyone contemplating leaving a good career mid-life to train as a pilot - don't. A simple glance in the back of Flight International will tell you why. Typically there will be one or two employers advertising for pilots - that's either Ryan Air paying £8000 in year 1 in return for your £80 000 investment (including type ratings) and perhaps Emirates or someone similar looking for guys with 4000 hrs heavy jet experience which you won't have. It is one of the best jobs in the world, which is why it has similar career prospects to other great careers like trying to make a living as an actor.
Now compare that with Computing or Computer weekly (my old field) - tons and tons of jobs paying £40-£100 000pa, tons of 3-6 month contracts paying £100 000 a year and more.
At the end of the day flying is fantastically enjoyable, it really is but being an unemployed pilot with a wife and child to support and big financial worries aint no fun at all. Earning a good salary in a dull office might not be great but its heaps better than being broke and losing everything. If the prospects were that good wouldn't HSBC and the alike all be delighted to carry on lending money at highly profitable interest rates to would be pilots - well they've pulled out now and you have to ask why that is. Note they still lend for law degrees etc which carry nothing like the same risk of unemployment.
Incidentally this is the so called 'boom time.' If you're about to shell out £60k for a course might I suggest you take a look at the job adverts in the back of the trade magazine Flight International for low hours pilots - there aren't any!! This makes getting one rather difficult.
Well, sorry to seem negative but its about time somebody injected some realism here. The number of low hours pilots far far outweighs the number of jobs - even now and rest assured if Bird flu takes off the airline industry will be in crisis. Three years ago I posted on this board from my air conditioned major plc. office and I didn't listen to people saying how hard it is to get a job, follow the dream and all that. Well, I really hope it happens for everyone that wants it but it will probably happen for only 30% of us. Right now I feel I'd have been better taking my £120 000 (£60k plus 2 years lost earnings) and blowing £50k on an Aston, £30k on a Cessna and the other £40k on a boat, holidays, hi-fi or just paying my mortgage off a little sooner.
Here's one other thing. The older guys like me seem to struggle to get jobs far more than the young chaps so if you're the wrong side of 32 think very very carefully indeed before embarking on this. You've got a lot to lose.
desk-pilot
I've a piece of advice for anyone contemplating leaving a good career mid-life to train as a pilot - don't. A simple glance in the back of Flight International will tell you why. Typically there will be one or two employers advertising for pilots - that's either Ryan Air paying £8000 in year 1 in return for your £80 000 investment (including type ratings) and perhaps Emirates or someone similar looking for guys with 4000 hrs heavy jet experience which you won't have. It is one of the best jobs in the world, which is why it has similar career prospects to other great careers like trying to make a living as an actor.
Now compare that with Computing or Computer weekly (my old field) - tons and tons of jobs paying £40-£100 000pa, tons of 3-6 month contracts paying £100 000 a year and more.
At the end of the day flying is fantastically enjoyable, it really is but being an unemployed pilot with a wife and child to support and big financial worries aint no fun at all. Earning a good salary in a dull office might not be great but its heaps better than being broke and losing everything. If the prospects were that good wouldn't HSBC and the alike all be delighted to carry on lending money at highly profitable interest rates to would be pilots - well they've pulled out now and you have to ask why that is. Note they still lend for law degrees etc which carry nothing like the same risk of unemployment.
Incidentally this is the so called 'boom time.' If you're about to shell out £60k for a course might I suggest you take a look at the job adverts in the back of the trade magazine Flight International for low hours pilots - there aren't any!! This makes getting one rather difficult.
Well, sorry to seem negative but its about time somebody injected some realism here. The number of low hours pilots far far outweighs the number of jobs - even now and rest assured if Bird flu takes off the airline industry will be in crisis. Three years ago I posted on this board from my air conditioned major plc. office and I didn't listen to people saying how hard it is to get a job, follow the dream and all that. Well, I really hope it happens for everyone that wants it but it will probably happen for only 30% of us. Right now I feel I'd have been better taking my £120 000 (£60k plus 2 years lost earnings) and blowing £50k on an Aston, £30k on a Cessna and the other £40k on a boat, holidays, hi-fi or just paying my mortgage off a little sooner.
Here's one other thing. The older guys like me seem to struggle to get jobs far more than the young chaps so if you're the wrong side of 32 think very very carefully indeed before embarking on this. You've got a lot to lose.
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Airpilot, many of us know how you feel. Financially, i'll be in debt for many years, and I still am looking for that first job, and like Desk-Pilot I too left a good job which meant security and good money in the hope that I will some day make it into the right hand seat.
I work part time jobs now as a flight instructor, door man, labourer etc. to make ends meet. I've seen this business ruin friendships, marraiges and families but i'm still determined to make it, even after several years.
It's really up to you where to draw the line, but don't put yourself into a bad situation that could leave you depressed. It's a horrible place that i've already been to already. Your still over 20+ years from retirment, If that means you have to work a different job for the next year or two then so be it, but don't completly give up everything after coming so far, keep your instructing going part time I say, it's a way of keeping your foot in the door.
S.C.
I work part time jobs now as a flight instructor, door man, labourer etc. to make ends meet. I've seen this business ruin friendships, marraiges and families but i'm still determined to make it, even after several years.
It's really up to you where to draw the line, but don't put yourself into a bad situation that could leave you depressed. It's a horrible place that i've already been to already. Your still over 20+ years from retirment, If that means you have to work a different job for the next year or two then so be it, but don't completly give up everything after coming so far, keep your instructing going part time I say, it's a way of keeping your foot in the door.
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Heed to Deskpilot's advice those of you who are married with kids, have a mortgage and are considering an integrated course. Heck even if you don’t have the responsibilities but still value the next 10 years of your life listen to him. Granted it’s your money and you can spend it how you wish but 2 years lost earnings for a 'designer brand' on your CV is not worth it, I’ll say it again, if you think the job guarantee factor is worth an extra 30-40k you need your heads re-screwed. If anyone can justify it with reference to figures please come forward. I'm about 10 years younger than you Deskpilot with a wife, kid, house, car, pet fish and a whole lot of other worries, and will be holding on to my job (going to part time) when I start my modular training. Luckily the school is very local. I too am being realistic and know that I will not find employment very quickly. I envisage sticking around (as a Network Admin) for at least another 2 years.
Last edited by Wannabe24; 24th Jan 2006 at 14:18.
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Your Competition!
I sympathise with you guys and Desk Pilot nice post = pherhaps a cautionary warning to all those gullable 20 year olds who are going to mortgage their parents home for an ıntegrated course. Not everybody goes to BA or walks in to a job.
The good news is there are many jobs and lots of movement in the UK. As I see it the problem is that compared with 10 years ago there are many guys\gals who now have the right to live and work in the UK = Welcome to JAR land. These Pilots are from countries were the aviation business is not so good, particularly Scandinavia, and they too have an even bigger over supply of wanabees per head of population. Most of them are well trained, have experiance, Type Ratings, smart, good English etc and the airlines in the UK will take them. In some respects they are at an advantage because they dont pay VAT\sales tax on training and get proper student loans from the Goverment for training. The airlines in the UK dont care were you get your experiance, if you got it and can pass the assesment your in. I can even give examples were a certain Agency based in the UK has recruited overseas pilots for jobs whilst guys\gals who are from the UK, trained there, with more experiance have not even got so much as a call back. Me thinks there is some tax dodge to be had to make more Cash?
Even our very own BALPA at the Oct Careers conference managed to bring on an Italian girl to explain to British Wannabes how she just landed her first Job with Flybe in the UK. I can only describe this as bad taste. Well done BALPA a great example of just how pathetically your representing those with low hrs residing and training in the UK looking for their first break. And before somebody posts blah, blah you brits need to learn another langauage etc then you can work in another country to.....we dont need to the jobs are in the UK.
Im not trying to have a go, many of the colleagues I fly with are from overseas, my friends, and are very talented. My point is to those in the UK looking for their first break, there are jobs but you have to understand what your competition is its good, its experianced and more of it than ever before from Europe, USA\Canada, Oz and NZ. Your going to have to think out of the BOX to compete with it and do something to make yourself stand out of the pilot pool like these guys\gals are............because of a lack of oppetunities in THEIR home land.
Good Luck.
The good news is there are many jobs and lots of movement in the UK. As I see it the problem is that compared with 10 years ago there are many guys\gals who now have the right to live and work in the UK = Welcome to JAR land. These Pilots are from countries were the aviation business is not so good, particularly Scandinavia, and they too have an even bigger over supply of wanabees per head of population. Most of them are well trained, have experiance, Type Ratings, smart, good English etc and the airlines in the UK will take them. In some respects they are at an advantage because they dont pay VAT\sales tax on training and get proper student loans from the Goverment for training. The airlines in the UK dont care were you get your experiance, if you got it and can pass the assesment your in. I can even give examples were a certain Agency based in the UK has recruited overseas pilots for jobs whilst guys\gals who are from the UK, trained there, with more experiance have not even got so much as a call back. Me thinks there is some tax dodge to be had to make more Cash?
Even our very own BALPA at the Oct Careers conference managed to bring on an Italian girl to explain to British Wannabes how she just landed her first Job with Flybe in the UK. I can only describe this as bad taste. Well done BALPA a great example of just how pathetically your representing those with low hrs residing and training in the UK looking for their first break. And before somebody posts blah, blah you brits need to learn another langauage etc then you can work in another country to.....we dont need to the jobs are in the UK.
Im not trying to have a go, many of the colleagues I fly with are from overseas, my friends, and are very talented. My point is to those in the UK looking for their first break, there are jobs but you have to understand what your competition is its good, its experianced and more of it than ever before from Europe, USA\Canada, Oz and NZ. Your going to have to think out of the BOX to compete with it and do something to make yourself stand out of the pilot pool like these guys\gals are............because of a lack of oppetunities in THEIR home land.
Good Luck.
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Airpilot,
Go back to the Police force and resume that career. You are in a very fortunate position (as is Desk Pilot) in that you've got something to fall back on. Instruct part time and continue looking for the right paid flying job.
There has to be a limit to a)time b)money c)opportunity cost d)personal cost
Don't put your life on hold.
Go back to the Police force and resume that career. You are in a very fortunate position (as is Desk Pilot) in that you've got something to fall back on. Instruct part time and continue looking for the right paid flying job.
There has to be a limit to a)time b)money c)opportunity cost d)personal cost
Don't put your life on hold.
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Many people go into aviation thinking perhaps it will solve all their problems. Im not sure even if they like aviation or like flying, some see it as a path away from the 9 till 5 rat race. It may be, but it comes at a price and has its own set of risks. Dont think aviation will be any easier in its demands than the career you have left, in many cases it will be worse!
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"If anyone can justify it with reference to figures please come forward".
Of course nobody can. How can anyone justify spending £££££ to just be in a position where you might be lucky to get an interview for the job you really want to do, (which probably pays considerably less than the job you are thinking of leaving)?
It's a risk - try a search on this forum for the phrase "there are no guarantees"
It's not about the money/justification. If it is, then I suggest that maybe your decision is actually a quite easy one.
If it was guaranteed for anyone to be able to walk into the RHS having spent a certain amount of £ on their training, I'd seriously reconsider getting on an aircraft again!
Of course nobody can. How can anyone justify spending £££££ to just be in a position where you might be lucky to get an interview for the job you really want to do, (which probably pays considerably less than the job you are thinking of leaving)?
It's a risk - try a search on this forum for the phrase "there are no guarantees"
It's not about the money/justification. If it is, then I suggest that maybe your decision is actually a quite easy one.
If it was guaranteed for anyone to be able to walk into the RHS having spent a certain amount of £ on their training, I'd seriously reconsider getting on an aircraft again!
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My 2 pence worth.
I also left a good job in engineering in 99' to start a modular training program in the US and UK. It has been very difficult, I have given up lots of other life oppertuneties and caused problems for my family (wife and one year old son).
I have been lucky in some respects as I have been able to returned to a well paid engineering job, but unfortunately it is not what I really want to do.
For me it almost a no brainer...I have no choice, I get butterflies in my stomach when I go to the flippin airport, catch a whiff of burnt JET-A1 or travel by air.
or watch the contarils over London. I have to do it...even if it takes another 2 years and cost me a TR...it has to be done...for the sake of my sanity
Stick with it boys...it will happen...if you want it bad enough
and man wont it be sweet , that first day in your new uniform, climbing into an aircraft and being paid to cruise the blue yonder.....the prize is simply too sweet
I have been lucky in some respects as I have been able to returned to a well paid engineering job, but unfortunately it is not what I really want to do.
For me it almost a no brainer...I have no choice, I get butterflies in my stomach when I go to the flippin airport, catch a whiff of burnt JET-A1 or travel by air.
or watch the contarils over London. I have to do it...even if it takes another 2 years and cost me a TR...it has to be done...for the sake of my sanity Stick with it boys...it will happen...if you want it bad enough
and man wont it be sweet
, that first day in your new uniform, climbing into an aircraft and being paid to cruise the blue yonder.....the prize is simply too sweet
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Cost Effective training?
The problem with the frozen 'Airline' pilots licence is that many people fondly believe that one can fly an airliner at the end of that training.
They cant.
Why? Much more training and expense is required after you leave Oxford or where ever to get the type rating and experience. Many people dont seem to get that point. When they do get the point their time and money has run out.
What is needed is a course that takes you into an airline job at course completion (ALL costs included) What is NOT needed is for the bulk of the 60,000 fee being used to fly old technology light aircraft round NDB holds for hours spending 6-7 pounds a minute when that same money could be used to train the pilot in a multicrew airliner simulator - its an ineffective use of the students or the sponsor airlines money to carry on as we are.
And that is what the new Sub-Part K of Lasors is about....
They cant.
Why? Much more training and expense is required after you leave Oxford or where ever to get the type rating and experience. Many people dont seem to get that point. When they do get the point their time and money has run out.
What is needed is a course that takes you into an airline job at course completion (ALL costs included) What is NOT needed is for the bulk of the 60,000 fee being used to fly old technology light aircraft round NDB holds for hours spending 6-7 pounds a minute when that same money could be used to train the pilot in a multicrew airliner simulator - its an ineffective use of the students or the sponsor airlines money to carry on as we are.
And that is what the new Sub-Part K of Lasors is about....
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Its not what you know, its who you know!
I am one of the few who used to post on here alot during my training days and i was even around on Spet11th when the forum crashed due to maximum overload (just before i started ATPLs). I rarely post nowadays but ithought i'd post this cos im a bit bored and i remember PP doing it years ago. Whilst its not the full story, it does give a little bit of hidden advice!
Enjoy
I entered the training market at just turned 20yrs (5.5yrs ago). Fairly well gen'd up character when it came to all things aviation related but not the brightest and not the most out going!
It came as a problem to me when people would often say that its all about who you know in this business, not only because i didn't know ANYONE who worked in the flying business, but because I am one of the quietest and most shy people there is! 6 Yrs ago the only time I ever saw pilots was when i went on holidays and that would make me want it even more!
During my PPL days it became apparent to me that this really WAS the case. I would all too often see my ex-instructors move onto other airlines because of who they knew. Ie- Instructors from Barton would always move onto Emerald because of some long tied links and some of the Instructors from Barton would also move onto Eastern because of some Links too! (now that's two of the main airlines you quoted in your thread)
It was blatantly obvious to me that jobs would not come my way unless i made the effort to fit in! And believe me, its not easy when your quiet. Its even harder to fit in at Barton because the place is so cliquey(if your face fits an all that)
So i stuck with it and continued with my training. Some 4 years later i didn't know any pilots and i hadn't networked very well. I knew people but not well enough to get their well wishes (if you know what i mean). Anyway, by this time i had just passed my CPL and was faced with the dilemma of doing the IR or the FI. I had no money. (I could have fallen back onto IT but it wouldn't have paid massive amounts and, lets face it, IT is the most boring and, at times, the most stressful job there is. There's nothing worse than a misbehaving computer!) So I decided to take a break. The break lasted about 3 weeks! I was looking on the job centre website and found a baggage handlers job at Manchester Airport. I had always fancied working at the airport and decided to look into it a bit further .It didn't pay much but it would be better for me in the long run because maybe I'll learn a bit more and also I could do a bit of networking.
After a brief (1hr) bit of research I managed to find all the numbers for all the handlers at Manchester Airport! So within 1 Hrs of finding a random advert I had managed to get a shed load of information. I did that by using my 'loaf'. I could have just sent CV's to em all but that's no use cos i want a job and i want it now! I phoned EVERY ONE of the companies and asked for a job!! Cheeky and very out of character but i didn't care.
Anyway, one of the baggage handlers jobs came off and during the interview it was mentioned that i may be suitable to be a dispatcher due to me having some flying experience! So within a few days of seeing the ad for a baggage handler I have now landed myself a job as a dispatcher! How's a bout that then?
I started as a dispatcher in APR04 and after having dispatched my first 757 it was decided that I need to be an airline pilot! Standing in that cockpit gave me the boost i needed. To have done the FI at that point would just not have been good enough for me. I was on a high!
So, I did the IR during the week and managed to convince my employer to let me work part time. I did sat 12hrs and Sun 12hrs. It was hard, very hard.
And hey! would you have guessed, during my time I even saw many an ex instructor from Barton flying the aircraft that i was dispatching! So the networking links must still be there! and what with Barton being so cliquey and my face probably not fitting, they didn't remember me.
During this time as a dispatcher i learned so much about everything there is possibly to know about operations of A/c. In fact to this day i feel it stands me in good stead for problems which may occur on turnarounds!
Not only did i learn alot, I met alot of people and nearly all of them pilots! Pilots who nice and pilots who were bad! The nice ones all offered advice and all gave you the boost to carry on.
Oct04- By now the IR had been and gone. I was an employable pilot working as a dispatcher earning 14k a year. Now thats not a good return for my investment!
Job Hunting time-
I did the usual and did ONE big CV mail but it amounted to jack diddley.It was the first and last bulk CV session I'll ever do. Fortunately for me there must have been 3-4 captains who were waiting for me to pass my IR so they could take my CV and put them on the right desks! They all flew different aircraft from the J32 right the way up to the 757 and i would have taken a job an any of em! I'd say i was in a very fortunate position to have people working on the inside for me. You see, I got here by getting myself known! Not by working in an IT Office job cos thats what pays the money but by sacrificing a few things and following my heart! Anyway, i booked myself on an MCC course for the Nov/Dec04 and during that time I managed to have 2 interviews. Both were with regional TP operators. I passed both the interviews but only by the skin of my teeth.
The first interview meant me travelling 300 miles only to get a letter saying that i needed a sim assessment but it wasn't going to happen any time soon!
The second interview meant me driving the length of England and back all in one day!(12 hrs drive) The long drive was done as a test as how much i wanted that job. I did it and had the informal interview in the Cafe of a regional airport. It was a success and I was then told I'd have to wait for a start date to come up and in that time i will have to get another 50hrs.
I waited two more months in the hope that either of the two airlines will offer me a start date.(still working as a dispatcher) And during that 2 months I had numerous jump seat rides that my new (networked) friends had arranged for me. The job offers never happened!
So I started an FI course But i didn't give up with the job hunting. I kept phoning and phoning the two airlines hoping something would come up.
Two weeks on in the FI course (Mar05) One of the capts told me a previously successful candidate had fallen by the way side in the sim and there may be a spare slot going for a future course. I phoned the CP of the first airline (who i was waiting for a sim check with) and he said nothing had changed no more recruiting
just sit and wait Two hrs later i got a call from his secretary saying can i go for a sim check the following week?
I went for the sim assessment and was offered the job 3 days later! APR05
I left the dispatchers job which i was sad to do but i still work with these people from time to time.
I left the FI course without any notice
No phone call,nothing!! I suppose they think im dead! Worse is they never phoned me to see what had happened! So, Im sorry Ravenair!
Been working as a pilot ever since and loving every minute of it. Sometimes its not all its cracked up to be and you have to take the rough with the smooth. In almost 1 yr i have learned alot about the airline world and its definitely not what it used to be!
Anyway, my point is this - If you don't make yourself known then you'll never get a job! Its not about sending 100CVs a week to 100 airlines and waiting for the call. You should make realistic choices, don't pick an airline that fly's 747's if you've only got 230hrs. Look hard and long at the airlines you want to work for. Pick 5 and stick at them. If you're low houred then focus yourself at the TP market. If you're sending CVs addressed to ‘the chief pilot’ because you don't know his name then you're not trying hard enough. There are ways and means of finding this information out. Follow up your CVs with a call. Be polite and say you're sorry to bother him/her. Forget about Emerald, it might be a start but its going to cost you 10k for something that isn't worth 10p in the modern world. So imagine what the bosses at Emerald must be like if they're willing to rip off their prospective employers? not nice people i tell thee!! I never applied to Emerald or Ryanair and i don't regret it. Neither did i ever contemplate buying my own TR.
FWIW, the pilots who I met during my time as a dispatcher are still good friends of mine and i keep in contact with them regularly. Often go for meals and stuff. So don't just go and meet a set person for one thing cos they'll see you a mile off and the CV’s they are supposed to give in for you will only end up in the bin!
Its the time of year when the handling agents will soon be recruiting so get yourself down there and have a bit of fun on the ramp. I would!
good Luck, Now is a good time to be looking for work but it may not be the best time to start a training course.
It is possible but its hard and if you give up then you're better out of the business!
Ps, It took me ages to write this so slate it and you'll get a good hiding!! Understand?
I am one of the few who used to post on here alot during my training days and i was even around on Spet11th when the forum crashed due to maximum overload (just before i started ATPLs). I rarely post nowadays but ithought i'd post this cos im a bit bored and i remember PP doing it years ago. Whilst its not the full story, it does give a little bit of hidden advice!
Enjoy
I entered the training market at just turned 20yrs (5.5yrs ago). Fairly well gen'd up character when it came to all things aviation related but not the brightest and not the most out going!
It came as a problem to me when people would often say that its all about who you know in this business, not only because i didn't know ANYONE who worked in the flying business, but because I am one of the quietest and most shy people there is! 6 Yrs ago the only time I ever saw pilots was when i went on holidays and that would make me want it even more!
During my PPL days it became apparent to me that this really WAS the case. I would all too often see my ex-instructors move onto other airlines because of who they knew. Ie- Instructors from Barton would always move onto Emerald because of some long tied links and some of the Instructors from Barton would also move onto Eastern because of some Links too! (now that's two of the main airlines you quoted in your thread)
It was blatantly obvious to me that jobs would not come my way unless i made the effort to fit in! And believe me, its not easy when your quiet. Its even harder to fit in at Barton because the place is so cliquey(if your face fits an all that)
So i stuck with it and continued with my training. Some 4 years later i didn't know any pilots and i hadn't networked very well. I knew people but not well enough to get their well wishes (if you know what i mean). Anyway, by this time i had just passed my CPL and was faced with the dilemma of doing the IR or the FI. I had no money. (I could have fallen back onto IT but it wouldn't have paid massive amounts and, lets face it, IT is the most boring and, at times, the most stressful job there is. There's nothing worse than a misbehaving computer!) So I decided to take a break. The break lasted about 3 weeks! I was looking on the job centre website and found a baggage handlers job at Manchester Airport. I had always fancied working at the airport and decided to look into it a bit further .It didn't pay much but it would be better for me in the long run because maybe I'll learn a bit more and also I could do a bit of networking.
After a brief (1hr) bit of research I managed to find all the numbers for all the handlers at Manchester Airport! So within 1 Hrs of finding a random advert I had managed to get a shed load of information. I did that by using my 'loaf'. I could have just sent CV's to em all but that's no use cos i want a job and i want it now! I phoned EVERY ONE of the companies and asked for a job!! Cheeky and very out of character but i didn't care.
Anyway, one of the baggage handlers jobs came off and during the interview it was mentioned that i may be suitable to be a dispatcher due to me having some flying experience! So within a few days of seeing the ad for a baggage handler I have now landed myself a job as a dispatcher! How's a bout that then?
I started as a dispatcher in APR04 and after having dispatched my first 757 it was decided that I need to be an airline pilot! Standing in that cockpit gave me the boost i needed. To have done the FI at that point would just not have been good enough for me. I was on a high!
So, I did the IR during the week and managed to convince my employer to let me work part time. I did sat 12hrs and Sun 12hrs. It was hard, very hard.
And hey! would you have guessed, during my time I even saw many an ex instructor from Barton flying the aircraft that i was dispatching! So the networking links must still be there! and what with Barton being so cliquey and my face probably not fitting, they didn't remember me.
During this time as a dispatcher i learned so much about everything there is possibly to know about operations of A/c. In fact to this day i feel it stands me in good stead for problems which may occur on turnarounds!
Not only did i learn alot, I met alot of people and nearly all of them pilots! Pilots who nice and pilots who were bad! The nice ones all offered advice and all gave you the boost to carry on.
Oct04- By now the IR had been and gone. I was an employable pilot working as a dispatcher earning 14k a year. Now thats not a good return for my investment!
Job Hunting time-
I did the usual and did ONE big CV mail but it amounted to jack diddley.It was the first and last bulk CV session I'll ever do. Fortunately for me there must have been 3-4 captains who were waiting for me to pass my IR so they could take my CV and put them on the right desks! They all flew different aircraft from the J32 right the way up to the 757 and i would have taken a job an any of em! I'd say i was in a very fortunate position to have people working on the inside for me. You see, I got here by getting myself known! Not by working in an IT Office job cos thats what pays the money but by sacrificing a few things and following my heart! Anyway, i booked myself on an MCC course for the Nov/Dec04 and during that time I managed to have 2 interviews. Both were with regional TP operators. I passed both the interviews but only by the skin of my teeth.
The first interview meant me travelling 300 miles only to get a letter saying that i needed a sim assessment but it wasn't going to happen any time soon!
The second interview meant me driving the length of England and back all in one day!(12 hrs drive) The long drive was done as a test as how much i wanted that job. I did it and had the informal interview in the Cafe of a regional airport. It was a success and I was then told I'd have to wait for a start date to come up and in that time i will have to get another 50hrs.
I waited two more months in the hope that either of the two airlines will offer me a start date.(still working as a dispatcher) And during that 2 months I had numerous jump seat rides that my new (networked) friends had arranged for me. The job offers never happened!
So I started an FI course But i didn't give up with the job hunting. I kept phoning and phoning the two airlines hoping something would come up.Two weeks on in the FI course (Mar05) One of the capts told me a previously successful candidate had fallen by the way side in the sim and there may be a spare slot going for a future course. I phoned the CP of the first airline (who i was waiting for a sim check with) and he said nothing had changed
no more recruiting just sit and wait Two hrs later i got a call from his secretary saying can i go for a sim check the following week? I went for the sim assessment and was offered the job 3 days later! APR05
I left the dispatchers job which i was sad to do but i still work with these people from time to time.
I left the FI course without any notice
No phone call,nothing!! I suppose they think im dead! Worse is they never phoned me to see what had happened! So, Im sorry Ravenair!Been working as a pilot ever since and loving every minute of it. Sometimes its not all its cracked up to be and you have to take the rough with the smooth. In almost 1 yr i have learned alot about the airline world and its definitely not what it used to be!
Anyway, my point is this - If you don't make yourself known then you'll never get a job! Its not about sending 100CVs a week to 100 airlines and waiting for the call. You should make realistic choices, don't pick an airline that fly's 747's if you've only got 230hrs. Look hard and long at the airlines you want to work for. Pick 5 and stick at them. If you're low houred then focus yourself at the TP market. If you're sending CVs addressed to ‘the chief pilot’ because you don't know his name then you're not trying hard enough. There are ways and means of finding this information out. Follow up your CVs with a call. Be polite and say you're sorry to bother him/her. Forget about Emerald, it might be a start but its going to cost you 10k for something that isn't worth 10p in the modern world. So imagine what the bosses at Emerald must be like if they're willing to rip off their prospective employers? not nice people i tell thee!! I never applied to Emerald or Ryanair and i don't regret it. Neither did i ever contemplate buying my own TR.
FWIW, the pilots who I met during my time as a dispatcher are still good friends of mine and i keep in contact with them regularly. Often go for meals and stuff. So don't just go and meet a set person for one thing cos they'll see you a mile off and the CV’s they are supposed to give in for you will only end up in the bin!
Its the time of year when the handling agents will soon be recruiting so get yourself down there and have a bit of fun on the ramp. I would!
good Luck, Now is a good time to be looking for work but it may not be the best time to start a training course.
It is possible but its hard and if you give up then you're better out of the business!
Ps, It took me ages to write this so slate it and you'll get a good hiding!! Understand?
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry 76
In some respects they are at an advantage because they dont pay VAT\sales tax on training and get proper student loans from the Goverment for training.
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@Fellow Aviator
Actually, I work with 5 Danish, 4 Swedish, 3 Norwegians. Thats where i get my information.
Maybe I came accross as ranting. However the point I was trying to get accross to guys\gals in the UK there are jobs. As per Lonchops post
maybe those who cant get jobs they are simply going about it the wrong way and need another plan.
If someone can come from overseas and convince an airline in the UK to give them a job...good luck to them. The locals need to wake up and look whats going on around them. And on the agency in question its true!
At the same time it would be nice to see BALPA doing something to make sure that those who train in the UK are of a standard that make them a UK airlines first choice. If the Airlines can recruit a higher calibre Wannabe from overseas, who can blame them?
Actually, I work with 5 Danish, 4 Swedish, 3 Norwegians. Thats where i get my information.
Maybe I came accross as ranting. However the point I was trying to get accross to guys\gals in the UK there are jobs. As per Lonchops post
maybe those who cant get jobs they are simply going about it the wrong way and need another plan.If someone can come from overseas and convince an airline in the UK to give them a job...good luck to them. The locals need to wake up and look whats going on around them. And on the agency in question its true!
At the same time it would be nice to see BALPA doing something to make sure that those who train in the UK are of a standard that make them a UK airlines first choice. If the Airlines can recruit a higher calibre Wannabe from overseas, who can blame them?
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It is not BALPA's job to oversee training standards in the UK's flight schools. That is the CAA's job, and it is these days carried out on behalf of the European Joint Aviation Authority (JAA). Neither is it BALPA's job to illegally attempt to influence employers to take on exclusively, or a majority of, British pilots. Whether you like it or not, the UK is a full member of the EU and its employment legislation reflects the freedom of movement of labour that is enshrined in the EU's intent and reason for existence. If you wish to influence that, you have a vote.
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