Atlas/AABO

[Fr8Dog]

Impartial

"Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman"

Does the word oxymoron mean anything to you?

[WhaleFR8]

Hey Mean Joe - are you enjoying yourself.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

#242 (permalink) joetommy

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: new york
Posts: 53


SALE
Heard Polar was sold today. Anyone else hear that?


Yeah...a group headed by Bob Henderson financed the deal. It's called "BA"...Bobbbbbb Air

[BELOWMINS]

That isn't what I heard. Polar has been sold to an undisclosed party and the name will be changed to Airbourne.

As long as we are being silly, we might as well be completely ridiculous.

[tkinney345]

Polar sale

Well then its UPS, no planes no crews date of sale April 1 2009

[layinlow]

Don't bet the farm on it. UPS is short on cash and there are other players in the game with a lot more in the bank. IN addition UPS has announce a large furlough.

[hyfly]

Hyfly

Bravo!!

Eurobouffon, I will give you an A- for your effort presenting your facts, You have learned well from your master number 1 (Est-ce que tu me comprends?) I am sure your presentation has been to Purchase a few times, and that is one of the reasons why you are still employed.

Thanks for the flowers, it's a honor to be graded by you!

For now I will only debate a few of your non-sense points:

Why do you reply on non-sense points at all - isn't that an attack on your own intelligence or are you just sensible on facts ?

You forgot to mention the fact that for the last 5 years the exchange rate between GBP vs USD fluctuated between 1.8 to 2.0, and not until December 2008 it came down to the 1.4 range.

Only correct facts please if you don't mind: The average exchange rate since the start of AACS/AABO (2000 - 2009) was 1.713, lowest at 1,35, highest 2,116.

This means that a “Senior 8 year” ABBO Captain with a 7,336.41 a month salary (thanks for providing the exact figure) makes 88036.92 GBP a year at an average of 1.9 exchange rate he made at least for the last 5 years US167,270.48

The difference between Atlas-AABO is equal to US 44,274.20 a year!!!
Based only on that amount, AABO profit sharing is higher than Atlas!!!
a profit that could not have happened with 40 pilots, and NO AIRCRAFT.

Correct figure over the last 9 years would be USD 150,800,- and that with a sometimes quite low USD-GBP/EUR value - just remember the costs for a beer.
And what I said before, which is still valid:
- 3 AABO Captains have the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains.
- 3 AABO Captains can fly + 300 hrs per month for the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains, who can fly only 124 hrs for these costs.

If that isn't worth the slightly higher costs, than do you math again.

There are not 8 year Captains at Atlas, that has been extinct specie(thanks to you), therefore your comparison is pointless.

So why do you reply on that - again: attack on your own intelligence
Fact is: There are +30 Captains at Atlas with a 7-9 year seniority - read the seniority lists and base awards.

As mentioned before on previous posts, AABO has no airplanes, therefore no 121 certificate(you might not even know what that means) how the heck can you jumpseat on US carriers as several of you do. Do you tell the Captain, or gate agent you work for Atlas, or AABO? how convenient!!

And what do you intend to tell anybody here ?
Facts: We all are employed by an Atlas Air Company as you are, have the same ID as you, operate the same aircraft as you, have the same FAA licence as you (+ some others), can speak and write the English language at least as well as you etc. etc.

One more question for you:
Imagine you were at Carrefour standing in line just about to pay, and 40 persons jumped in front of you, and by the time you get to the cashier you hear: "sorry we are closed" would you be upset
That is a true story at Atlas!!?

Pissed about your decision not to move over to the front of the line in time as you had the chance several times ?
You shouldn't complain about your actual position when you felt asleep several times at the wrong times.

Next time, please also show 8 year FO pay so that I can do your math again, and remember that when things go bad with Foreign Carriers the first to GO are the expats!! consider yourself lucky to still have a job.

F/O 8th year: GBP 61.627

Aren't you an expat when flying Quantas, New Zealand, Lufthansa, Emirates?
So the question is just who goes first.
But in the meantime let's all be lucky that we still have a job - regardless of our passports.
(Side question: How did you get your US passport - lottery or something similar, as your posts don't indicate you had an US passport initially - maybe French ?)

Au revoir

Wrong language assumed !
Any problems with the French at all ? As the name for the French Fries has been changed already to Freedom Fries - let's change the (2 AABO) French pilots as well to Freedom pilots !


Some more facts & comments:

1. There are only around 20 Europeans at AABO, the rest is from elsewhere in the world - including US. So spread your hate accordingly.

2. A basic and simple question:
Would you please explain why ONLY a US pilot should have the right to fly for resp. under the callsign Quantas, New Zealand, Lufthansa, Emirates etc. , taking away pilot jobs in Australia, New Zealand, Germany, UAE and several other countries ?
I'll give you a hint: ACMI - and that's where you and we all at Atlas are in - is like a good whore house: international girls - international customers - no moral - cash only.
So you (and others) should come up with a wrong moral under these circumstances.

3. Why don't you reply to any of my questions in the same posting - I try again:

Question 1:
Where are your comments about GSS and your demand that GSS must go?
- They operate 3 x 400’s, soon 3 more -8's, all owned by Atlas, operated by European pilots only.
- This would/could be 60 less furloughs at Atlas.
- And they even operate into the US!

Question 2:
Why don’t you complain that there are no furloughs/downgrades at Polar, as there are several junior to AABO and should/will be merged with Atlas (soon)?

Question 3:
No other solution/discussion regarding the furloughs than bashing on AABO ?
- What’s about a proposal from the Union or anybody else for a solution to minimize the furloughs or one which would not require them at all, such as everybody works 80%?

[747newguy]

Wrong

"Fact is: There are +30 Captains at Atlas with a 7-9 year seniority - read the seniority lists and base awards."

9-year Atlas F/O and not even close to upgrade...

[geardownflaps20]

on 10-year pay and no upgrade in sight at Atlas mainline

Pilots generally upgrade based on seniority-date-of-hire.

Sometimes there are opportunities where pilots can by-pass this standard.

The kindest word for these pilots are "opportunists".

In by-passing their fellow pilots at the same company, the opportunists are taking the money and the upgrades to the detriment of their fellow pilots, like someone that cuts in front of others in a queue. My fellow oportunistic pilots at Atlas that are are organized to cut in front of me call themselves "AABO", have taken about $50,000 dollars each year from my paycheck for the last 6 or 7 years. I have heard all sorts of convoluted arguments about how this is OK, but the fact remains that AABO pilots are Atlas pilots that have by-passed the normal queue for an upgrade, and have financially damaged the careers of their fellow Atlas pilots in doing so.

Usually this is part of a management scheme during, or before a strike.

The opportunistic pilots that take the jobs from more senior pilots generally go away after a while, leaving the original pilots the original jobs. The remaining oportunistic AABO pilots now have acquired the flight time and experience so that they now can obtain honorable employment at other airlines, and they should do so, as this is their most honorable course of action. Alternatively, if they wish to continue flying in the same Atlas aircraft with the same fellow Atlas pilots, such as myself, they should apply for membership in the union that represents the Atlas pilots, taking a seniority number consistent with the date that they take such action.

I was hired at Atlas early in 2000. As soon as the union leadership stopped objecting to union pilots bidding the Stanstead Base, I bid for an upgrade at the Standstead base. That bid remains in place today. I am senior at Atlas by date of hire to all the AABO pilots, from R Roland on down. I have served as a co-pilot for the opportunistic captains that are junior to me, younger than me, and with less time in command than me. I came to Atlas with prior experience in Lockheed, Douglas, Airbus, and Boeing aircraft, with prior experience in one-engine, two-engine, three-engine, and four-engine jet aircraft. I believe that I am as good a pilot as any of the opportunistic pilots at Atlas that are organised under the AABO label, but I am denied upgrade because my fellow pilots cut in the queue. I have little personal respect for these pilots, but I am the copilot, and I offer them all the airmanship, skill, and experience that I possess while in the same aircraft with them; once the cockpit is entered, they are in command and I will do what I am paid to do.

But be clear, the problem with AABO is not citizenship, not country of origin of freight, not even the country of issue of the relevant air carrier certificate or country of the owners of Atlas; the issue is the low moral character of someone that would cut in a queue to the detriment of those that have been waiting longer.

It is true that the stupidity and inexperience of the union leadership at Atlas has led to this situation. But if there is a long queue and people cut in front while offering the explanation, "these pilots are stupid and inexperienced in matters of queues, so I will cut in front of them, because no one will stop me" is that OK?

Now that you AABO pilots have cut in front of your fellow pilots at Atlas, there are furloughs. You AABO pilots have never been furloughed, even though pilots senior to you have been furloughed. Is this right? Or is this opportunistic? Nationality has nothing to do with it. Opportunisticly taking unfair advantage of fellow workers, people that work with you elbow-to-elbow, at all hours of the night, thru the war zones, the FIRs, and haz mat, that is the issue. You AABO pilots are Atlas pilots with no moral strength.

[anothercargopilot]

geardownflaps20,

Very well put. You have eloquently stated the reason why AABO/AACS must go.

Based on the latest bid award, these out of seniority AABO Captains would be the most junior F/O's in the company if they were Atlas Teamsters. Instead almost all AABO pilots are Captains, and bid senior to any Atlas Teamster pilot based in STN. The few AABO F/O's remaining either failed an upgrade course (some multiple times) or have been judged incapable of being PIC. Even these AABO F/O's bid senior to EVERY Atlas Teamster F/O who is or will ever be based in STN.

This out-of-seniority group has existed too long. I wonder what their excuse will be when they get let go because the cuts go as deep as their date of hire? I guess then it will be OK to furlough an Atlas Teamster F/O that was hired BEFORE an AABO Captain?

Opportunists justify their existence because how they save money for the company. Never once has Hyfly or any other pilot convinced me how AABO maintains a fair and just seniority or why their upgrades ahead of Atlas Teamsters pilots are deserved or morally right. Explain to me why only one or two AABO Captains get downgraded yet Atlas Teamsters suffers MANY more downgrades and 100 pilots furloughed? But AABO saves the company money so that is OK? Hardly.

[WhaleFR8]

Geardownflaps20

It is even worse than you think. Many of these "opportunistic pilots" also volunteer a great majority of their off time to further take money from the mainline pilots pockets, as well as allow the company to slow the upgrade of mainline pilots. I understand the contractual reasons for them to volunteer up to three X-days (the company can take them for free anyways but if the AABO pilots volunteer them they get paid more). So not only did they cut in line, but they continue to try to take take take as much as they can from mainline and the company. And it gets even worse. Certain conspiracy theorists will tell you about the "Russian connection" and the three dozen Russian pilots recruited by one of the AABO opportunists to take the place of the Atlas pilots if there ever should be a strike (back during the Cato days and the initial CBA negotiations.). I don't know how true this is, but the guy is still an AABO Captain and junior to many many mainline FOs.

They need to go - and if I were one of them I would be dusting off my CV. They only have one advocate at the company and he is on his last legs. The rest of the company is willing to use them as chips in yet another CBA poker game. Bummer for them but this is the job they have chosen. ttfn AABO.

[v1andgo]

They need to go - and if I were one of them I would be dusting off my CV. They only have one advocate at the company and he is on his last legs. The rest of the company is willing to use them as chips in yet another CBA poker game. Bummer for them but this is the job they have chosen. ttfn AABO.

Are you refering to RR as the advocate of AABO?

[L-38]

Barking up the wrong tree when in anguish over the moral integrity of "opportunistic pilots"?

Like exampled governmental problems of immigration, people who legally take advantage are obviously doing what is made available for them to do. The ONLY problem here, is the government /company / union that allows it.

[v1andgo]

I found this interesting take on Seniority on the Web.
Maybe we should learn from the past including AABO, Polar Merger, and the Union failure to come to terms with deregulation.
enjoy.

Seniority, Fairness, and Pilot Union Failure


Robert J. Lavender

Much has been written about pilot unions and the seeming inability of their members to get along these days. Of particular note has been the recent attempt by units of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) at Delta and Northwest Airlines to integrate their seniority lists and facilitate a merger between their two companies. The Associated Press reported that pilots have

not been able to agree to how seniority for the 12,000 pilots would work under a combined carrier.[1]

In similar fashion, the recent effort at US Airways to decertify ALPA and replace it with an independent union was driven by the quest for seniority position as its pilots and those from America West Airlines furiously clashed over how to consolidate their members. During that campaign, many pilots sported lanyards stating “Seniority Matters.” Indeed, “seniority” matters so much to pilots that it trumps and clouds business decisions that could otherwise be in their long-term best interest. As a 30-year airline pilot, I can testify that seniority is the force behind almost all of the internal competition that turns pilots—union “brethren,” if you will—into enemies.

The situation is simple to understand: In the pilot culture, seniority rules. Senior pilots (that is, those who were hired first), have historically enjoyed the best of everything including the highest pay, the first choice of cockpit position and trips, and, overall, the best quality of life. These are not petty matters. At FedEx, for instance, differentials in cash compensation alone can be more than $150,000.00 per year between senior and junior pilots. Unfortunately, in the open market, a difference in value of this magnitude among similarly-skilled providers of service always invites competition. If one can imagine the competitive response that would occur if an airline company tried to justify higher ticket prices based on its date of incorporation, one can understand the pilot problem.

The question is: Why is “seniority,” a concept of limited importance to most unions, so enormous to pilots, and what can be done to stop the friction that it causes?

The pilot notion of seniority “rights” is a holdover from the period in which airlines and their employees were highly regulated and protected from natural economic forces by the federal government. During this period of “Regulation,” there were few if any airline failures, hence, employees, including pilots, all had the same career expectation: You got hired when you were young, you worked at one company for thirty years, and, you retired with money in the bank. The fact that you made a ridiculously low wage as a new-hire was worth ignoring because you made it up on the back end when you became senior. In that protected environment, the captain’s position coincidentally became the anchor for determining pay. The internal system by which pilots valued each other became known as the “seniority system,” and it worked adequately for decades under those stable conditions.

Everything changed, though, with passage of the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. The express purpose of this law was to create competition within the airline industry—and it did exactly that, not only among companies but among pilots as well. When companies such as Braniff failed, their pilots found themselves looking for employment. Sadly, the system that worked fine under government control did not function well at all when 40 and 50 year-olds with kids in college were faced with starting over in union jobs paying $1300.00 per month. So, when Continental pilots went on strike in 1983, 450 Braniff pilots crossed their picket line. Why? Because they could make two and a half times more money there than they could at a union carrier. Yes, they had to “steal” their seniority from striking pilots, but the financial incentive was too great to ignore. They had the skills and the motivation; all they needed was the opportunity. In failing to adjust to the reality of the “free market,” union officials left their members wide open to this form of competition.

The same exact economic forces that affected pilots in 1983 are in play today as pilots jockey for merged seniority position and the pay and lifestyle that go along with it. Even though the adage, “You only have to be junior once” has not been true for decades, pilots still act as though it is. Remarkably, thirty years after the airline world was rocked, pilots are still doing business among themselves the old way.

Part of the problem is that pilots ignore the fact that seniority is a political system, not an economic one. Throughout the commercial world, it exists almost exclusively to protect against management favoritism and it means mostly one thing: First-hired, last fired. In some union environments, it doesn’t even mean that. In the National Football League, for instance, if the rookie draws the bigger crowd, he gets the job. Likewise, if a member of the electricians union were to demand grossly higher wages simply because he received his electrician license first, he would be seen as greedy and there would be open warfare…exactly as there is among pilots.

Airline managers appear to love this system—it generates so much competition and distraction among pilots that it prohibits them from competing effectively with the corporate establishment. Whereas, airline mergers should have resulted in larger and stronger pilots groups, they have become larger and weaker. The proof is in the pudding: Pilots have been unable to pull off one meaningful job action in years, even when faced with the reduction and loss of their most precious assets: cash compensation, work rules, and pension funds.

In this writer’s opinion, “seniority,” as currently employed by pilots, causes gross disharmony within the ranks of union members. Unity does not fall from trees in the open market; it must be created through economic incentives. If pilots desire to reduce internal competition, enhance their ability to compete with corporate strategists, and eliminate problems associated with seniority list integration, they must reduce compensation differentials to levels that are economically fair to everyone. The perception of fairness is the primary factor in incentivizing unified behavior. This is not to suggest that everyone get paid the same; it is to say that differences cannot be based on non-economic concepts such as date-of-hire or the condescending attitude that “You are junior, so you must suffer.” They must be based on sound economic reasoning including the law of supply and demand. If, for instance, there is less demand to fly at night (“redeye” flying), then pilots who do it must receive greater compensation (i.e., pay, vacation time, etc.) for their trouble. This kind of logic may be applied in dozens of ways to create a sense of fairness that does not now exist within the piloting profession.

The upside to leveling the economic playing field among pilots is significant. For instance, if pay were front-end, rather than back-end, “loaded,” pilots would have the same average career earnings as they have now, but they would also: 1. Enjoy an improved tax consequence; 2. Earn more compounded interest on more savings for more years; 3. Reduce internal competition for seat position; and, 4. Eliminate the need for a “national seniority list” (because they could start over at an new job at a living wage). Not one of these advantages is currently available to any union pilot.

It is common knowledge that the Labor movement has collapsed in this country. Unions now represent only 7.5% of the private workforce, and pilots, in particular, appear to be in a failure mode. Competition among them has been so intense for so long that they no longer trust each other on economic matters. After years of leadership neglect, it is clear that unions possess neither the skills nor the tools required to create professional harmony. Fortunately, there are those who do possess the needed expertise and they are willing to help. Tens of thousands of for-profit and not-for-profit organizations around the world have employed Organizational Behavior expertise with great success in bringing workers together. If pilots wish to relieve their internal distress, they must take advantage of this expertise and devise logical market-based strategies for competing wisely in today’s world. If they continue to follow the traditional union economic model, they should plan on achieving traditional results: Disunity, weakness, and management exploitation. Such are the components of union failure.










Bob lavender has been a Federal Express pilot for 18 years, a Continental pilot (’78-’83), and is the owner of a nationwide real estate referral network. He lives in Provo, Utah, and he can be reached at [email protected]

21 April 2008

[1] Delta Pilots Say No Deal With Northwest, Harry Weber, AP, Posted: 2008-03-17 21:11:05

[WhaleDriver]

Sure got quiet around here after "geardownflaps20's" most exceltent post!

[WhaleFR8]

Or maybe everyone just heard that the closing of AABO is immanent and decided that it was not worth the effort.

[TimeOnTarget]

About to hit the street

The Fed Ex man delivered my furlough letter on Saturday. At least I won't have to pay a lot of taxes this year!

Maybe my dream of flying banner planes along the beach will finally come true. But seriously, I did see an article which stated air freight has leveled off, so maybe we will see an upturn soon.

[D-LZ 130]

747-8s to Titan?

How many and when?

[Fr8Dog]

Sunday 1245Z

#263 (permalink)
D-LZ 130
Probationary PPRuNer


Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: bora bora
Posts: 2 747-8s to Titan?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many and when?

All of them, next week! You guys, if your gonna smoke that stuff you should keep a low profile.

[jetjock6]

That's old news. I heard first three.