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GSS morale misery

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GSS morale misery

Old 4th Jul 2012, 18:59
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GSS morale misery

GSS at Stansted the B747 operation which always pleads poverty yet had three 370 million dollar brand new -8's, replacing their 400's, flying freight on behalf of BA, is continued to be run into the ground by the incumbent chief pilot - a pilot hating individual with zero personal skills, who has now reached a new low.

This ex-Cathay cancerous assassin is now taking a leaf from Ryanair's book; he is now offering B747 courses for a debt of £9000 a pilot - taken out in their name, and they hate him for it and the job itself, a crap salary going nowhere, economy travel on duty, no staff travel at all and 'selected' clubby command upgrades; one new joiner described it as the worst job he's ever had and wants his money back, although the C.P. expects plenty of takers.

It's one of the lowest if not 'the' paid jobs in the UK; below secretary money. The Cathay regime of 'all checking and no training' is alive and well and increasing. The rumour is that the pilots are going to get a letter together independent of the ineffective balpa, and lobby BA to get him to resign when he reaches 65, not long from now, citing the company's survival with him at the helm.

Just as when he left Cathay, there was a party amongst the crews, so there will be in GSS if ever the day arrives when he walks.
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Old 4th Jul 2012, 21:02
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You make it sound like they've gone out and bought the -8F's themselves. The dry least costs from Atlas are obviously higher than the -400F's but so will the wet-lease charge to BAWC.
If you don't like it why don't you leave? I'm sure someone would love to step into your shoes and fly a shiney -8F, even if it did cost them £9000 and a piss-poor salary??
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Old 4th Jul 2012, 21:33
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If you don't like it why don't you leave? I'm sure someone would love to step into your shoes and fly a shiney -8F, even if it did cost them £9000 and a piss-poor salary??
And that argument FM, is why the airline industry, both pax and cargo (and I've flown for both), is going down the crapper!
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Old 4th Jul 2012, 21:47
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posted very few times but

Flight Mech, you really are a nasty piece of work. I don't work in the airline business but I despise you & your cancerous ilk.

OUT

Last edited by carlrsymington; 4th Jul 2012 at 21:48.
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Old 4th Jul 2012, 22:09
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GSS morale misery

My second comment was out of order and I apologise. However carlrsymington, if you're not in the business then you don't really qualify to make comments such as yours
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 01:53
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Cathay taught SM well and he is well qualified to run an airline (MBA etc) and is generally a knowledgeable person. What his brief was from BA when he took over as CP is a matter between him and his employer, but a fundemental model will be the Cathay one (excepting the length of the command upgrade course - GSS is much shorter) and CPA are on a race to the bottom regarding conditions at all levels but especially in freight.
The point is this is now a job that is in terminal decline as far as respect from employers is concerned. The only workable solution seems to have a very strong union,work for the national carrier and be prepared to shut the operation down if necessary. Employers will only turn the corner when they can't fill the operating seats and that's going to take forever. Sorry.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 10:25
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Midnight Cruiser, a slight correction: "he is dealing with some persistent poor performers, and not before time." They are mainly and almost exclusively senior F/O's that won't make command; BA has plenty of them as well.
The C.P has manipulated pay and commands and ever since he's been in charge with fewer and fewer BA old boys to stop his excesses. For example, Obliging pilots to take a pay-cut and freeze to save jobs; almost within a month the GSS management including himself get a fat bonus.
An able pilot up for command who apparently was not a 'company man' in the past by reputation, was told to pass 3 checks to be considered, which he did including a command check. He was then refused a command course by the C P. He had nowhere to go, no recourse and so was obliged to leave.
At the same time, and going against the advice of his own trainers a new BA secondee was given 3 or more successive final command checks until he past, because CP wanted him. There was also a rumour that the CP told an eminent trainer to mark the other guy down which apparently was refused.
Curiously this same eminent and much loved trainer was refused a new -8 course himself; possibly reserved for the CP when he reaches 65?
What is strongly rumoured however, is everyone is marked down by one category after this popular trainer sends in his reports. So that 2 becomes a 3, and 3 a 4 and so on.
Something is rotten is the State of Denmark.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 00:58
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Attitudes and Expectations - Keep Them In Check

Sounds like GSS is a job for those who cannot find another job (i.e., lost a job and cannot find one due to the economy) - or they are just fans of the 747 who are also gluttons for punishment. Given that GSS has such a poor repuation for terms/culture/morale, I cannot understand why anyone would consider staying LONGER than the training bond requirement. Just get your 747-800 experience, see the world (check the destination boxes with some serious fatigue) and then find a better job with a marketable 747 type rating... Go in with the right attitude and the expectation that you will leave down the road. You will then feel a lot less stressed...

From what I have heard, don't expect to go to GSS and then change it much for the better. Why try to push a river uphill? Unfortunately, sounds like that culture focuses on cheapness and low margin freight flying. Sadly, this is the state of many airlines around the world where pilots are not considered professionals who deserve competitive wages.

Quite a shame that GSS is really this bad according to the many voices on this and other forums - it has the potential to be a great job with interesting/varied flying and excellent equipment. Too bad pilots are given no respect in this case (although quite common these days). Pilots qualified to fly the 747-800F should not have to worry so much about paying their basic mortgages (or divorce alimony combined with mortgages given these rosters).

So, to reiterate, I wouldn't go there and expect to make any money. Just try to set your expectations accordingly. Instead, go in like a mercinary and get your type rating, get some good international flight experience and hours, and then find a better job. Stay until you can find a better job (maybe look at the ME or Asia for starters as your training bond is almost paid off) and then leave it behind. Change your attitude/perspective and treat it like the temporary job it should be! Pilots = mercinaries these days.

Last edited by Iver; 6th Jul 2012 at 01:32.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 06:38
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Just in the interests of a bit of balance, from one who presently works there;

The new aircraft come from Atlas, and the operating costs are passed on to the customer. GSS is an ACMI operation.

Piss off the boss in any airline or any company and you are going to find that your prospects fall short of those who have kept thir heads down.

Those who have been denied commands, and they are only a handful, are in general below average performers. There are or have been a couple of exceptions but they are or were individuals who could be best described as their own worst enemies. One has left and I wish him the very best in his new position. I would further advise that he wind his neck in and keep Schtum in his own best interest. The other individual will get another shot as the person so reviled by Munchkin is retiring shortly. At 65 a -8 conversion will be of little value to either him or the company.

The Secondee arrangement is a disgrace but it is made perfectly clear to anyone who is offered a position. If you can't cope with it, don't join.

Positioning in economy only happens when the flights are full and really only affects a couple of routes. Yes it is a pain in the butt but not a weekly event. I have had to do it once in the last 18 months and I could have happily strangled someone but I lived to fight another day. Should it be changed? Definitely. Will it be changed? Not in my lifetime. The much reviled SM is trying to have things improved as are BALPA but the fact of the matter is that GSS operating crew rank below junior BA cabin crew and retirees on golfing jollies. The day it all gets too much I shall retire. Assuming that they day I cannot mount the ladder to the upper deck does not arrive first.

Company investigator , if you have any documentary proof that sim grades are being fiddled, please pass it on to BALPA. I have often wondered why Captains score 1 when an FO gets a 2 for a similar level of performance but such things are not confined to GSS. A TRE mate of mine alluded to the fact that companies are concerned that in the event of an incident, a Captain who has poorer grades would invite the attentions of the authorities so they tend to get away with more. FOs are being assessed as potential commanders and so are the focus of more critical attention.

There are one or two, generally domiciled on the European mainland, who are rotten timekeepers and who have tended to bunk off when it suits putting all the pressure on the standby crews.SM has indeed come crashing down on them and rightly so.

The pay is not the best, but things are starting to improve with the introduction of flight pay and there is an automatic annual increase up to pp12. Again it is not a secret, if the wages will not cover your outgoings, look somewhere else.
Please do not go away with the impression that GSS is full of no hopers who cannot find employment anywhere else. That is simply untrue and such an attitude would not get you very far in an interview scenario, as a couple of Secondee hopefuls found out and full marks to SM for not letting the door hit them in the arse on the way out.

So to sum up. GSS not perfect but compared to some out there, not the worst by a long chalk. A look through these forums would soon put you right on that score. Some supposed paradises, such as another 74 operator with red tails are much, much worse both in terms of lifestyle and command prospects, not to mention a vicious and military orientated training system. The majority of those I work and sit in far flung bars with are fairly content. Those that are not go elsewhere and we all move one place up the greasy pole as a result.

The whole industry is in a death spiral at the moment. GSS is small and under the radar and long may it remain so.I would rather be here than in an IT operator at the present, wondering ifvI will have job next month, better here with the time to sit by the pool typing this dribble than working 5 sector days with 20 minute turn arounds for some crazed LOCO or waiting 20 years for a command that may never happen because I never flew single seat FJ and don't roll up my left trouser leg. Horses for courses. It will do me until I fall over foaming or can no longer get my suitcase up the steps and I am not alone in this view.

All the best to all.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 11:00
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The Secondee arrangement is a disgrace
Playing devil's advocate, you could argue that a bunch of pilots opting to fly 'BA work' on lower Ts&Cs is a disgrace. The secondee arrangement is a compromise - quite a reasonable one if you ask me.

Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 6th Jul 2012 at 11:02.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 11:14
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So, an honest and up-to-date opinion from zeddb, a current employee, regarding the state of play at GSS right now. As he says, the situation is made clear on interview. If you don't like it, don't join. The OP obviously has a beef and it's not "economy travel on duty" unless your unlucky enough to end up on a flight in no club/first space. Unfortunately with the current state of the industry someone will always take the job at the current T&C's which is the point i was trying to make earlier.

Playing devil's advocate, you could argue that a bunch of pilots opting to fly 'BA work' on lower Ts&Cs is a disgrace.
Not really, if BA decide not to operate their own dedicated freighters and out-source to someone else then it's free for the taking surely. Do you have the same opinion of DHL who fly alot of BAWC's intra-european freight??

I've never really understood why BA didn't lease the aircraft directly from Atlas and operate themselves, especially when they have the crew and maintenance infrastructure already in place for the type (well in the case of the original -400's anyway) Again, i guess it's ££££

Last edited by Flightmech; 6th Jul 2012 at 11:48.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 11:58
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if BA decide not to operate their own dedicated freighters and out-source to someone else then it's free for the taking surely.
BA are free to do lots of things. For the sake of industrial harmony they tend to consult with the BACC when it comes to matters regarding pilots. The compromise that was reached when BA decided to outsource the flying of much of it's cargo was the secondee agreement. That agreement is no more/less disgraceful than GSS pilots choosing to fly BA cargo at a lower rate than BA pilots.

We all live in the real world - I harbour no ill will against any GSS pilots, however I've got no time for anyone who would take issue with me should I bid for a GSS secondment.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:17
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Bus driver,

I harbour no ill will against the command secondees. They are to a man thouroughly decent and nice to fly with. They are that way because our much maligned DFO screens them to ensure that arrogant arses don't get past the interview stage.

As for the system itself, well if you are looking in from BA mainline with your seniority intact and the best conditions in the uk then it must seem great. If I were a BA SFO I would grab it with both hands. From the perspective of GSS, well maybe not so great when you are rapidly running out of years for your one and only shot which external conditions such as multiple redundancies have denied you. But hey, life's a bitch.

The argument that GSS would not exist without BA is a valid one but as flight mech mentioned, DHL also carry BA cargo and BA secondees are noticeable by their absence over there.

If you apply to be a Secondee then the very best of luck. I would had life and luck been kinder. You'll need to abandon the bus though and spend some time over on the coal burning fleet first. Just have a thought for those who have never had the opportunities afforded those lucky enough to be in BA and who would like a couple of years in the sunlight before retirement.

Last edited by zeddb; 6th Jul 2012 at 12:26.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 13:49
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I think everyone knows that the secondee issue was a "deal-sweetener" when flying rights meant that Atlas could no longer fly their N-registered Chelsea Rose 747 with US crews for BA and GSS were formed. You would have thought that after 10 years of operation it would no longer be necessary.
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Old 11th Jul 2012, 18:03
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Everyone is told the terms and conditions when they join GSS so if they don't like it why sign up in the first place? I don't think the moral is too bad at GSS. It's a dream from the circus I worked for before. I've had economy about 4 times in 5 years which I can't complain about. Salary is low but last year I flew 400 hours. Go fly for BA if you want more money. Sure you will get double the pay but you will work twice as hard also. Every company has its challenges and sure we don't all always agree with decisions that are made. Seems this post was started by one of those agony aunts that you have to endure on a trip, holding up the bar and complaining who will never be happy no matter where he is or whatever company he is in. I agree with one of the earlier posts. If you hate it so much then do us all a favour and leave. You probably part of the small contingent of "dead wood" in the company that needs to be gotten rid of anyway. Maybe some previous CX methods should be drawn on to achieve this. I have spoken to several ex secondees who would come back in a heart beat. GSS certainly isnt the worst place, not the best but then how much do you expect from a company with 3 planes? On the whole I think GSS is great.
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Old 11th Jul 2012, 18:20
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Munchkin, if you so dissatisfied have you spoken to management about your concerns or are you one of the usual guys that loves to moan and complain on track but never bother to stick your head above the parapet? Seems like you know a bit about Cathay. Maybe you should go there. (or go back there). You may fit in there well as I have never spoken to a satisfied CX pilot yet. Lots of politics there for you to get your teeth into. Don't think it's GSS morale misery. It seems as though it's your own morale misery.
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Old 12th Jul 2012, 22:40
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Thumbs down

Girls and Munchkin time to stop the bitching.If you feel so strongly about a company why would you stay? Leave and Im sure GSS would hold a party but you may not get a picture ( nothing personal just cost saving you understand) .To make libellous statements about an individual who cannot defend himself is cowardly .Glad to see you got more response than you did to your last thread on 10th July .Same post different day !
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Old 13th Jul 2012, 15:56
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I worked at GSS a few years ago and must say that I quite enjoyed my time there. The people were very nice to work with and I only left because of better basing opportunities and yes - much better pay.

There are downsides to any job and the Airline Industry is not what it used to be, but as they say: you create your own experience.

SM is a very knowledgable man and I can see why he would get annoyed with someone, who does not actively prepare for checks or all line flights in a professional manner. And there were a few.

I can assure you, that GSS is nothing like CX when it comes to checking....so chill.
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Old 11th Aug 2012, 20:02
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Zeddb

"The argument that GSS would not exist without BA is a valid one but as flight mech mentioned, DHL also carry BA cargo and BA secondees are noticeable by their absence over there"

Yes, but DHL carry freight for numerous customers yet GSS has one customer - BA. Thus the secondee arrangement.

I agree that Munchkin (everyone knows who he is) paints a pretty dim picture. At the end of the day, employees are flying a stunning aircraft, worldwide with a friendly bunch of colleagues and there are far less desirable jobs out there.

ATB

Last edited by A340Yumyum; 11th Aug 2012 at 20:04.
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Old 12th Aug 2012, 12:57
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GSS morale misery

As I've already stated I'm sure the secondee arrangement was considered a deal sweetener when the BAWC/GSS operation was inaugurated, with BAWC being the only customer and GSS feeling pressure to accept it. However, several contract renewals later and with GSS just celebrating their 10 year anniversary I would have thought there should have been some way of ridding themselves of the secondee issue by removing it from the contract. However, relying on a single customer in a business that is in a downturn then they're probably leaning over a barrel.
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