PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Freight Dogs (https://www.pprune.org/freight-dogs-41/)
-   -   Cargolux details requested! (https://www.pprune.org/freight-dogs/205896-cargolux-details-requested.html)

acmi48 6th Oct 2012 03:32

CV was betrayed during the mid 2000's anti trust hearings, this is the penalty they now pay, the employees are very concerned , cost cutting should be top down and not the other way ..

TheRednosedReindeer 9th Oct 2012 11:59

Ok, but how do we know that this Oliver Wymon is actually the one doing the analysis for CV?? Sources please!

Then again, it was announced yesterday or so, that BIL (formerly owned by troublesome DEXIA) has now definitely been bought by Precision Capital (=the Qataris) at 90%, with the remaining 10% chipped in by LUX government.

Is this good news, because it removes one trump card from the Qatari's hand (they were threatening to pull out of LUX altogether)? Or bad news because now they control that bank (which is however, as far as I get it, mainly involved with private banking)?

HURZ 9th Oct 2012 12:21

source please
An interoffice memo stated that Oliver Wyman will do the review.

sled dog 11th Oct 2012 07:27

Local media reporting today that CV have been advised to outsource a/c maintenance . Also that Forson is expected to become fulltime CEO. Oh dear..........

Pow-wow 11th Oct 2012 15:41

That is not correct at all !

Local media are reporting that nothing was decided about the outsourcing of maintenance at all.

They said it was one of the discussion points on today's agenda.

Nothing has been decided as the audit by the wonderful Wyman group is not complete yet, and that involves looking at a possible fleet restructuring for Cargolux. Until this is assessed, no decision can be taken anyway on whether or not maintenance is outsourced or what maintenance is need at LUX.

The only thing that the local media have reported as "apparently decided" is that there will be a collective work agreement based on the basic luxembourgish social parameters and that all employees would receive a basic salary. Any increases would be purely performance based - according to the media. They also claim that leave will be the legal minimum required by Luxembourg and no extra/additional days, and that the 13th month salary would be dropped.

I would take all this with great caution, as the media have and will misconstrue facts, whether by accident, misinformation or negligence or speculation.

Dont get me wrong, I am not taking any sides here, but I think its always a good idea not to jump to conclusion or scaremonger. This website alone pays tribute to the media misreporting all the time.

Sorry, havnt found an english version yet:

Wort.lu - Cargolux: Nächste Woche geht's weiter

Tageblatt Online - Runder Tisch am 23. Oktober - Luxemburg

Alcione 11th Oct 2012 17:02

Rumours rumours,

Seems to me that they are using the media in order to demolish the employees, and specially the pilots. They threat to outsource and then they offer a new agreement, with lower conditions. Fantastic ! Thanks bwana !!

The pilots are always the piece to sacrifice, in order to "save" the fellows of the office, that do nothing. I'm pissed off; our terms and conditions have been agreed after many many years.

Performance based pay... bullshit !!. They will increase the conditions until they are unreachable. In the mean time, their bonuses are going to increase exponentially. We are going to loose family life, quality of life and money for nothing. Even qatar is competing with us in certain routes.:=

This is pathetic. :ugh: They want the employees to pay for the management mistakes; price collusion, selling aircrafts and the dry lease BCFs, sell aircrafts to competitors, and purchase an airplane that you can't pay, and that nowadays is useless, and the list goes on !!:ugh:

Instead of trying to fix and make a sound plan, they screw employees and contract Oliver Wymann's inquiry. :D Surely, like in the CDO's case, if they make a mistake, they are going to be punished. Sure. Are we serious ???

sled dog 11th Oct 2012 17:14

Interesting article on current www.cargoforwarder.net

South Prince 12th Oct 2012 07:05

Any clue if the little Cargolux south of the alps is affected by the ongoing "debate"?

alby2000 13th Oct 2012 16:39

Cargolux Italia
South Prince,
My understanding of this whole matter is that Cargolux mainline is on a cost cutting drive that involves all phases of the production line and all sides of the value chain.
The rumor I've heard from my friends in Cargolux Italia is that actually this whole situation in Luxembourg may turn out to be beneficial to them. They are at a "make it or break it" moment and it's either they grow into something bigger than one airplane operating charter flights on behalf of their Luxembourgish mother or in my opinion it would be hard to maintain a financially viable and profitable operation over time, especially taking into account the present low yields across the aircargo industry and a general contraction in the airfreight market.
By reading the articles on the subject available on the internet, it is pretty clear the new CEO wants to bring costs down while increasing the productivity in a (possibly) non-unionized environment. Cargolux Italia is already meeting all these requirements so it might actually be that all the "job outsourcing/expenses containment" idea may not include Qatar or involve Qatar Airways at all, but instead may be related to a transfer of airplanes and manpower to their Italian low cost subsidiary.
My two cents on the topic.
Ciao, alby

Pow-wow 14th Oct 2012 08:27

Hello alby,

I think that may be a little bit too much wishful thinking.

Are you saying that Cargolux Italia will be operating all the current Cargolux aircraft out of Milan or Luxembourg ?
Because I dont quite see how the whole operation would work successfully from Milan !?!
What about pilots to fly the aircraft ? How many non Cargolux guys are 747-8 rated ?!?

I'm sorry but it makes no sense what so ever !

Honestly, at the moment I think the focus is on Cargolux at Luxembourg, and making it more competitive (apparently)

The articles on the internet now range from anything involving Cargolux operating with 4 aircraft and masses of pilots being laid off, to fleet restructuring and maintenance being outsourced.

Personally I think the articles are the result of misinformed employees and some clever managers leaking bogus information to the media to create all this hype and scaremongering.

At this time absolutely no one in the work force knows for sure what the hell is going on, because the powers that be have done something very clever already.

If you want to control any group of people, the easiest way to do it is FEAR !
You tell them that their jobs, livelihood, families and financial situation is in danger, and people start panicking !
You do this with the media, which is the most powerful tool nowadays.
Once you have put the worst possible scenarios in the media, you then do absolutely nothing !
No communication with the workforce, no meetings (apart from top level closed door ones), no information !
This creates even more outrageous rumours fuelling the fear and panic.

By this stage people are expecting the absolute worst from the situation, and anything that the management bring to the table after this will "not seem that bad".
Everyone is glad to "have a job" and completely forgets how many long fought for perks and conditions have been lost, because the relief of keeping their jobs pushes all that into the background.

Also have a look at this man's view of things:


For all of our sakes, Cargolux and Cargolux Italia, I hope that people retain some common sense and that we dont just become more pawns in a political and financial pissing ground !

alby2000 14th Oct 2012 09:16

Hi Pow-Wow,
I'll try to clarify. Based on the conversations I had with friends working for ICV, they are expecting this situation in Luxembourg to help them in their quest of business success, which as you know it has been tarnished by numerous political and financial issues. The idea is to take advantage of the Italian "lower cost" structure and position extra 400s in MXP while offering pilots, that in LUX could have lost their job, to continue working on the same airplane, under the Cargolux umbrella but under the Italian terms and conditions, which are less precious and valuable than the Cargolux mainline ones.
Since I don't work for any of the two companies, nor for Qatar Airways, apologies if this does't sound accurate enough, although I felt i could contribute by giving a little heads up about what's cooking also on the other side of the Alps. On one thing I do agree 100% with you: they are putting up a "divide and conquer" type of strategy. Best option is to wait up together, let the storm pass and do a damage assessment afterwards. Taking any decision or position at this time would be hasty and probably wrong because it would be based on rumors and not on any checked fact.
Good luck. Ciao!

South Prince 14th Oct 2012 11:22

Hi there Alby. Do I get it right? ICV guys hope that out of all the "restructuring" in mailine LUX they will get a "Bonus" moving most of Cargolux business in Milan?

alby2000 14th Oct 2012 11:53

Hi South Prince,
I wouldn't really call it a bonus but most likely a "boost" to their current activity. Also, I would personally doubt that moving, as you say, most of the Cargolux business to Milan is viable scenario. The assumption is that it is a cost cutting exercise. Therefore, since the yields are low on certain routes of the mainline network, one of the ways to go is to have the least productive routes to be operated by Cargolux Italia which, thanks to their lower cost base, they can maximize the revenues (or contain the losses) while maintaining the position as a global player. But again, this is my understanding from a couple of long chats with some friends and therefore is as valuable as anybody else's point of view. It sounds plausible to me and may also represent a win-win situation for both business units, but whether or not it will turn out to be a feasible option, it's not my call.

Pow-wow 14th Oct 2012 14:39

Hello again alby,

Thanks, I understand now what you are saying. I respect your point of view, and of course its a valid opinion, but I still have trouble seeing it as a viable option right now.

By the looks of things, the current movement seems to be about any of the following factors:

Cutting the fat off Cargolux's operations, staff, network and getting rid of a long running "gravy train" that in certain departments must be costing the company a fortune !

Qatar systematically taking over Cargolux's routes, rights and customers. At the same time using their expertise to set Qatar up nicely.

Qatar establishing itself perfectly in a global cargo market, where it was lacking behind on its competitiors - Emirates and Ethihad.

Personally, I think they are out to do just about anything they need to, to get the last point done ! They are in fierce competition with the other operators down there to take a share of the cargo market.
So what better way, then to use Cargolux as your european hub, copy its expertise, utilise its route network and at the same time finding somewhere to use those rumoured 30+ A330 pax aircraft ready for cargo conversions.

All this should tie in nicely with the opening of the new cargo centre down in Doha this year on 12.12.12. Coincidence that they are here ?!? Nope !

Sorry but looking at all other scenarios, this one seems the most likely to me. Thats why I find the whole Cargolux Italia scenario implausible.
I believe they are concentrating their efforts at Cargolux in Luxembourg and the Doha cargo operation of Qatar and new cargo centre there.
I have no idea what this ultimately means For all of us at Cargolux and Cargolux Italia. And I am certainly no expert on any of this. This is only my opinion based on what little we have been told and what little common sense I still have ;) I am probably completely wrong !

So you can see that they have achieved the perfect storm. No one knows for sure where the ship is headed right now and there is precious little information coming from the helmsmen.

I agree with you, that right now everyone needs to stick together and not panic. If they should achieve any "divide and rule" then we are already at step one of getting shafted !

Alcione 14th Oct 2012 18:32

There are lots of rumors, so you have to be careful.

Speaking about Cargolux Italia, Why would you outsource to Italy ? Is much cheaper to outsorce to other cheaper places, most of them out of Europe.

Something is cooking behind the scenes, and still to early to see the final outcome. A lot of dust have to settle down. What is clear is that there is a cultural clash among the shareholders.

If I understand well the concept of joint venture, it's like to put in a basket joint resources, and then divide the outcome according to the agreement. If you put 50 per cent of the resources, you get a 50 per cent of the profit or losses.

So if that's correct, means that the unprofitable routes are dealt with the smaller airplane. Keep in mind, as well, that the acquisition of qatar is pending of approval from the EU/USA. So somehow, this may be another cause.

What is absolutely truth is that the 747-8 has brought, in my understanding the need for a second fleet. Having 140 tm of capacity is good on certain routes, but why use a -8 to carry 105 tm or less ? Nothing is as efficient as a twin engine aircraft. There is no question about having the Jumbo. Cargolux means Jumbo, but not all the aircraft have to be jumbos. Having smaller airplanes protect the company for the downturns, while the bigger capacity is needed in the upturns. The difficult part is assessing how many and when to purchase them.

Qatar can fill such needs, plus traffic rights, plus negotiation power, plus plenty of cash. So the second fleet doesn't have to be from CLX !!

Clx can offer expertise, good location and knowhow.:ok: But the deal has to done, and shareholders have to understand each other. This is the beginning, later comes other decisions, like CWA, outsourcings, CVI, etc:hmm:

Tank2Engine 14th Oct 2012 19:37

...the least productive routes to be operated by Cargolux Italia which, thanks to their lower cost base...
Eh, lower cost base ? Is it really fair to compare the cost base of CLX to that of ICV ?

How much ICV is paying in leasing fees for KCV ? How much money do they spend on marketing, maintenance, on a sales team etc etc ? ;)

GlueBall 15th Oct 2012 09:08

..."How many non Cargolux guys are 747-8 rated ?!?"
Why would this matter?

...It's like asking: How many former non Airbus guys are now A380 rated?

Pow-wow 15th Oct 2012 11:43

GlueBall, I dont understand what you are trying to say !

The reason I asked the question was twofold.

Non of the Cargolux Italia guys are 747-8 rated !

All the pilots at Cargolux are now 747-8 rated.
So if anyone wanted to outsource the pilots/crew then they would have to find 747-8 rated pilots to be able to keep the operation going.

Not too many of those around yet, unless you know any different !?!

My point was that they would have to give all the Cargolux Italia pilots -8 ratings and in the mean time who would fly the aircraft ???

Pow-wow 15th Oct 2012 12:47

Some more good questions:


WhaleDriver 15th Oct 2012 14:24

GSS are all -8 rated and Atlas is just about done qualifiying 1000 pilots on the -8.

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:20.

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.