A dream too far
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Ok, Blackshift, I do understand what you're getting at, but I disagree that it's a class thing. It's far more of a perceived status thing - which has more to do with individuals' belief of what constitutes a suitable occupation for them individually than it does with any concept of what their particular strata of society should or should not do. To that extent, I think class is an outdated concept - but arrogance and misplaced self-worth will always be around!
But that's an argument for somewhere other than this topic or forum...
The fact is that if you wish to earn a reasonable living wage while studying for a self-sponsored ATPL, it is a relatively straightforward proposition to do so, so long as you are willing to take on the kinds of jobs we are suggesting. If social conditioning makes it impossible for any individual to do this, then more fool them. It is a means to an end, no more and no less.
Scroggs
But that's an argument for somewhere other than this topic or forum...
The fact is that if you wish to earn a reasonable living wage while studying for a self-sponsored ATPL, it is a relatively straightforward proposition to do so, so long as you are willing to take on the kinds of jobs we are suggesting. If social conditioning makes it impossible for any individual to do this, then more fool them. It is a means to an end, no more and no less.
Scroggs
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AAAAARGH!...ATTACK OF THE KILLER MODERATORS...
...Duuh! 
Read my post again WWW and you will notice that I never for one moment suggested otherwise. Even flight instruction in a humble spam-can is quite a bit more complicated.
The point being made was simply the relatively similar amount of "physical labour" involved.
...other than that, I'm pretty much with you all the way here!
Whether it's called "class consciousness" or "status anxiety" is really neither here nor there scroggs - either way it amounts to the same old prejudice about "getting one's hands dirty".
I'm sorry but cab driving nor HGV driving does not entail quite as much as does being an airline pilot.
Read my post again WWW and you will notice that I never for one moment suggested otherwise. Even flight instruction in a humble spam-can is quite a bit more complicated.
The point being made was simply the relatively similar amount of "physical labour" involved.
...other than that, I'm pretty much with you all the way here!
Whether it's called "class consciousness" or "status anxiety" is really neither here nor there scroggs - either way it amounts to the same old prejudice about "getting one's hands dirty".
Last edited by Blackshift; 18th Aug 2004 at 19:56.
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Blackshift,
I dont think www and scroggs are ganging up but, you do seem to have a bit of a class chip on the shoulder thing going on... Just an obs..
The only thing that is the same between Lorry drivers/Cab Drivers/Bus Drivers and Pilots is that they all seem to complain a lot.
I met quite a few pilots from all different backgrounds and airlines during my time driving buses at BA, and I don't think there were any two who had the same story to tell on how they became a pilot. They honestly came from all walks of life. True or not, www, scroggs??
Does it matter how you get there as long as you do.. Becoming a Pilot the self-funded way is a project not a career change. Raising the funds is only part of it. It's up to all of us wannabes to find our own way there, that's what the 'self' bit means.
PMA towards working is the only answer, whatever your background, maybe the driving/building/factory jobs do suck, I know mine does, but, if the office job pays 12k pa and you cant get flying, might be time to look where you can do better.
Everyone of us knows it's not on a plate even for the fortunate ones. I see the crap job pre and post ATPL as just part of the project. I think that I am lucky being able to drive both lorries and buses because I'll never be more than a few hours between unemployed and working. Also, look to the future. There you are, at the pointy end, doing the job of your dreams then bam, airline goes under, everyone's on the street to the Job Centre. With the 2-3 years LGV/PCV driving already under your belt, you'll be working within hours. It's a good safety net.
OTB
I'm just glad my 10 year old has no interest in being a Pilot, don't think I could take 2 goes round..
I dont think www and scroggs are ganging up but, you do seem to have a bit of a class chip on the shoulder thing going on... Just an obs..
The only thing that is the same between Lorry drivers/Cab Drivers/Bus Drivers and Pilots is that they all seem to complain a lot.
I met quite a few pilots from all different backgrounds and airlines during my time driving buses at BA, and I don't think there were any two who had the same story to tell on how they became a pilot. They honestly came from all walks of life. True or not, www, scroggs??
Does it matter how you get there as long as you do.. Becoming a Pilot the self-funded way is a project not a career change. Raising the funds is only part of it. It's up to all of us wannabes to find our own way there, that's what the 'self' bit means.
PMA towards working is the only answer, whatever your background, maybe the driving/building/factory jobs do suck, I know mine does, but, if the office job pays 12k pa and you cant get flying, might be time to look where you can do better.
Everyone of us knows it's not on a plate even for the fortunate ones. I see the crap job pre and post ATPL as just part of the project. I think that I am lucky being able to drive both lorries and buses because I'll never be more than a few hours between unemployed and working. Also, look to the future. There you are, at the pointy end, doing the job of your dreams then bam, airline goes under, everyone's on the street to the Job Centre. With the 2-3 years LGV/PCV driving already under your belt, you'll be working within hours. It's a good safety net.
OTB
I'm just glad my 10 year old has no interest in being a Pilot, don't think I could take 2 goes round..
Last edited by onthebuses; 18th Aug 2004 at 23:43.
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feel it is time to finally lay a dream to its death. I have always dreamt of being an airline pilot but after years of trying, 8 to be precise, I feel I should wave good bye to the dream.
I am currently undertaking a PPL, I have 8 hours so far.
Riiight. 8 hours in eight years? It certainly does sound like a dream mate, and one that is going to stay that way. Theres no wonder that you haven't managed to get sponsorship, with such an obvious drive to reach your goal...
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Another perspective
Another option which I think may be worth considering is to go into the city where the salaries quite frankly make a mockery of everything else! A young and hungry chap can within a couple of years could be earning £40-£50k for doing a corporate banking/shipping broking etc job. My Sister in Law went into finance with a third class Psychology degree. Ten years later aged 34 she earned 140k basic pay plus 140k bonus and that's by no means exceptional. Another friend of a friend makes £65 000 a month as a futures trader and basically could retire tomorrow aged 35 if he wanted to.
Sometimes I wonder whether I should have done it when I was 22 for a few years just to 'set myself up for life' Then at 30 you can decide what floats your boat.
Much as I despise the culture of greed in there and would no dounbt hate the environment there's something to be said for suffering it for a few years to never have the financial concerns the rest of us have.
(I ended up in airline Management which contrary to what you read on here isn't actually that well paid)
Desk-pilot
Sometimes I wonder whether I should have done it when I was 22 for a few years just to 'set myself up for life' Then at 30 you can decide what floats your boat.
Much as I despise the culture of greed in there and would no dounbt hate the environment there's something to be said for suffering it for a few years to never have the financial concerns the rest of us have.
(I ended up in airline Management which contrary to what you read on here isn't actually that well paid)
Desk-pilot
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you do seem to have a bit of a class chip on the shoulder thing going on... Just an obs..
Like I said, I know it's a bit taboo - whether unfashionable, non-PC, or "off message" in Blairite parlance - to put it in this context.
But that doesn't alter the fact that there are those who would seem to consider it "beneath them" take the sort of practical advice offered by the majority of posters here.
Despite the many pros, including the gilt-edged "safety net" argument as proposed by both WWW and otb, weak excuses (if any!) are offered about being unwilling or unable to take up such opportunities, and it is my suspicion many are in a state of denial about their simple snobbery.
If that means I have a "chip on my shoulder" then so be it.
An ex g/f once told me that one of the things she liked about me ( it wasn't a long list
) was that I didn't get my hand's dirty for a living. I was pretty dissapointed that she could say such a thing - and not only the grounds of being condemned with faint praise - but it turned out that this had been drummed into her by her mother as being very important. Exactly the kind of thinking one all too often comes up against.It seems that my crime has been to call a spade a shovel.
Last edited by Blackshift; 20th Aug 2004 at 18:53.
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Career loans
I may be wrong, LGS6753, but i think the maximum these guys will lend you is £8k. I don't know what career that will develop but certainly not ours.
I went down the HSBC route. Initially they refused my application for a loan but I kept going back. I made a thorough business plan and spoke with the branch manager. Eventually they cracked...
I think half the test of being an airline pilot is seeing if you can make it through all the s
t and get out the other side. It is a test of character and also it shows that you really do want it.So if you are sure this is what you want to do (and it sounds like you are), don't give up and don't let them grind you down,
HG
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Yeah right!
Not saying this does not apply to any extent, especially to those who occupy either extreme of the generally accepted standards of professional competence, but it is both a poor generalisation and a massive over-simplification - I personally know of more counter-examples to that than you could shake a stick at.
Being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people ( ie the old adage "who you know, not what you know") is at least as important.
...as many of those who have made it to the flying job of their dreams have the modesty to attest.
Not saying this does not apply to any extent, especially to those who occupy either extreme of the generally accepted standards of professional competence, but it is both a poor generalisation and a massive over-simplification - I personally know of more counter-examples to that than you could shake a stick at.
Being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people ( ie the old adage "who you know, not what you know") is at least as important.
...as many of those who have made it to the flying job of their dreams have the modesty to attest.
Last edited by Blackshift; 19th Aug 2004 at 22:44.
