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want my money back

Old 15th Mar 2005, 17:23
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Coming to Europe Soon

Great post Ronch

I have to say some of your points are correct.

One point is the creation of a training programme for Airline pilots -it is called the Multi Pilot Rating MPL

ICAO are planning to start it next year

And yes... most of the training is done in an airline simulator

(The initial part is done SE single crew - just for the basics)
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Old 16th Mar 2005, 09:31
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Wink

I couldn't agree with Spaceman1000 more. It really does get you down when you are busting your balls to get your first job & no one will give you a break. You & your mates just about scraping by when you see others taken on, with apparently the same or less qualifications than you, by an airline who told you that they weren't recruiting!

Flying schools are mostly a pack of complete liars peddling false hope so that they can fill their ill-run courses which most of the time have absolutely F-all to do with commercial flying. (Radio wave propagation, do a compass swing, pick a field into wind to crash your B757 into!)

However, we all know this but we do eventually get that first break. We jump through the hoops, tick the boxes & we get their. Where did all those guys come from with their 2000 hours total & 500 on type? They came from where some of you guys are now. Stick with it & it will happen. Allow Spaceman1000 to air his views; at least he's generated a thread that opens up debate.
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Old 16th Mar 2005, 11:39
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i thought that i may just add something here for old spacey! I have just started with Flybe and on the 10 people on our course there are at least 5 that have the minimum hours after finishing a 509 or integrated. Therefore your silly little theory of no one with 200-250 hours getting jobs is wrong! I myself am an ex instructor with around 1000 hours of time on PA28's etc....so YET AGAIN your silly little theory of instructors not getting jobs is wrong! Infact there were 6 or so instructors from Cabair that got jobs last month..further proving that u need to check your facts before throwing an imature paddy that is clearly not getting you anywhere. I hope this would spur people to not give up on that airline job, things are looking up people, Flybe alone are getting 20 more Q400's!! do the maths!
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Old 16th Mar 2005, 14:30
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Instructors gone to airlines

My local flying school had 4 instructors and over the past 6 months, 3 of them have now secured jobs with airlines.

I know single engine hours are probably not the best in the world. But, 1000 hours over 200h looks better on a CV.

To be doing such things as multi and IMC training is better than the odd hop to the local area.

I believe this debate is raging due to the fact that there is no consistency, continuity or set perameters to the job market. If there was we would all know what to do and get in line.

Sometimes, it's enough to turn you to prostitution. Giving that is, not recieving. Got to do something to earn money.
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Old 20th Mar 2005, 13:54
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spaceman, why havent you left for the US? There are so many part 135 operators, that you will be employed for sure! Think about it!
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Old 20th Mar 2005, 14:10
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ah ah!
FI getting jobs?, under what condition? buying a type at astreus with no job guaranty, or pay to work with eagle jet.

Is that what you call getting a job?

I know many guys working in the HR department for an airline, most agree that if you do not secure a job after 6 months or 1 year, they will not look at you.It costs to much to train you.

I agree the best way is to become a FI, but once again, the chances to get a job with no jet time and a real flight experience (3000h, 500 hours jet)is very slim. after paying for your cpl, you have to pay for your FI ticket, then your t/r and MCC.

do not worry kids, in 1 year or so, a new system will be in place. Guys having done their license before 2005 will be screwed.
Airlines will pick up (maybe) guys with the new JAA license including more hours on multi pilot aircraft.So once again, you will have to pay a school to make a special"conversion course".

Next time you go in the CAA offie (or any JAA office), ask them how they will help you to get a job.(if you do not have to pay for that)...circa 2000 UNEMPLOYED pilots in UK, 2500 in france, 2000 in germany, 2000 in spain, 800 in portugal, 2000 in italy, etc,...
pilots needed for 2005?circa 1000 .

Kids, please, no ketchup in my burger, thanks!!!


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Old 20th Mar 2005, 15:59
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Spaceman I'm curious have things really changed that much in the aviation job market since you started your training or were you just too ignorant/young/naive back in those days to believe the people who are constantly telling wanabees just how tough it is to land a job?

It is posted on PPRuNe day in day out by those people in the know and with more experience than yourself just what a tough industry it is, so if you had done your research you should have fully known what to expect.... no offence intended but surely it can't have come as a complete surprise to you or anyone else for that matter?

If you really fell for the sales and marketing pitch of a flight training organisation then I do feel sorry for you. I do have some sympathy with people coming straight out of school with little experience of how the world works and racking up 70k of debt without any real appreciation of the value of money because they have secured their loan on mum and dads house. Those people I agree probably do need a little bit more protection than they are currently getting. But in general for anyone who goes down the ATPL route IT IS A GAMBLE and one that should not be taken on lightly..... geeeeeez how many times has that been written in this forum???

Having spent the last 2 years reading the trials and tribulations (and indeed successes.... well done to those who have recently landed jobs) of PPRuNe forumites its strikes me as obvious that you should always have a back-up plan just in case you don't land that job. What was yours Spaceman?

So as us Brits say pull yourself together man, stiff upper lip, stop whinging and get out and do something to improve your situation. If that involves flipping burgers to save up enough money to get an instructors rating that will get you one stage futher up the ladder then go flip burgers... there's no free lunch in any profession these days least of all aviation. Why don't you go out and be proactive to improve your chances rather than blaming everyone else and thinking the world owes you a living.

Good luck anyway, you do have my sympathy even though your moaning is getting a little tiresome. Hopefully next time you post you can tell us a little bit about how you are going about improving your chances rather than just having a go a variety of different organisations that frankly owe you nothing.
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Old 22nd Mar 2005, 15:59
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This guy really makes me laugh. I just think he is winding everyone up and we are rising to it!

I dont think anybody who has passed an fATPL could actually be that stupid!
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Old 23rd Mar 2005, 11:09
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I'm a 26 year old wannabe with a PPL and I'm only too fully aware of the difficulty ahead of me, as I plan to join EFT's integrated APP in September.

It seems apparent to me that alot of people are jumping into this without any sort of contingency plan.

It seems there are a few precautions to ensure your survival, but they seem to be ignored by many.

These days IMHO it's insanity to start this route without a degree or experience in a career you can return to after your training while you wait your lucky break. It also seems to make sense to choose a course that offers hour building through flight instruction, to improve your chance of that lucky break.

Upon completion of your course, if that break takes a long time to materialise at least you will have a FI qualification, and a chance to secure some hour building work with your local school. And in my case I can use the bus/marketing degree i'm just finishing to join an airline in admin or junior management, and start sleeping with a girl from HR!

Remember there are alot of people that are getting that break, and from what I read its down to their hard work and determination, and I guess they are too busy flying jets to comment on this thread!
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Old 23rd Mar 2005, 13:08
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Cosworth,

I can only agree fully with all you say. I too am in the position of considering only now at age 24 going to do an integrated course (with PPL & UAS behind me) - those who embarked upon licences while I was jealously watching on from both university and my current job (read backup career) have either fallen by the wayside through lack of cash, lost heart in the process or are struggling as flying instructors.

The only people I personally know who are sitting in the RHS of a jet at my age are in the RAF - this year they too are subject to uncertainty with only 15 pilots being taken on at Cranwell.

The role is constantly on a knife-edge, with commercial pressures on an underperforming industry not to mention the Class 1 medical that could render many unemployable as pilots in an instant.

To dive into the industry without full awareness of the issues may in fact be one of the reasons why employement is not found immediately. Rationally, the development of a backup plan is paramount to success - the ability to earn money to keep you independent and able to make choices about the route you follow comes before throwing yourself headlong into the industry through the pure love of flying. Maturity to put yourself in that position and act rationally would - I think - be thought of more highly by any employer among candidates with otherwise similar hours and experience.

I will reserve judgement until I too have been through the process and found myself a flight deck position, however the ability to see the situation relatively objectively is an advantage now.

I hope you find a job Spaceman1000 - however I wonder why you posted this thread. Are you really attacking the industry into which you entered fully knowing the consequences, or are you really trying to seek approval and sympathy for your decisions so far to make you feel better? If so you have come to the wrong place.
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Old 23rd Mar 2005, 13:23
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I know someone at the age of 24 who is flying for BMI Baby so its not all doom and gloom.
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