Atlas transition from FE to FO
 

Atlas Pilots:

Years ago you're airline had the best program in the industry for PFE's who got their pilot ratings to transition to the left seat. Was wondering how this program has worked out and was wondering if there were any limitations for PFE's who do not have their ATP to fly the 744. Thanks for your time.

ATI, Emery, and Gemini had good ones too

Atlas Air
 

The program is still in place, we currently have a few former FE's now transitioning to FO's in the school house as we speak. It's a great opportunity, but they go to the Classic first, and then can bid the 400 in time.:ok:

Yeah, I worked with a few AMT's in the 90's who both went from flight mech to FE having 500-700 hrs PP time under their belts, flew as much as they could + 500 hrs FE time applied and made FO at ATP minimums. It worked out great for them.

I allways thought it unique for a private pilot to have his first commercial pilot job flying a 747 within a matter of a few years, the whole time making decent money.

There IS a problem with this on the Atlas side . . . at least in my opinion. Here's the scenario. Let's say you were a F.E. for ten years then finally decide to move to the right seat. Well, guess what? Sure, you can do that all right but I'll bet ya don't know what happens to your seniority. Bueller?? Anyone??? You go to the BOTTOM of the F.O. list as the F.E. list is completely seprate. So you give up all that seniority for bidding. Tell me that's not a kick in the shorts.

Don't know what crewmember originally thought of this but talk about F'ing your buddy! Wow. You can imagine that cockpit. Sorry dude you're good enough to sit sideways but when it comes to touching the yoke you're not good enough. What a joke! Yes, I know some of you might start the debate of not enough experience. But if the check airman checks them out on the airplane then they're qualified. End of story.

At the majors a seniority number was a seniority number -- period. From what I understand . . .no, what i know is, it's the same way on the Polar side of the house -- at least for now.

You can always quit!
 

Your screen name says it all, if you don't like it, you can always find a job somewhere else. If you had been at a MAJOR like you say, you would have been at the panel for 10 - 15 years before you saw the right seat anyway. Maybe in that time you might have gotten some experience in something other than a 152 or a Seneca. 98% of the FE upgrades at Atlas have had no PIC time in anything other than a light twin. Just because you pass a line check with a check airman does not mean you are ready to command an 800000+ lb jet around the world. Suffice it to say, your comment on experience alone proves my point.

FR8

To say that seniority alone provides the level of safety required to take on the responsibility of a PIC is a bit foolish and that remains true regardless of what seat you sit in.

keep it in perspective..
 

The Atlas upgrade progran for PFE's has been a godsend for many, including myself. The increased job opportunities ( PFE's versus Type Rated 747 Pilots ) and front seat view has changed my life. The loss of DOH seniority regarding bidding truly sucks. I had to change equiptment twice to keep my base, where my DOH seniority would have allowed me to keep it. However, we do keep our DOH longevity regarding pay. And afterall, that is why I fly ($). For me, the benefits of the program FAR, FAR outweigh the downside. Atlas has bent over backward for more than a few PFE's, and should be recognised for their effort.
A very humble Captain. Fly safe.

A perfectly respectful and reasonable reply.
At many overseas aircarriers, where the PFE ungraded to F/O, he went on the bottom of the F/O list.
Was this 'fair'?
Well, it certainly was to the long serving First Officers, that's for sure.
And, I didn't hear many complaints from the PFE's either...they retained a job.:}

And no, I did not go the PFE route, rather, directly into the LHS of a heavy jet in 1975.
I was fortunate, right place, right time.

FE to FO
 

DBW, First Step & 411A

Words of wisdom from true professional aviators! Renews my faith!

Thank you.
It is my opinion that long serving crew not be disadvantaged...provided however that other long serving crew are not cast aside, in the shuffle.

Dumbdumb, You neglect to mention that pilots without a FE line number moved to the bottom of the FE seniority list if they decided to make the move to FE when they reached 60 (soon to be 65) This protected the seniority of the PFEs that joined Atlas with no intention of becoming pilots. Can you imagine how many pilots would have made the move to the FE seat if they could have retained their seniority when they reached 60? Maybe even you were one of the PFEs that benefited from this rule?

So why the Classic first?
 

I hear ya about the seniority issue, good argument on both sides. I believe a fair compromise would be to let the FE's hold their seniority but they would not be eligible for Captain upgrade until they had 3-4000 hrs in the RT seat.

But why must they go to the classic first? Is it because they can't do IRO duty on the 744? I don't believe there is any other stipulation in the FAR's that require a ATP type other than IRO duty? Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.

2 Lists?
 

If there are 2 lists, there are 2 lists. Isn't that what was signed up for by all? I don't know; Teamsters, ALPA or in-house, but I would imagine rules are rules, agree with them or not.

Look at it this way, could be working or could have worked for a company that did not move from back seat to right seat.

As far as moving into the left seat, if you meet the company mins. and can do it, you should be given the chance (if union, union rules permitting), whether 12 months or 60 months in the right seat. :D

Forget...
 

I understand (and agree though) with the 'selectively hand picked' part (still don't know if union, or if any 'rules' in place....), but with an ATP and 737 type, difficult to comprehend. Unfortunately, we have all seen how some forget how and where they started. Perhap's the case here? I guess 8, 10, 12 or 16 thousand hours FE time mean nothing. I feel your pain, ship........ If you fancy, give Midex in the UAE a ring.

"But why must they go to the classic first? Is it because they can't do IRO duty on the 744?"

Hard enough of a transition to go from C-152/172 to the Classic, where the former PFE already knows the systems, limitations, and most of the SOP's from reading the checklist over all those years, but still have to get the feel for actually FLYING the airplane. So why make life more difficult by adding the glass cockpit?

Plus Atlas training program on the -400 requires some jet time (2500 hours???) to get the CA type rating to be used as relief pilot, so PFE's would not qualify. A few (3?) FO's have been hired onto the -400 who do not meet this, but a lot would create scheduling problems. Most Classic flights are basic crew, so not an issue.

And do you really want the poor guy/gal to just get 1 or 2 landings a month on the -400, where they will never really get proficient? Hopefully, will get more hands-on time and cycles on the Classic.

Reply by FR8: Your screen name says it all, if you don't like it, you can always find a job somewhere else. If you had been at a MAJOR like you say, you would have been at the panel for 10 - 15 years before you saw the right seat anyway. Maybe in that time you might have gotten some experience in something other than a 152 or a Seneca. 98% of the FE upgrades at Atlas have had no PIC time in anything other than a light twin. Just because you pass a line check with a check airman does not mean you are ready to command an 800000+ lb jet around the world. Suffice it to say, your comment on experience alone proves my point.

FR8

Maybe you need to borrow my screen name since you're showing some, no a lot of ignorance. For one, you can't find a quality job somewhere else as I don't know if you have noticed -- probably because you need to pull your head out of your posterior end -- but there have been a lot of furloughs lately. Don't forget the job losses as well from airlines going under. No reason to tell you where, as you should be able to figure that out by yourself.

I WAS at the Majors and saw firsthand how in a little over year folks were able to move from the F.E. seat to the right seat of a 727. Now, by no fault of my own, I'm on a furlough status. This was happening as recently as 2002 before the birds were sent to the dessert. Again, by all means please use my screen name.

There are a lot of guys/gals out there that had zero PIC time flying RJ's during an upgrade, flew turboprops, etc. How else do you get that PIC time? You gotta get in the seat don't ya?

Comment experience? Are you nucking futs???? Twenty three years in the industry, five type ratings to include the 737, 747, 747-400 and thousands of hours in the both seats.

How do you think you get experience? You sit in the seat and get it -- Period. Does that mean that a type rating gives you the "experience" to command a jet around the world as you put it? No. However, sitting in the right seat after sitting sidesaddle with a RIGHTFUL seniority number is an obvious yes. And before you assume, again, I did not sit in the F.E. seat. I only think it's wrong to put a different number on a person sitting behind you.

Something tells me that you're one of those "I AM CAPTAIN HERE ME ROAR TYPES" If you're in the left seat at all. But unlike yourself, I will not make any assumptions about you or your experience.

Again, please, by all means use my screen name. :)

Go ahead an respond you get the last word.

As for DeltaBravoWiskey -- no need to respond to your post as I already know your stance and your views as you're one of those that was on the bandwagon for the Teamsters. What a nice mess it is now with not enough money to pay bills and an assesment coming. Real smart on that one. Hope it worked out for you individually (which I'm sure it did) as you didn't show any team playing on that vote, either.

Lost in translation...
 

dumbdumb

What is your point?. Other than using this forum to rant ( you would not be alone, true ) you seem to have lost ME in what your point is?. Are you pissed off that as a pilot ( assuming with Atlas ) who transitioned from the FE seat you lost your DOH seniority, and now your furloughed?. Or because you can't hold a base you want, or mabye not the lines you want?. And you mention multiple type ratings, soooo, were you hired as an FE with all that heavy time???. And if you ARE on furlough, with that heavy time, look up, were hiring. I mean I thought we recalled all pilots already. Were even pulling some -200 out of the desert.
If I misunderstood your thread ( yes, I'm easily confused ), and you are a furloughed FE, you have to be kicking yourself (at least a little) in the ass for not getting upgraded ( sooner ). I mean, the whole industry has been retiring older airplanes with the 3rd guy for years now. Atlas has been proclaiming their retirement for +5 years now ( mabye a lot like crying Wolf ), so it cant be a suprise.
I do agree with you in the "experience" thread. How much you learn depends on willingness to learn and motivation, not just time in seat. I learned a lot watching all the mistakes the FO's made from the FE seat ( best seat in the house for a Critic ), and sure, when I was upgraded I demonstrated all those mistakes and more. Lots more.
Fly safe.

First Step,

No, I'm employed. I'm on the Polar side of the fence.

My point is I think it's wrong to put the F.E.'s on a seperate seniority list. Nothing more. The other part of the rant was only to let the others know I am speaking from a little experience when they were challenging I was some kid sitting in school and spouting off.

Have a great Holiday weekend.