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I will NOT pay for a T/R

Old 31st Aug 2004, 19:11
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... Great posts Scroggs ! Hope everybody realises that.
All the best,
FNav
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 19:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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So as it stands, there are so many of us out here who aren't willing to pay for our own TR's. If this is the case then where are the people that are paying for their own TR's?

I dont know anybody who admits to having paid £50 for an interview with Ryanair........infact.........most of the pilots i come across laugh at the idea of paying for a TR let alone an interview........but.........it still goes on!!!!

From where i am sat the whole situation is laughable. £50 for an interview is a none starter! Infact its damn right hilarious! It doesnt even stop there....going on to pay for your uniform once your in the door is even funnier......The day i give-in to that is the day i might aswell bend over and let the beancounters have their wicked way!!

Scroggs..... You quite rightfully say PPRuNe isnt the place to sort this but it certainly is a good starting point...........I hope this thread goes onto be somehing big and sorts out the whole problem with self funded TR's!!!

Scroggs.....Im with you son! I will NEVER pay for my own TR or interview!!
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 20:14
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Rowley I didn't say PPRuNe wasn't the right place, just stated my opinion that it won't get sorted here. It's most certainly the right place to express your opinions; hopefully some of those in a position to influence things may read them and move things in the right direction. However, I won't hold my breath. In the end, it will be the market and the unions that will force change.

Of all the wannabes trying to get jobs in UK, a sizeable majority are not, sadly, subscribers to PPRuNe. Many of those who do read PPRuNe never contribute; they hope to get an advantage by reading things here and using the knowledge gained elsewhere. Many, who are rightly afraid to stick their noses above the parapet, will just keep their heads down and pay for whatever they can get and sod those who come after them. That, unfortunately, is the way of the world. Integrity is no more endemic in the wannabe population than it is in the world at large, I'm afraid. Let's just hope that those individuals never get decent jobs!

Scroggs
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 20:27
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Scroggs..... You quite rightfully say PPRuNe isnt the place to sort this but it certainly is a good starting point...........I hope this thread goes onto be somehing big and sorts out the whole problem with self funded TR's!!!

Isn't it because of "a thread" here @ PPRuNe that MOL is jumping in a rage in his office threatening legal... So PPRuNe can have an effect... Even if it is a small voice.
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 08:28
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I've just seen a local instructor get a massive legup directly due to having done a type rating...and he'll be working for even less than his instructor salary for a fair while! It makes that route look awfully tempting and when you're sitting in your 30's or - heaven help us - 40's and still waiting for that lucky break, it's kinda hard to be noble and refuse to 'prostitute' in the hopes that it might improve the market and working conditions in the future. All the while watching younger guys getting jobs with the extra 10 years they have to offer.

As a community, pilots tend not to stick together and would easily step on eachother for a job if the need arose. It's a great idea that we should all unite and change the market, but while there are just a few out there willing to do whatever it takes too get ahead, we're screwed.

And even while writing this I'm asking myself the same old question - as a late starter in the industry, aren't I willing to do whatever it takes to grab the career that is disappearing with the mounting years?
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 08:49
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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But what is that career worth if you're prepared to work for nothing? Why should an employer ever pay you if your love of flying takes precedence over your self respect?

I have no problem with the concept of apprenticeship, and the principle of paying less for less useful personnel, but I have no time for those who devalue my position by working for nothing. I worked bloody hard and for a very long time to get to a reasonably well-paid flying job. Now guys like you come along and effectively tell my employer that I'm too expensive and you'll work for much less - and you want me to support you? Get real!

Scroggs
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 10:32
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For years I have had pilots tell me, not to bow down to the course of buying a type rating, and for the so called good of aviation I did not do so....."Let them pay for it " they said...But they did not do so...I remained in my instrucing job waiting...Watching students ( yes younger ones I admit) going and getting the jobs that I had been told that I would oneday get...

Its all well and good, for the guys who have had their type ratings paid for by the airlines when aviation was in the good old days, but times have changed. And for someone in their late 30's still instructing, there is no future while trying to bring up a family of 2 children..On an instructors wage.

Yes aviation is picking up for the new ones, but I am not a 20's something new one. And with a family I needed to do something. If some Airline Captain who has had the airlines pay for his career so far does not like it, then let it be... but that will not look after my family..He is welcome to their opinion and I will not try to go into it with them...My decision to pay for a type rating is a personal one and my own alone..

I have recently paid for a type rating and have been offered more jobs and opportunities in 2 weeks than I did as a 3000 hour odd pilot, in 4 years. I am now endeavouring on a job that will not only give me 100's of hours of jet experience but, is also paying for me as well..(this is what will help me keep food on my families table)...

There are still companies out there who appreciate the efforts we have gone to to get our qualifications and ratings and show it.

It may not be a popular move with some people, but that is tough..

I can now look after my family properly for the first time in years and not look forward to a future of uncertainty. ...And it is my family not other pilots..that come first in my life...

Aviation is my work...Family is my life...
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 12:41
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onedaymaybe?

Maybe now you can change that to 'onedayfinally!'

Which type are you rated on now, may I ask?

Cheers JB
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 14:14
  #29 (permalink)  

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I remember the howls of outrage when a certain Irish airline introduced the ‘£50 to read your CV’ scam - sorry - scheme. Of course, no-one would stoop to handing over cash to have their CV read. Then within a month the posts started appearing here: “I’ve applied and they haven’t answered – anyone else heard from them?” Or, even better: “I’ve applied and haven’t heard anything – bloody rip-off.”

Small wonder – if people are prepared to roll over that easily – that certain ‘enterprising’ employers will take you for all you’re worth. Anyone who can’t see that it’s the thin end of a very nasty wedge is naive in the extreme. If anyone needs convincing, witness paying for uniforms, medicals, drinks, company travel, no sick pay, no pension, etc etc. What next – paying for the extra fuel if you go-around?

A rhetorical question – where is your line in the sand? At what point do you think “this really isn’t worth it?” Or in simple financial terms, when does the expenditure in ‘buying the ticket’ exceed the eventual rewards?

I know it’s a difficult issue, and I know this discussion can’t solve all the problems of the industry (although if it gets people thinking, it’s already served a useful purpose). I would dearly love to fly commercially, but I’m absolutely clear in my mind – if future ‘employment’ involves paying for everything from bottles of water to type ratings, and tugging my forelock to management that wouldn’t look out of place in a Victorian mill, it really isn’t worth it.
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 14:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

You're absolutely right, Scroggs, & when people begin to realise that an airline pilot's job is exactly that: a job & not a hobby then maybe we can put a little bit of dignity back into avaition.

You have touched on the wider subject of not just funding TRs but what we are unfortunately happy to accept once we are flying commercially, which, I have to say, is very little. A guy who paid for his B737 rating in the spring with another TRTO started with FR is July. He has paid for just about everything, including having to fund his own CRM & SOP course with them!

We shouldn't just keep on about our friends at FR, though. Look now at the rotten offer from Flyjet. If you pay £22,000 for your 757 rating you may get a job with them. Until last month they were considering ditching their 757s altogether & going down the Airbus route, that was if they survived at all. And the alst comment came from none other than their then DOFO. How safe is your £22,000 if they were so insecure just two months ago? But they sure as hell will take your money.
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 15:13
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Arrow

The only time I would consider buying a type rating would be if a bunch of pilots got together to start a new outfit. I would also expect those who put their money up front to get a reasonable return on their investment since the majority would be paying interest on it. At this point I think the connection between pigs and flying or hell with a severe wind chill would be appropriate.
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 16:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Remember all the furore about university fees and student loans earlier this year? Did a single pilot put their story forward of the £50k course, no student loan and possibly having to spend another £25k joining fee for his first job? I read the broadsheets most days of the week, and didn't see any, and have to, rather shamefully, admit that I didn't either, but am waiting for the subject to reaar it's head again.

It's not that I believe anyone ows me a living, but I do think that the students need to have their problems put into context.

It's a tough subject, but I won't be forking out for a type rating again (I did pay for a Twin Otter rating 5 years ago, on the promise of a job, which was honored), and definitely not a jet rating: I simply can't afford it. And at my age, I don't want to be paying off loans, but saving into a pension fund.

I challenged BALPA about the Easy Jet scheme/scam once. It took a while to get a reply, and then they said that they were pleased to see an airline expanding and succeeding, and that if the TRSS scheme was amechanic to help thta happen, then BALPA would support it. 1% sub from all those pilots... Cynical, maybe.

We are all free to make our own decisions about our destiny: I think you know mine!
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 19:02
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Joe-Bar

Changing my name from onedaymaybe? to OnedayFnally...I like the sound of that..

What did I get rated in you asked

I got A320 Rated a few short time ago, and nearly all the guys who have gone through that I know are working for or are about to work for good airlines..

If I had a choice of an airline paying for my rating...Yes Please

But then again I would also rather an airline payed for my licence too..

But I did not have these offers being given to me..It was a choice I have not regretted.
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 19:34
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Scroggs nailed it, I think !
Airlines should pay for your type rating. Doing the full CPL/IR with the written ATPL's and MCC should really be enough... Ideally! Rare are the other professions for which so much money is invested.
Unfortunately, a lot of people are willing to sell their grandma and their dog to get ahead of the queue, which is very sad.... The argument is that we are in a new "market", that things are different.... Well, they contribute largely to the situation....
Also, I strongly oppose the argument which sometimes appear on the forum which says that paying for a TR is, in a sense, part of your training, a bit like a FI rating, etc....
Here again, a FI rating will give you a job as a FI, full stop. Being a FI is not about your ability to fly (you have already shown you can fly!), but about your ability to teach students.
A TR on the B737 might (and I say, might) give you a job on the B737, but not on any other type. Also, when you see that 200 hour pilots with a TR get a job against a 2000-hour guy who can't afford a TR, this is not normal!
This is all non sense because a TR restricts you more than anything else as someone with a 737 TR will be of no interest to turbo prop operators.... Obviously, you will gain many jet hours, but at the end of the day, all you do is keeping in place a wrong system, a system that exploits people.
Why pay to have your CV read? Obviously, they know there will be people willing to pay the money, so they thrive on it. After the CV, you have to pay for your TR. Here again, they know that there will be people desperate enough to do it. Next, will be paying the uniform, the landing fees.... who knows? Very sad....
So, obviously, a thread on a pilots' forum might not change much, but it might start people thinking... Also, maybe the unions could step in and do something about this situation.
Regards,
FNav
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 19:40
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I have every sympathy with someone who does pay for their own type rating. Reading as one does the opportunities that arose shortly afterwards for some it does seem worth it.

Nevertheless as a principle I deplore it happening as the principle is infinitely extendable to the point of destroying the profession.

Were it to become widespread I believe the CAA would step in to halt the practice. Aviation is so very much larger than in the recession of the early 90's - I therefore suspect that self funded type ratings are no more common percentage wise now than they have ever been in bad times.

There are certainly though more people numerically going down this worrying path.

Cheers

WWW
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 20:12
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Wee Weasle et al - I agree with the principle - wholeheartedly. It would be great if we would all stand up and be counted, but, as Scroggs (I think) pointed out earlier, plenty of wannabees don't even read PPRuNe, or contribute, let alone subscribe to the general consensus here.

It's a darn sight easier to bang on about principles when you already have a job. No job at all, or a potentially badly paid one, at least initially? I know I'd do what it takes ..... if my bank 'balance' could stand the further strain.
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 20:21
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I am a realist; I entirely understand that there will always be those who will have the ability to spend their way into a job (though if they've got that much money you'd have to wonder why they bother!), and, over the last few years, a type rating does seem to have given some people an advantage. I have no doubt that it will continue this way for the moment, and I don't blame people for taking this route, but I believe that the market will eventually make it too much of a lottery for airlines and they will have to start providing more training at their own expense again.

My real anger is reserved for those who, having paid for their training, announce (like the originator of another recent thread) that they'll go on working for an airline for little or no pay. That is what really devalues the pilot's job. I can't understand why a person would do this, but it seems that they are out there.

The Ryanair situation is intolerable and will be addressed once the airline is forced to accept union representation - as long as the pilot workforce retains its unity of purpose. In the meantime, we can only press for incremental improvement in the training business, eventually hoping to persuade airlines to recognise and assume their training responsibilities. It won't happen overnight!

Scroggs

Last edited by scroggs; 1st Sep 2004 at 22:42.
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Old 2nd Sep 2004, 09:16
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My real anger is reserved for those who, having paid for their training, announce (like the originator of another recent thread) that they'll go on working for an airline for little or no pay. That is what really devalues the pilot's job. I can't understand why a person would do this, but it seems that they are out there.
Scroggs

Maybe, just maybe they love the job so much that they would do anything to get it or stay in it.

I hate the idea of having to pay for ratings but it is a natural progression of this industry.

As Airborn said

It's a darn sight easier to bang on about principles when you already have a job.
Would you and all your colleagues in VS take a pay freeze for a year in order to pay for type ratings for new lads? Of course not, you look after your own but with rising fuel prices increasing wages etc etc an airline will try and save money somewhere.

Once again i reiterate that i hate that principle but if I had to I would have paid for my own rating beacuse i got sick and tired of waiting for the market to get better and wasted years doing so. Years that i could have been building P1, getting nearer command, maybe moving into medium/long haul buying a house when prices were lower, putting into a pension earlier etc etc.

I got lucky and my company paid for my rating but i did seriuosly investigate buying a course with line experience.

The other thing is that with the influx of foreign TYPE RATED pilots and employment in the EU effectively blocked off to British Pilots what is a guy gonna do.

To those who dont want to pay thats perfectly fine sit around and wait to see if the market to gets better as i did for over 5 years.

And for those who are thinking about it ask yourself this is a blue book better with a type rating in it and a few hours in or just saying CPL/IR?
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Old 2nd Sep 2004, 09:48
  #39 (permalink)  


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Flaps to 60,

Before I go any further I want to point out that I appreciate your point of view and to an extent can understand what you are saying, both here and on other threads that have run about self sponsored type ratings, but there are still some significant issues that need to be addressed namely:

    Just in case you think I am being too pious, the sickness is spreading beyond first job pay for your own type ratings:



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Position:
    B747 Type Rating / First Officer Programme

    Experience/ Skills:
    1500 Hours jet experience

    Details:
    P*** Aviation, in association with a leading international airline, are pleased to offer First Officers the opportunity to gain a type rating, and fly the B747-400.

    In this unique programme, P***offer you the chance to self-sponsor a type rating for the Boeing 747-400 aircraft. Upon successfully gaining this type rating, we will then offer a one year contract as First Officer, flying intercontinental routes. Upon completion of this year, P*** Aviation will, using our position as the biggest flight crew leasing company in the world, endeavour to find further assignments for you.

    Interested applicants should have the following minimum requirements:

    - JAR Licence
    - Class 1 JAR Medical
    - EU Passport
    - Minimum 2500 hours total time including 1500 hours on jet aircraft.
    - Candidates with minimum 3000 hours TurboProp 'Glass Cockpit' experience may also be considered.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This scheme means you have to provide a bank guarantee of €32,000 (so if you dont make the grade you have no job and a whopping big loan to service) plus if you do make the grade the agency will deduct €2667 per month from your €4000 per month salary for a year, you have to organise your own transport to a hotel down route which you have to organise and pay for yourself plus it is up to the paying flightcrew to look after tax and social security payments (which is based on your €4000 p/m salary). The entry requirments for this scheme are exactly the same as those for the "host" airline.

    As G-SXTY very astutely put it:
    where is your line in the sand? At what point do you think “this really isn’t worth it?” Or in simple financial terms, when does the expenditure in ‘buying the ticket’ exceed the eventual rewards?
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    Old 2nd Sep 2004, 09:57
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    Maybe, just maybe they love the job so much that they would do anything to get it or stay in it.
    Not good enough, I'm afraid. Just imagine if the same principle was to be exercised at McDonald's, or on the railways, or in the Police Force? People queuing up for jobs without pay? The various employers would be laughing - until the incumbent work forces said 'over our dead bodies!'. Such practises undermine the rights of those already in employment, and will not be accepted by any workforce - the aviation one is no different.

    The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure. However, it is a reality and it will take time to eliminate it.

    However, the practise of working for nothing is anathema to all paid employees in any industry, and is guaranteed to alienate them. Do it, by all means, but don't expect any friends or help on your way through aviation life. It is sh*tting on your own doorstep in the biggest possible way, and it will come to haunt you.

    Please understand that I do not count paid-for line training from a TRTO as working for nothing; I see it as an extension of the SSTR problem. The business of line training people who will not work for your organisation is simply a service provided at a cost to those who feel it necessary to go this route. To an extent, it's rather like training for an Advanced Driving Licence; probably unnecessary, but desirable to some. However, the idea of charging your employees for that training is quite a different matter, and to my (and BALPA's) mind is properly the financial responsibility of the employer - as is appropriate remuneration for the labour you provide.

    Scroggs

    P.S. Pups That wouldn't be an Icelandic airline by any chance, would it?
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