Atlas Polar
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Saying you doubt that Titan won't evolve into anything isn't good enough. It needs to be addressed in Scope -- regardless of what union we end up with. This is VERY serious stuff, gang.
You and I may not like it, but it is the normal way of structuring airlines these days. And ALPA does not seem to object (which, to be fair to ALPA, would probably be a waste of time).
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Excellent points, and well taken. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be nipped in the bud. For a "professionial" negotiating comittee it needs to be addressed. No if ands or butts. To let it slide and trust the management side is hogwash . . .otherwise there would be no fuss about being union. See what I mean? It's a check and balance sort of thing and I'm telling you now, that this needs to be nipped in the bud. And a hardline drawn.
As you can see by your own statement management can get in the way of themselves. Well, why let that happen? Make sure that opportunity isn't there. End of story. I've been on too many unemployment lines by no fault of my own to let something like this take us out as well. I've seen it written in contracts and we better hit it here and now. It should be a "hardliner."
As you can see by your own statement management can get in the way of themselves. Well, why let that happen? Make sure that opportunity isn't there. End of story. I've been on too many unemployment lines by no fault of my own to let something like this take us out as well. I've seen it written in contracts and we better hit it here and now. It should be a "hardliner."
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dumbdumb: Fair enough. To add to this, and a lot more, yesterday’s analyst conference call is well worth listening too. It should be on the public company site, it certainly is available via the usual financial web sites.
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Serious is besides the point, the fact is that aacs/aabo have ripped the benefits of Atlas, enjoying higher salaries, no pilot furloughs, jumpseats,etc.
While Atlas-Polar keep staffing levels between CA-FO proportionate to aircrafts, aabo-aacs is comprised of mostly captains with Zero airplanes to their name.
This is a serious issue that affects Polar, and Atlas pilot's careers significantly. It is up to the next leadership to be appointed to address this issue, and hopefully put and end to it.
While Atlas-Polar keep staffing levels between CA-FO proportionate to aircrafts, aabo-aacs is comprised of mostly captains with Zero airplanes to their name.
This is a serious issue that affects Polar, and Atlas pilot's careers significantly. It is up to the next leadership to be appointed to address this issue, and hopefully put and end to it.
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742: Excellent advise on listening to the conference call. I think it's interesting that the company is always shifting flying. Et Al: The two DHL planes are going to another customer. Hmmm . . seems to me that lift is being supported through ANC via Polar BSA and it was a "startup" to get the line of supply going. We all know that customers aren't lined up overnight.
Well, don't let this die as it was also addressed: Titan Leasing Scope, Scope, Scope!!
Well, don't let this die as it was also addressed: Titan Leasing Scope, Scope, Scope!!
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As much as some dislike the Polar MEC, I have to take note that this was predicted by our council over a year ago and the single most concern for the future and the reason for most of the actions taken hence.
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Right on
Layinlow... you are right on the money... Our MEC has predicted many of these things, including Cato's demise. One of our other utmost concerns, that for some puzzling unknown reason, the Atlas guys don't seem to understand or care about is the crew leasing issue. Atlas is a leasing company, not an airline. Setting up these aircraft leasing companies, crew leasing companies, and crew leasing agreements is showing us their direction. These issues are of the utmost importance to be addressed in any scope and protocalls, whether merged or alone. We could merge ourselves right out of a job if this is done incorrectly.
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Atlas is a leasing company, not an airline. .
The Polar MEC and your groups interpretation seems to be lacking also. This is more of an obtuse excuse to lock things up and keep you rallying on his interpretation in lieu of the true facts. It is not a secret that Polar never wanted to merge. You are a "real airline" unlike Atlas, ABX, Astar and others per your description. We at Atlas prefer not to merge also, but understand that we will be used against each other again at the next independent section 6 negotiation if we remain separated.
Having said all of that. When we merge, we will need an airtight scope clause as we can get. There are a few good ones out there now with a few mods to steal from for our combined purposes.
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Didn't Polar originate from "Polaris Leasing" owned by GE and turned into a revenue (not necessarily profit) generating center by Jack Welch. Seems I read something about that in Welch's book.
OTOH I think your MEC was warned about the whole ANC thing almost three years ago now. The Polar guys are now in a position that the company can cause all the attrition they want just by adjusting the lines. It is pretty hard to JS home when you only have two days off between flights.
But there is enough "told you so" to go around without any of us, or FedEx QA, saying so. (Time to MOVE ON Bill! No one, including your own "friends" at Polar wants you to continue to prod.). It is also time to get together, under one union, with a profession negotiator, who does not have a dog in the fight; and get a contract with good scope. We will never get that with a negotiator from either side. We must have a professional negotiator. And that is something that ALPA will never allow because it opens the doors for the other carriers.
Too much water under the bridge and too much politics at ALPA with Atlas/Polar. United under one banner is the only solution thru this mess.
OTOH I think your MEC was warned about the whole ANC thing almost three years ago now. The Polar guys are now in a position that the company can cause all the attrition they want just by adjusting the lines. It is pretty hard to JS home when you only have two days off between flights.
But there is enough "told you so" to go around without any of us, or FedEx QA, saying so. (Time to MOVE ON Bill! No one, including your own "friends" at Polar wants you to continue to prod.). It is also time to get together, under one union, with a profession negotiator, who does not have a dog in the fight; and get a contract with good scope. We will never get that with a negotiator from either side. We must have a professional negotiator. And that is something that ALPA will never allow because it opens the doors for the other carriers.
Too much water under the bridge and too much politics at ALPA with Atlas/Polar. United under one banner is the only solution thru this mess.
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Leasing
Nitty... I was talking about AAWH.....Like I said before; the fight is not with you. BTW Polar was operating the South PAC route structure long before AAWH thought of acquiring Polar. You still have not gave me any siphoning examples.
Beav... You are partially correct, Polaris leasing was set up to lease the aircraft to Polar. Polar was not originally owned by GE. Ned only owned 921 at the time.
Beav... You are partially correct, Polaris leasing was set up to lease the aircraft to Polar. Polar was not originally owned by GE. Ned only owned 921 at the time.
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Mark,
nope - Polar was formed in 1993 as a joint venture between Southern Air Transport and GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) as well as NedMark. It started operations in June 1993 and began with charter flights, later adding scheduled services. Polaris leasing was the arm of GECAS that originally leased planes to PanAm and also, I believe, Flying Tigers
From Answers.com
Also from Answers.com
Jack Welch decided he needed to get some revenue out of the planes he had sitting around so he formed Polar Air Cargo as a partnership with Polaris (GECAS) SAT and NedMark..
Your Oz/NZ routes were code shares, which is way different than the ACMI being flown now by Atlas. So for you or your MEC to say that the Atlas pilots "stole" or even had anything to do with siphoning your flying is beyond ludicrous. The simple fact is that as a non-integrated carrier, the Polar scheduled routes to SYD and NZ were doomed to failure.
nope - Polar was formed in 1993 as a joint venture between Southern Air Transport and GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) as well as NedMark. It started operations in June 1993 and began with charter flights, later adding scheduled services. Polaris leasing was the arm of GECAS that originally leased planes to PanAm and also, I believe, Flying Tigers
From Answers.com
... in September 1993, GE Capital announced plans to create a new subsidiary, GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS), to manage GPA's assets. It also bought 44 of GPA's 464 aircraft outright for US$1.4 billion (IR £920 million). GECAS had the option to buy a nearly two-thirds stake in GPA by March 1998. GPA agreed not to use the names GPA or Guinness Peat Aviation after 2001.
GECAS was staffed by 160 GPA employees (25 remained with GPA) and based at Shannon. The virtual merger was complex and difficult, its structure devised to prevent GE Capital from assuming GPA's liabilities. GPA essentially was divided into two companies, only the namesake being responsible for the $5 billion debt. GECAS was formally established in November 1993. GE Capital's own San Francisco-based Polaris Aircraft Leasing, based in California, was incorporated into it.
GECAS was staffed by 160 GPA employees (25 remained with GPA) and based at Shannon. The virtual merger was complex and difficult, its structure devised to prevent GE Capital from assuming GPA's liabilities. GPA essentially was divided into two companies, only the namesake being responsible for the $5 billion debt. GECAS was formally established in November 1993. GE Capital's own San Francisco-based Polaris Aircraft Leasing, based in California, was incorporated into it.
Polar Air Cargo, L.P. was formed in January 1993 as a partnership between Polaris Holding Company, Southern Air Transport, Inc., and NedMark Transportation Services Inc. Southern Air, a major unscheduled cargo airline based in Miami, operated the planes, which were owned by Polaris Holding of San Francisco, a subsidiary of General Electric Capital Services; the three Boeing 747 freighters had formerly carried passengers for Pan American.
Your Oz/NZ routes were code shares, which is way different than the ACMI being flown now by Atlas. So for you or your MEC to say that the Atlas pilots "stole" or even had anything to do with siphoning your flying is beyond ludicrous. The simple fact is that as a non-integrated carrier, the Polar scheduled routes to SYD and NZ were doomed to failure.
Last edited by Beaver_Driver; 8th Nov 2008 at 23:04.
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Nitty... I was talking about AAWH.....Like I said before; the fight is not with you. BTW Polar was operating the South PAC route structure long before AAWH thought of acquiring Polar. You still have not gave me any siphoning examples.
As to the Polar elitist attitude of who is a "real airline." It has repeated here, on the line, and on your web boards for some time. I only assumed you were perpetuating it again. Judging from history of the Polar group, I still think you might have at best made a Freudian slip.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 10th Nov 2008 at 21:39.
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That's some goof at Polar (M.P.).
My ribbons came at the cost of others and my blood. His are probably a relatives or from the local Army-Navy store.
Looks like Army ribbons (two that I can remember from what my weak eyes can pick out of the picture).
My ribbons came at the cost of others and my blood. His are probably a relatives or from the local Army-Navy store.
Looks like Army ribbons (two that I can remember from what my weak eyes can pick out of the picture).
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 9th Nov 2008 at 05:50.
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Hey Polar guys. Here's what one of your guys said on APC. What's your take on his comments?
"DHL BSA (block space agreement) is only set at the six aircraft at Polar. Well, we are fully staffed. The two airplanes on the Atlas side have recently been reallocated to another customer. As far as effective date, I don't know.
Here's the kicker. Careful what you wish for. Go to Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings and listen to the earnigs report. There's a VERY scary message hidden within. In fact, it has me dusting off my resume. The twenty year DHL deal is ammendable every five years. Having said that, if they decide to terminate the aggreement, (not sure on the particulars) they have to take the airplanes with them. Not sure of the timeline as I haven't looked into specifics. So here's the scenario: Anyone remember the DHL/UPS deal in the works? Yep. That's my theory. They take the airplanes -- NO CREWS -- because of the F'd up scope clause that no one seems to monitor and we're gone. TAAA DAAAA!!!! BAM! All of sudden DHL has six 400's to lease to whomever (UPS) and furloughs run amuck. Yeah, this is all theory but I don't trust anyone after all the B.S. I've been through with other airlines."
"DHL BSA (block space agreement) is only set at the six aircraft at Polar. Well, we are fully staffed. The two airplanes on the Atlas side have recently been reallocated to another customer. As far as effective date, I don't know.
Here's the kicker. Careful what you wish for. Go to Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings and listen to the earnigs report. There's a VERY scary message hidden within. In fact, it has me dusting off my resume. The twenty year DHL deal is ammendable every five years. Having said that, if they decide to terminate the aggreement, (not sure on the particulars) they have to take the airplanes with them. Not sure of the timeline as I haven't looked into specifics. So here's the scenario: Anyone remember the DHL/UPS deal in the works? Yep. That's my theory. They take the airplanes -- NO CREWS -- because of the F'd up scope clause that no one seems to monitor and we're gone. TAAA DAAAA!!!! BAM! All of sudden DHL has six 400's to lease to whomever (UPS) and furloughs run amuck. Yeah, this is all theory but I don't trust anyone after all the B.S. I've been through with other airlines."
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Browntailwhale,
I have a few comments about your post...lets assume DHL cancels their agreement in FIVE years as you state and Polar aircraft go with:
1) I would guess DHL would forfeit all the millions of dollars they have paid for Polar and the block space agreement in the first place. How much is that total? A few hundred million I think. (Although it wouldn't be the first time DHL has walked away from a major investment - ABX/ASTAR - US flight operations)
2) What about the 51% of Polar Air Cargo that AAWH owns. Would UPS have to buy that too? I would think at 51% AAWH has the ultimate decision to sell out the certificate and/or aircraft or permit these to be used by UPS with or without crew.
3) I would speculate a complete sale of Polar Air Cargo would result in the landing rights going away IF the buyer was UPS (or lets say FEDEX) since they already have an abundance of rights already (monopoly/duopoly). One could probably argue that UPS wouldn't want them anyway....maybe just the lift of the 6 -400's.
4) If UPS or anyone else really wants 747's, they can just buy them from Atlas Air Cargo or through Titan the dry leasing company. Remember, Atlas Air Cargo has NO SCOPE, no protection. Titan is a shell company. And when I say 747's I mean the -800's too. It's all on the table and I'm sure ANYTHING can be bought for a price. So why screw around with the Polar workforce and their scope? Walk to the next cubicle and get from Atlas.
At the end of the day without a very tight scope clause and other protections this merged pilot group (Polar and Atlas) is in danger. At the moment, the Atlas pilots are working under a weak first union contract (ALPA) that was amenable a long time ago. The Atlas pilots are long overdue for a better contract (not just an hourly pay raise) and much better working conditions.
Scope MUST be at the top of the list.
Like it our not, it will be a Teamsters led negotiated contract for a combined Polar/Atlas workforce. They better get it right.
I have a few comments about your post...lets assume DHL cancels their agreement in FIVE years as you state and Polar aircraft go with:
1) I would guess DHL would forfeit all the millions of dollars they have paid for Polar and the block space agreement in the first place. How much is that total? A few hundred million I think. (Although it wouldn't be the first time DHL has walked away from a major investment - ABX/ASTAR - US flight operations)
2) What about the 51% of Polar Air Cargo that AAWH owns. Would UPS have to buy that too? I would think at 51% AAWH has the ultimate decision to sell out the certificate and/or aircraft or permit these to be used by UPS with or without crew.
3) I would speculate a complete sale of Polar Air Cargo would result in the landing rights going away IF the buyer was UPS (or lets say FEDEX) since they already have an abundance of rights already (monopoly/duopoly). One could probably argue that UPS wouldn't want them anyway....maybe just the lift of the 6 -400's.
4) If UPS or anyone else really wants 747's, they can just buy them from Atlas Air Cargo or through Titan the dry leasing company. Remember, Atlas Air Cargo has NO SCOPE, no protection. Titan is a shell company. And when I say 747's I mean the -800's too. It's all on the table and I'm sure ANYTHING can be bought for a price. So why screw around with the Polar workforce and their scope? Walk to the next cubicle and get from Atlas.
At the end of the day without a very tight scope clause and other protections this merged pilot group (Polar and Atlas) is in danger. At the moment, the Atlas pilots are working under a weak first union contract (ALPA) that was amenable a long time ago. The Atlas pilots are long overdue for a better contract (not just an hourly pay raise) and much better working conditions.
Scope MUST be at the top of the list.
Like it our not, it will be a Teamsters led negotiated contract for a combined Polar/Atlas workforce. They better get it right.
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Sad thing is that the company was open to new negotiated scope for the merged Atlas-Polar group during the initial part of this to get the PACW-DHL deal closed early on.
Unfortunately, the agenda on one side of this three way equation was to stop the merger irrespective of that and still is to this day.
Don't know if that will remain on the table in the current environment.
Unfortunately, the agenda on one side of this three way equation was to stop the merger irrespective of that and still is to this day.
Don't know if that will remain on the table in the current environment.
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Excellent advise on listening to the conference call. I think it's interesting that the company is always shifting flying. Et Al: The two DHL planes are going to another customer. Hmmm . . seems to me that lift is being supported through ANC via Polar BSA and it was a "startup" to get the line of supply going. We all know that customers aren't lined up overnight.
The new customer has been waiting for Atlas to find two -400's for them. The two from DHL became available and they signed a letter of intent. My bet is an Asian carrier that operates out of Japan.
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Whaledriver:
I agree with your speculation on an Asian carrier. ANA is going through the audit process as we speak. So maybe that's the airline.
I agree with your speculation on an Asian carrier. ANA is going through the audit process as we speak. So maybe that's the airline.
Last edited by dumbdumb; 10th Nov 2008 at 00:11. Reason: spelling