Paying for your own rating
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Paying for your own rating
any one out there got any idea on recrutiments for pilots with approx 250hrs ne where in the world ,, where you can a get a job in an airline or charter or any other sorts of flying if u r ready to pay for the rating on the aircrafts they want you on ..
please let me know asap ..
thanx
please let me know asap ..
thanx
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To put a more eloquent turn of phrase to Gus's comment.
With 250hrs...you barely know how to fly an aeroplane..and before all the howls of protest from other lowish timers....go and ask the insurance companies..they assess the risks.
I would advise instructing, or anything else that will increase your PIC time, and apart from a couple of LCC's who will gladly part you with your money....not many other people will look at you unless you know someone.....or you are a lucky bugger.
If you want to jump the queue...and plenty do...well be prepared to fork out plenty of cash..with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.
Its really a question of building the right kind of experience....and being persistant.
With 250hrs...you barely know how to fly an aeroplane..and before all the howls of protest from other lowish timers....go and ask the insurance companies..they assess the risks.
I would advise instructing, or anything else that will increase your PIC time, and apart from a couple of LCC's who will gladly part you with your money....not many other people will look at you unless you know someone.....or you are a lucky bugger.
If you want to jump the queue...and plenty do...well be prepared to fork out plenty of cash..with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.
Its really a question of building the right kind of experience....and being persistant.
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That is a little harsh... But realistically, paying for your own rating will almost certainly NOT give you a boost up the geasy pole (but we all know of a few spawny gits who have shimmied up the "Pay for your own rating" pole and got away). Airlines only want people who can fly (Type Rating and THE MOST IMPORTANT - OPERATIONAL TIME ON TYPE!!!) So paying fo your own rating may help, but I doubt it. It will be an unnecessary expense as next month you'll put up a post, "Where does a 250 hour Boeing/Tupolev/Twotter rated pilot get a job?" It also throws a rock the pond off those (like me) who believe that your employer should pay. Best of luck, and don't pay!
There was a long discussion about Luke's company here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=133264
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=133264
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There is movement in the job market, and some low houred pilots are finding flying positions, even without type ratings.
I funded my own rating 13 years ago and it still took 6 months to find a position.
Fortunately, it paid off and now i'm a Senior Training Captain and have flown both Boeing and Airbus types. (even paid off all the loans)
There are many arguements both for and against private funding of flying ratings. I can sympathise with both sides of the arguement, but would rather not get involved in a debate on the subject.
One thing is for sure!!! You make your own luck! You have to be determined and you have to be commited to working hard. If you want it bad enough, you will succeed!
Best of luck to all the job seekers out there.
I funded my own rating 13 years ago and it still took 6 months to find a position.
Fortunately, it paid off and now i'm a Senior Training Captain and have flown both Boeing and Airbus types. (even paid off all the loans)
There are many arguements both for and against private funding of flying ratings. I can sympathise with both sides of the arguement, but would rather not get involved in a debate on the subject.
One thing is for sure!!! You make your own luck! You have to be determined and you have to be commited to working hard. If you want it bad enough, you will succeed!
Best of luck to all the job seekers out there.
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Zoheb,
Sould you decide to go down the self-funded type rating path you will not be queue jumping but taking your rightful place in the queue.
As a pilot waiting for his first commercial position the airline industry, not just LCC's, does not owe you anything and it is part of modern day practices to expect the pilot to self-fund.
Like others, you could sit on your ass at home and wait for the industry to come to you, those guys will be at the back of the queue, or you can get off your ass, and the internet, and go do something positive.
Whilst no jobs can ever be 'guaranteed' in the airline industry do try to go for a self-fund whereas there is a serious employment offer at the end of it.
Good LuckAs these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
Sould you decide to go down the self-funded type rating path you will not be queue jumping but taking your rightful place in the queue.
As a pilot waiting for his first commercial position the airline industry, not just LCC's, does not owe you anything and it is part of modern day practices to expect the pilot to self-fund.
Like others, you could sit on your ass at home and wait for the industry to come to you, those guys will be at the back of the queue, or you can get off your ass, and the internet, and go do something positive.
Whilst no jobs can ever be 'guaranteed' in the airline industry do try to go for a self-fund whereas there is a serious employment offer at the end of it.
Good LuckAs these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
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Luke Skytoddler
Very interested to see your post, I have 262 hrs (inc 1.5 hrs jet)and last year got a B737 type rating but still looking for that first job.
I tried your link but there appears to be some snafu as it keeps linking me to mcdonalds, which airline is it that you are talking about.
yours grateful
g
Very interested to see your post, I have 262 hrs (inc 1.5 hrs jet)and last year got a B737 type rating but still looking for that first job.
I tried your link but there appears to be some snafu as it keeps linking me to mcdonalds, which airline is it that you are talking about.
yours grateful
g
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Phileas...whilst I agree whole heartedly with your comments relating to the industry not owing ANYONE a living..or indeed getting off ones arse to be the squeaky hinge etc...etc..., I must take issue with your self sponsered type rating comment. The only reason companies like Ryanair, Astraus(ok I cant spell)..not to mention a few others are exploiting wannabes..is simple..because they can.
The argument I hear on here time and time again is "well im doing this to get my first step on the ladder" which is both ridiculous, and narrow minded as it is inaccurate, the fact of the matter is that this is just the thin end of the wedge, already Ryanair are making more "savings" by having aircrew pay for base checks..recurrency training..and not to mention positioning or anything else they can get away with. Dont delude yourself that other airline companies wont jump on the band wagon....then in mayby 7-10years from now, and your sick of 6 sector days on your A320/737....and you want to get your hands on something a little bigger....."well Mr Fogg we would be delighted to offer you the job, but there is the small matter of the 20k for your type-rating....cash or cheque?"
Ask yourself this question Phileas....how grumpy would you be to know that there are some of us..(me included who are by no means exceptional) who have secured employment in the last 6 months...not having had to spend a penny!
In my case I politely told the particular Fleet manager when he asked.....to stick his job..if I had to fund my type-rating, guess what..I got the job. Like Ive said before..and I feel strongly about this..be strong..dont prostitute yourself.
The argument I hear on here time and time again is "well im doing this to get my first step on the ladder" which is both ridiculous, and narrow minded as it is inaccurate, the fact of the matter is that this is just the thin end of the wedge, already Ryanair are making more "savings" by having aircrew pay for base checks..recurrency training..and not to mention positioning or anything else they can get away with. Dont delude yourself that other airline companies wont jump on the band wagon....then in mayby 7-10years from now, and your sick of 6 sector days on your A320/737....and you want to get your hands on something a little bigger....."well Mr Fogg we would be delighted to offer you the job, but there is the small matter of the 20k for your type-rating....cash or cheque?"
Ask yourself this question Phileas....how grumpy would you be to know that there are some of us..(me included who are by no means exceptional) who have secured employment in the last 6 months...not having had to spend a penny!
In my case I politely told the particular Fleet manager when he asked.....to stick his job..if I had to fund my type-rating, guess what..I got the job. Like Ive said before..and I feel strongly about this..be strong..dont prostitute yourself.
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haughtney1, whilst I agree with you in many respects, it will take more than a bulletin board to bring the entire wannabe pilot community together and say - "WE WILL NOT PAY FOR TYPE RATINGS" to actually stop it happening. Until you can guarantee that not a single wannabe will pay for a type rating, forcing the airlines (even the lo-cos) to pay for it, then people will continue to prostitute themselves because they are looking after number one! Its dog eat dog my friend, and while I'd like to think of a world where no wannabe would ever agree to buying a type rating, it aint ever gonna happen, in fact the situation will only get worse as you say.
I don't want to pay for a rating, but when I complete my training (which I have been lucky enough to have all the liquid cash to do) and no one is hiring without a type-rating, or they are, but you have to have considerable luck and ideally a contact within, then, yes...I will be fuding my own type-rating no doubt, as I'll be in a financial position to do so, and hell, i'm not gonna watch my ATPL lapse into oblivion (where getting a job will be even tougher) when I can just it over and done with, buy the rating, take the hit and make it up in the years that I'll have doing what I set out to do.
I'm 25, if I make it by 27/28, then I'll still have over 30 years of flying to recoup and enjoy my life.
I don't want to pay for a rating, but when I complete my training (which I have been lucky enough to have all the liquid cash to do) and no one is hiring without a type-rating, or they are, but you have to have considerable luck and ideally a contact within, then, yes...I will be fuding my own type-rating no doubt, as I'll be in a financial position to do so, and hell, i'm not gonna watch my ATPL lapse into oblivion (where getting a job will be even tougher) when I can just it over and done with, buy the rating, take the hit and make it up in the years that I'll have doing what I set out to do.
I'm 25, if I make it by 27/28, then I'll still have over 30 years of flying to recoup and enjoy my life.
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haughtney1,
I am not saying I agree or disagree with the self-fund issue however it is the way the market has gone, like it or not.
Good luck to you if you found your position by other means however I think you will find it is more than the 'few' that either expect you to pay up front for a type-rating or work it off on a reduced salary.
You complain about 6 sector days but then you're restricted (FTL's) by the number of hours you can work in a week, fortnight, 4 weeks and a year. Bless you that someone expects a pilot to work for a living but I for one, do not want to pay excessive air fares for pilots to sit on their ass at home.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
I am not saying I agree or disagree with the self-fund issue however it is the way the market has gone, like it or not.
Good luck to you if you found your position by other means however I think you will find it is more than the 'few' that either expect you to pay up front for a type-rating or work it off on a reduced salary.
You complain about 6 sector days but then you're restricted (FTL's) by the number of hours you can work in a week, fortnight, 4 weeks and a year. Bless you that someone expects a pilot to work for a living but I for one, do not want to pay excessive air fares for pilots to sit on their ass at home.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
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Not really qualified to comment however I was at one of the Britannia open days last Tues and they told us that they consider self funded type rated guys with no operational hours as NOT TYPE RATED! It may only be one airlines perspective but worth taking into account.
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Phileas
you have missed the point I was making..by a fair margin. If as professionals we look at the bigger picture for a moment a couple of things become apparent.
1. The market for self funded type ratings is limited, and contributes to downward spiral of experience and quality on the flightdeck as it trades on low timers desperation to try and land that first jet job, rather than learn their chosen profession. There is NO substitute for experience as far as aviation is concerned.
2. Employers who value their employees and invest in their future have a far greater return on their investment, all whilst minimising risk as the job market is tight and therefore its a better option to stay.
My 1st point is reinforced if you go and have a look at the job pages for airlines around the world, they suggest that pilots need experience..yes a type rating..oh and some more experience on type!!!!. I challenge anyone to go and ask any Flight Ops person..or Chief Pilot of a reputable airline (apart from an obvious maverick Irish outfit) as to the desireability and suitability of a SSTR person with 300hrs....or a 1200hr person who is motivated and able to be trained. 9 out of 10 will take the second choice...and they will train that person to competency given the correct set of criteria. The organisations whos business it is to churn out Type ratings will have you believe that the days of airlines conducting training are over...and to a certain extent it is, as most of the initial training is out-sourced, however this is more a case of an airline not having to invest considerable capital sums in sims or buildings..not because they are cost cutting and have no capability to train. Does Virgin take non-rated pilots?..of course they do...do they invest in their crew?..once again of course they do...do they have a high turnover of crew?....a big fat no.
An SSTR as a tool to jump the queue?..gimmie a break...at best it shows youve got some money to throw about..at worst youve got money to throw about and your an idiot.
The ONLY justification(and even then its a thin wedge) for a SSTR is a situation where you have been offered a job..and you feel that you have no other choice.
As to my second point....anyone with half a brain understands this simple..yet incredibly effective form of employee management.
To clarify something.....Im not complaining about 4 or 6 sector days..far from it...I was showing you that in few years time...if you think SSTR's are just a logical step in......you could end up paying for everything.
All of this of course is my opinion, but my opinion has been formed through a few tough years of hard knocks..and generally being pragmatic. The SSTR is a symptom of the "I want it now" culture..all its really doing is making money for TRO's
cheers H
you have missed the point I was making..by a fair margin. If as professionals we look at the bigger picture for a moment a couple of things become apparent.
1. The market for self funded type ratings is limited, and contributes to downward spiral of experience and quality on the flightdeck as it trades on low timers desperation to try and land that first jet job, rather than learn their chosen profession. There is NO substitute for experience as far as aviation is concerned.
2. Employers who value their employees and invest in their future have a far greater return on their investment, all whilst minimising risk as the job market is tight and therefore its a better option to stay.
My 1st point is reinforced if you go and have a look at the job pages for airlines around the world, they suggest that pilots need experience..yes a type rating..oh and some more experience on type!!!!. I challenge anyone to go and ask any Flight Ops person..or Chief Pilot of a reputable airline (apart from an obvious maverick Irish outfit) as to the desireability and suitability of a SSTR person with 300hrs....or a 1200hr person who is motivated and able to be trained. 9 out of 10 will take the second choice...and they will train that person to competency given the correct set of criteria. The organisations whos business it is to churn out Type ratings will have you believe that the days of airlines conducting training are over...and to a certain extent it is, as most of the initial training is out-sourced, however this is more a case of an airline not having to invest considerable capital sums in sims or buildings..not because they are cost cutting and have no capability to train. Does Virgin take non-rated pilots?..of course they do...do they invest in their crew?..once again of course they do...do they have a high turnover of crew?....a big fat no.
An SSTR as a tool to jump the queue?..gimmie a break...at best it shows youve got some money to throw about..at worst youve got money to throw about and your an idiot.
The ONLY justification(and even then its a thin wedge) for a SSTR is a situation where you have been offered a job..and you feel that you have no other choice.
As to my second point....anyone with half a brain understands this simple..yet incredibly effective form of employee management.
To clarify something.....Im not complaining about 4 or 6 sector days..far from it...I was showing you that in few years time...if you think SSTR's are just a logical step in......you could end up paying for everything.
All of this of course is my opinion, but my opinion has been formed through a few tough years of hard knocks..and generally being pragmatic. The SSTR is a symptom of the "I want it now" culture..all its really doing is making money for TRO's
cheers H
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Haughtney,
You do talk some sense but I believe your estimate that 9 out of 10 of Chief Pilots would pay to train the experienced, well perhaps they would however it's not the CP's pulling the purse strings! If you're suggesting that 9 out of 10 airlines will type rate, on a type worth having, for free then I think you're way off beam.
I know, there are a lot of guys out there, with similar to 1200 hours or more and still they can't get a look-in unless they self-fund. You give the impression that only 200 hours guys consider self-funding, I know that to be inaccurate, in this day and age even Captains find themselves prepared to self-fund to get themselves onto a decent aeroplane.
The SSTR is not an invention of the TRO's, is it the airlines, in a dog eat dog industry, trying to reduce costs to stay in business whilst competing with each other. I hate bean-counters with a vengeance however they have more of a grip on this industry than perhaps we would like!
It's all very well to have an effective form of employee management but only if the airline can afford to stay in business!
You do talk some sense but I believe your estimate that 9 out of 10 of Chief Pilots would pay to train the experienced, well perhaps they would however it's not the CP's pulling the purse strings! If you're suggesting that 9 out of 10 airlines will type rate, on a type worth having, for free then I think you're way off beam.
I know, there are a lot of guys out there, with similar to 1200 hours or more and still they can't get a look-in unless they self-fund. You give the impression that only 200 hours guys consider self-funding, I know that to be inaccurate, in this day and age even Captains find themselves prepared to self-fund to get themselves onto a decent aeroplane.
The SSTR is not an invention of the TRO's, is it the airlines, in a dog eat dog industry, trying to reduce costs to stay in business whilst competing with each other. I hate bean-counters with a vengeance however they have more of a grip on this industry than perhaps we would like!
It's all very well to have an effective form of employee management but only if the airline can afford to stay in business!
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Phileas
I think your last paragraph has hit the nail on the head...and therein lies the rub.......A proportion of the current crop of operators quite clearly shouldnt be in business, it is apparent that the SSTR is an important revenue stream...not in a direct sense but in terms of operating a business model that is precarious at best. If you go back and look at US de-regulation, plenty of companies were in the same boat...the difference is these days that candidates seem wholly willing to borrow up to their eyeballs with no thought for tommorrow.
Southwest airlines is as I am sure you are well aware the original model for low cost..it is also currently the most profitable airline in the US. My point being that despite competition every bit as fierce as it is here..they have done it right...measured growth..core employer..employee values..and best of all no SSTR...other than a bonded scheme..(which is my preference by the way)
I recognise that there will ALWAYS be those individuals with the financial resources to further themselves in a way that is detrimental to those who are perhaps better suited but are a little poorer, what I cant accept is that money rather than skill sets and experience are the determining factors when it comes to the lives of our paying customers. Plenty of people can pass a type rating course....I dont honestly believe that on the basis of finance one person is more suitable than another.
As to very experienced people paying for type-ratings....I would venture to suggest that this is due to a large change in career path..or something of that nature. For instance I know of a 747-400 capt that wants to fly GIV's....but he has a job to go to at the end of it, hes not doing it on the off chance of getting to the front of the queue.
And yes ultimately its the bean counters running the show.
I think your last paragraph has hit the nail on the head...and therein lies the rub.......A proportion of the current crop of operators quite clearly shouldnt be in business, it is apparent that the SSTR is an important revenue stream...not in a direct sense but in terms of operating a business model that is precarious at best. If you go back and look at US de-regulation, plenty of companies were in the same boat...the difference is these days that candidates seem wholly willing to borrow up to their eyeballs with no thought for tommorrow.
Southwest airlines is as I am sure you are well aware the original model for low cost..it is also currently the most profitable airline in the US. My point being that despite competition every bit as fierce as it is here..they have done it right...measured growth..core employer..employee values..and best of all no SSTR...other than a bonded scheme..(which is my preference by the way)
I recognise that there will ALWAYS be those individuals with the financial resources to further themselves in a way that is detrimental to those who are perhaps better suited but are a little poorer, what I cant accept is that money rather than skill sets and experience are the determining factors when it comes to the lives of our paying customers. Plenty of people can pass a type rating course....I dont honestly believe that on the basis of finance one person is more suitable than another.
As to very experienced people paying for type-ratings....I would venture to suggest that this is due to a large change in career path..or something of that nature. For instance I know of a 747-400 capt that wants to fly GIV's....but he has a job to go to at the end of it, hes not doing it on the off chance of getting to the front of the queue.
And yes ultimately its the bean counters running the show.
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Haughtney,
I've heard it said before that Southwest say they are the original low cost carrier, a modern day phrase I hasten to add.
I was of the opinion that I once worked for the original low fares (bring your sandwiches with you etc.) airline and that was back in the 1970's.
Just as a matter of interest, how far back did Southwest start offering low fares?
I've heard it said before that Southwest say they are the original low cost carrier, a modern day phrase I hasten to add.
I was of the opinion that I once worked for the original low fares (bring your sandwiches with you etc.) airline and that was back in the 1970's.
Just as a matter of interest, how far back did Southwest start offering low fares?
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Some interesting posts fellas.
As one who has lived/worked on both sides of the pond, this "buy your own type rating" is nothing new - at least not in the US. Seems the adage of what happens in America eventually becomes the norm over here.
Some years ago, I decided NOT to do a certain type (I already had it on two other ICAO licences plus the time on type) even though I was kinda desparate. The reason? Simple, I was not convinced that it would enhanc my overall qualifications. Heck, if I could not get my foot in the door with the experience I ALREADY had, what guarantee was there that a bit of paper would do the trick? It was one of the best decisions I ever made & saved me not just a bunch of money, but a lot of grief, too. Fast forward 10 years, get laid off because your comapny goes bust and the government stepped in and gave me a free type rating worth a cool $14000! My advice, don't do it unless you are going to get something in return. And I don't mean interest payments!!
By the way, Sothwest have been around for some 25 years and made a profit each and every year....and they require you to have a 737 type rating before they will hire, as well as plenty of PIC turbine time...SIC is no good, even if you have 10,000. But that's another story....
As one who has lived/worked on both sides of the pond, this "buy your own type rating" is nothing new - at least not in the US. Seems the adage of what happens in America eventually becomes the norm over here.
Some years ago, I decided NOT to do a certain type (I already had it on two other ICAO licences plus the time on type) even though I was kinda desparate. The reason? Simple, I was not convinced that it would enhanc my overall qualifications. Heck, if I could not get my foot in the door with the experience I ALREADY had, what guarantee was there that a bit of paper would do the trick? It was one of the best decisions I ever made & saved me not just a bunch of money, but a lot of grief, too. Fast forward 10 years, get laid off because your comapny goes bust and the government stepped in and gave me a free type rating worth a cool $14000! My advice, don't do it unless you are going to get something in return. And I don't mean interest payments!!
By the way, Sothwest have been around for some 25 years and made a profit each and every year....and they require you to have a 737 type rating before they will hire, as well as plenty of PIC turbine time...SIC is no good, even if you have 10,000. But that's another story....