Pull your heads in
 

Guys I know this is a public forum, but some of the posts here are making Cathay Pacific out to be Cathay Pathetic.

Airing your dirty laundry really degrades all of you.

Why not get a private forum for the bashings etc.

What you all need to be doing now is pulling together.

Just a though

CX has a private forum on it's union's server. Unfortunately there are non-members of the union on this forum, ergo the dirty laundry.

Cprune is only available to AOA members....therefore 510 CX pilots cannot post there.

This therefore is their only forum/outlet for discussion AND the only forum for ALL CX pilots, CC and Staff.

747-400; you may be correct, but with regard to posts regarding the current industrial situation in HKG:

1. many of the posts are not from CX pilots but from potential recruits seeking clarification.

2. the outcome may well effect union/management relations globally. assuming youre at QF and given the australian history re:89, you may well be advised to keep your ear to the gnd.

747-400 F/O. I could not disagree more. There is absolutely nothing pathetic about exchanging thoughts on the only thing adversely affecting employment at CX. True some of the posts get a bit animated - for want of a better word - but that is understandable as emotions are high. TUF is right as this 'dispute' affects many more than are allowed access to Cprune. Free and fair exchange of ideas, what can be wrong with that?

The main reason I recently left the union was the great lack of
true anonimity on Cprune. If any anti AOA leadership opinions
were posted they were howled down. Followed by caustic
comments from members privy to the true names of posters on
this private forum. Cprune is a great part of the problems in
CX not part of the solution. Debate has been gagged on Cprune
by 49ers and the leadership of the AOA. The moderator himself
has done an upgrade and spills identities to his mates should
anyone have the temerity to cross the party line. Grow up boys,
and accept opinions that contradict yours.

the union boys fear the truth and opinions that counter their own, as most of their "strength " lies in bullying, and scare tactics, not clear, even-handed presentation of facts, particularly in the case of the recruitment ban, as all the facts bared makes the AoA look a bit hypocritical...so when somebody posts an opinion contrary to theirs either on this forum, or their own one, they become defensive and lash out with verbal abuse, and name calling....not factual counter-points.

IB57, I seem to remember that YOUR non factual counterpoints got you banned from Pprune until you promised to behave like a good little girl...... what exactly is your personal FACTUAL counterpoint to the sacking of the CX pilots, or is it time to get your panties down again.......?:rolleyes:

Quitting the Union
 

Phlaps 1:

I highly doubt that you quit the Union because of Cprune. If you were concerned about the anonimity on Cpurne, don?t use it. I believe there are other reasons for you quitting the Union. I can name them all, but doubt Cprune would be there.

Remember, opinions are like a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s, everybody has one. Why don?t you grow up and accept opinions that contradict yours.

TB

I think you may be missing the point here.

You so eloquently quoted one of lifeÕs great axiomsÉ

Perhaps you should also understand that the corollary is also true.

Not all who have differing opinions are a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s

Whilst cprune of itself may not be a primary reason for leaving the AOA, it certainly provides a less than anonymous platform for the bullying of minority opinion.

What you are saying is more than just any dissenters should accept opinions that contradict their own. You are suggesting, in addition, that they should also accept being denied one vehicle by which to express themelves within the AOA forum.

Unfortunately, it seems to my perhaps atrophying brain that this is further dividing the pilot body and making the AOA less able to advocate toward the middle ground. Indeed it is pushing them toward more desperate and secretive measures to exact some kind of face-saving solution to the 49Õer issue in order to show some forward progress.

The cockpit door is now firmly locked, physically and metaphorically. If we want to keep it that way, then I guess management wonÕt mind too much. It is really our choice.

There is a voice of reason out there, just ask the Canadian F/O who was recently allowed to retract his resignation. Indeed, I would submit that had there been an apology for the flying peanuts, the incident would have been forgotten and help provided.

Sure there are other cases that might suggest otherwise, but weeding out dissenters from the AOA by design or by attrition is surely counterintuitive.

At the risk of incoming from 6FU et al, further division serves only to make bitterness the master of all he pervades.

VR-HFX, the peanut launcher DID apologize, profoundly and frequently, to both the target and the DFO, and the only retort was the sack...swiftly and without any compassion.

If DT was less of a pathological pilot-hater I suspect the AOA and CX may be talking and the peanut-man may still be shouting a noisy beer or three in the gay bar.

Capt Y

Semantics.

DT is not the DFO nor, as I clearly understand it, was he the supposed target. He was however on the receiving end of launch but not the apology. As he is the CEO, I would feel he has every right to be upset. That the DFO was unable to fix this situation is all the more sad.

The last thing I would call DT is a pathological pilot hater. If our ex-colleague had gone upstairs the following morning he would still be shouting in the gay bar.

The fact that 50% of the new commanders choose not to avail themselves of the one-on-one meeting with him would tell me that more than a few are pathological management haters.


FWIW.

VR:

Agreed. Not all who have differing opinions are a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s

The guys on Cprune know how Cathay Pacific Airways treat its employees. For those guys that get on there and say drop everything and CX will talk don't know the character of Cathay Pacific Management. Look how they negotiate with the cabin crew, ground crew, and flight crew. They talk for awhile, get all the information they can, try to figure what you will accept without doing anything, walk out of talks stating your group is unreasonable and force a contract on you.

So when someone states otherwise on Cprune the guys are all over them like white on rice. They are a strong bunch. Agreed some of the guys get emotional, but that is expected.

What about the Canadian Captain that just got demoted while talking industrial stuff while sitting in the jumpseat? Seems if we have a different opinion than the company, they will intimidate you to no end. Great way to run an outfit. Another great way to treat a fellow employee.

What about the Captain the FREAKS OUT, yes freaks out, at F/O's for having a yellow pen in his shirt. This Captain continues to FREAK OUT while in the cockpit clearing creating a Flight Safety hazard. Anything being done about this. Yes there is, the F/O is getting called into the office for an informal chat. Seems reasonable to me.

Cathay Pacific Management should be running a bush operation, because that is what it is turning out to be "A Bush Operation with 747's". The only reason they make money is because of their location.

Phlaps 1:

And Turbo-Beavers top eight reasons for quitting the Union are:

REASON 1: I can't afford the dues.

REASON 2: I don't believe in unions.

REASON 3: I don't need to be a member. I get everything that members get without paying the dues.

REASON 4: Who needs the Union? What has it ever done for me?

REASON 5: I don't like so and so.

REASON 6: The union is just here to get troublemakers out of the trouble they deserve to be in.

REASON 7: I don't want anything to do with the union. I'm trying to get promoted to boss.

REASON 8: I went to the union with a problem and didn't get any satisfaction.


Any the only excuse you can come up with is " Guys gang up on me when I post on Cpurne".

Traffic:

Point taken. I should say that in my numerous contacts with DT he has never come across as a "people-person" and what talents he has in fiscal control are not matched in personality. He projects a dour, authoritarian arrogance rather than the openness and gregarious nature of his predecessors, something which is not conducive to a line of new commanders forming outside his office in an anxious wait to shake his hand.

Now the soap-box bit:

None of the past nine years shenanigans has been the consequence of a one-sided pig-headedness. If Mr. T wants to go down in the books alongside PS and RE the vehicle to achieve it is staring him in the face. It will take a giant to take the first step to conciliation, and all I can see are dwarfs.

You can add JB to that list as well!

Capt Y

Thanks. There is reasonable middle ground for debate in us all.

DT is not a finance guy. He is as good with people as RE, PS, DB and even JB( as Hot Dog points out).

As KA is now bigger then CX was when all but RE were running the company, we are trying to compare apples with bananas.

CX is no longer a creche. How many hours in the day would DT need to cover the same ground as his predecessors. The task has grown exponentially in each last half decade. When PS left the role CX was KA in size.

The fact that the door is still open to new LHS's is unique for a company the size of CX.

Each and every one of us has a unique personality. I find comments that DT is an aloof beenie quite amusing. Of all the quoted predecessors, DT probably has the keenest wit, personality and sense of fair play.

His door is open. It is a pity more do not walk through it.

I am not sure the first step is his. If it is then a few gently reminding him of the fact will not be treated as childishly as comments offered from the jumpseat.

Again, I remind you jumpseaters, talk to the principal not the prefects.

Obsolete Observer - Your inappropriate and offensive remarks have been deleted - No further warnings.

Whilst other posters are conducting a mature debate on a very touchy subject your kind of comment contributes nothing.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

Thank you OO. Your response typifies the position of the pit bull element of the AA, oops AOA. Any reasonably moderate stance is vinegar to salve the wounds of your neurosis and responded to with vitriol and other assorted rubbish. No one is saying that DT is Gods gift to aviation or that he should be deified ala PS seems to be. The points made in the 'offending' post are very sensible and Traffic is commended for his forthrightness. More than a few agree with his position. Who is going to make the first real step towards progress here? Not OO and his ilk that's for sure.

_________________________________________________

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

shortly, why don't you find a mate who is a member of the AOA and watch the video of the last Focus Night. You seem to want everyone to be open and receptive to other peoples' thoughts and ideas. Maybe you shoud afford the same consideration to the group you have forsaken.

By the way, your comment above is really quite amusing. What makes you think you are part of the solution? You aren't a member of the AOA so that means you must be a manager. Otherwise how could you consider yourself to be part of the solution?

6FU. I have watched the videos of 'focus nights', I have many friends and colleagues in the AOA, I do give great thought and consideration to reasoned responses and ideas from members of the AOA. I am trying to be part of the solution. You see I think there are many, sorry I know there are many members of the AOA who also want to be part of the solution and are urging moderation but they are gagged and intimidated from within the AOA. You know the rhetoric - united front, evils of management, support your colleagues (49ers) etc etc - so don't voice any opinion contrary to the party line. I would like, even occasionally, a post which is in itself innocent enough but might contain, God forbid, an ostensibly moderate or even pro-company stance to also be given reasoned consideration and not villified and the writer pilloried. I particularly liked HFX's response to that polite reference to anuses and opinions earlier in this thread. I am glad that you found my axiom amusing. How about this one.
____________________________________________

If you are in a hole and you want to get out, the first thing to do is stop digging.

Did you watch the most recent focus night video? Judging by your reply I don't think so. Have a listen to the two VPs of the union, you might be pleasantly surprised. Personally I think the President makes a lot of sense as well.

I still don't think that you are part of the solution, you have forsaken the union and not admitted to being in management so how can you even think you are part of the process? Your attitudes are almost as entrenched as you claim the union's are.

Yes you are correct in that I have not seen the latest video, I will do so with great interest. I dispute that my attitudes are entrenched in anything other than a real want to get this dispute resolved. It hurts me when I hear management types saying 'what dispute?' They base that position on the good OTP and better bottom line at the moment. I wish they could grasp how much better the bottom line could be with a settled and more content pilot body. By the same token, I am sorry that the AOA cannot find a way to start the communication process with the company again. It would be difficult to meet the conditions apparently imposed by the company but it is probably the only real way forward and the only way to get some or all of the 49ers back with us. I am not against the litigation processes currently underway other than a personal dislike of lawyers and the growth of the litigious society we seem to live in. I just don't think they will be anything other than just hollow victories whoever wins the cases. I am only involved in the 'process' to the extent that I verbalise my feelings to anyone polite enough to listen. I have no feelings of angst and hold no feelings against those involved in the dispute on either side. If I have a fear it is that should the dispute escalate from the AOA side then the only possible response from the company would be to terminate more pilots - a lot more. I am happy that the AOA has been very circumspect in this area and will continue to be so. Thank you for furthering this very reasonable thread. There was a quite military style thread a little while ago which included quotes from various acknowledged military strategists which I found very illuminating. To paraphrase that, the most important maxim is the selection and maintenance of the aim. Maybe both sides have lost sight of that. Good luck to you.

I am sorry to have missed OOs response!

6FU, by my calculation CX must then have about 500 pilot managers using your criterion. You forget there are a substantial number of quite senior guys who are not in management and now not in the AOA. To say they are without influence is incorrect. To say that they are all uncaring and selfish twats just counting their money is also incorrect.

The simple point is that whilst DT may be the focus of a lot of the vitriol, and one of the ultimate arbiters, he is somewhat removed from the day-to-day minutae of this issue and will remain so. The recent demotion of the jumpseater was signed in the prefects room not the headmasters office.

When PS was in charge, there were large handouts. One year saw a 20% increase in salaries. At the time, HK was seen as a risky bet and the large increments helped ensure top quality aircrew were retained and recruitment not hindered. The costs per seat km soared. Just have a look at the historical costs over the past 15 years. A large increase in the early 90s, a flattening and slight drop in the mid nineties and a continued fall over the past 5 years. Without this attention to cost, CX would not be here today.

Provident fund cheques for over HKD 30m were being written in the mid 90s. The highest HKD35m. You do the math.

Personality is one thing but without a robust business that can weather the huge cycles of uncertainty CX would be destined for the scrapheap and with it 1600 flying jobs.

Slimming down has created a lot of tension and the current complex web of contracts is unwieldy and not conducive to stability or, for that matter, a vibrant AOA.

Having said that, it is obvious that the focus on cost remains. A number of the guys retiring this year would have accepted extensions but the simple fact is it simply prolongs the cost bulge and is not an option. If recruitment was a problem they perhaps would have been extended but as Shortly points out, it is not.

The AOA leadership has accepted the fact that many of the 49ers will not be back and have been negotiating from that stance. The rank and file should know this.

The hole is deep enough already. Before the soil is used for reclamation elsewhere, stop the digging, turn down the volume and knock on the front door not the back door.

Noone is saying things are great but there is a greater chance of aggregate improvement in compromise and rebuilding trust. Litigation may help maintain the rage but it is not the road to Nirvana.

Pilots are being commoditised the world over. The test is whether the lot at CX is better or worse than elsewhere. If it is still better, on the whole, then we acknowledge the fact, bury the hatchet and work on sharing the upside and not focussing on reducing our share of the downside.

Open to more abuse!!

Oh dear my little legs are so sore having had them smacked soooo hard!

Shortly, as you seem to be in favour of not exacerbating the situation, and feel that someone has to make the first move..........

Perhaps you might explain why CX management has refused to renew the freighter agreement, or indeed even talk to the HKAOA about it, said agreement runs out December 31st........

Talk about pouring petrol on troubled waters......

It is noted that you STILL haven't denied identified your position with CX......don't still play hockey do you?:p

The agreement was for 3 years and was due to expire 1st jan 2003, company gave 3mo's notice of cancellation of the contract, as was the requirement.
I can't see anything fishy there. Union and CX not talking, hence no new contract.

(Or am I missing another 'conspiracy'? LOL)

Oasis.

Traffic, great post, well articulated and very logical 9 out of 10 for posts. If any libellous comments come your way as a result of the post, well I wouldn't worry about them. Hey OO you tell me who you are first ok. By the by, I have played one game of field hockey back in 1973, our team were short a fullback and as I was a quite good soccer centre fullback got a crash course in handling rods, oops I mean sticks. Only played the one game, saw one of our team get a full on hit of the ball in the face - deliberate and not a pretty sight. We were playing a team of catholic brothers from a catholic priests college, could be giving a bit too much away there lol, what their player did was definitely not very charitable or christian though. And I don't see any conspiracy with regard to the freighters contracts. They seem reasonably happy and their attitude to the company could be rewarded soon - or at least that's what the dogs are barking in the Ikea gay bar.

Shortly:

TRIPE

I can just see it now..."All the freighter pilots and non-AOA members will be rewarded with a bonus and the AOA members will be punished until their morale and attitude improves."

For an otherwise (professed) intelligent person, that is amongst the most asinine comments ever made on this forum. Not only feeble, but you have also just identified yourself. I will be sure to stop by and greet you next week... (taps nose).

What are you blithering about CU. It is a not so real secret that the freighters fleets are far happier and have better morale than the passenger ones. There will be new contracts sorted out for the freighter guys soon and all I am repeating is that it is expected to include a reasonable pay situation. How on earth did you read all that other stuff into that simple comment? OIC, paranoia rules ok. Don't you think that we all know that the freight carried us through the difficult time and is still doing well, don't you think they deserve a bit more? I certainly do.

Shortly,

You obviously don't talk to many freighter crews. All but 2 of the Aussie Classic Captains are so "happy" they have requested a transfer to the pax fleet as FOs. The Brits are starting to look at their options as well.

Since when did anyone get a pay rise because they "deserve" it. If that were true teachers and nurses would be the most highly paid people on the planet. They are not, and nor will freighter pay change dramatically come the New Year.

LG

No comment on whether crews are happy or otherwise as, apart from a few that I know, I wouldn't have a clue.

I think you'll find that the Aussie freighter crews requested the transfer because the Tax Office here has just changed our income tax laws.

I think you'll also find that there have been many of pax fleet based crew in Aus that have requested transfers back to HK for the same reason.

Whoopsy there "Obso-observer"...I was banned from jet blast and still am for challenging a hormonal moderator, and will remain so, as my comments were not out of line, or context...but it looks once again the union side of you is showing...oh well....again folks lets bare all the FACTS of the hiring ban and be honest with ourselves...it is hypocritical, and non productive.

You got banned from JB because your posts were way, way out of line. To suggest it was because the moderator was 'hormonal' is just the kind of rubbish one might expect from an Alpha Male and is no defence at all. My colleague on Jet Blast deals with all kinds of nonsense in the course of her day and the fact that you were banned from JB, the most liberal of Forums, tells me that you got it all very wrong. Trying to blame your situation on the moderator is a low blow indeed. Grow up.

Blue Eagle - Moderator.

Backspace,

The ATO's Determination Notice hastened the decision for many or was the final straw; however the point remains the (Classic) Freighter cannot be described as a happy bunch with high morale.

Some the statements that Shortly blandly flings around and would have us believe to be fact, need to be challenged; the state of the Freighter fleet is but one such statement.

To actually paraphrase what I said 'They seem reasonably happy...the freighter fleets are far happier and have better morale than the passenger ones'. I stand by those statements and consider them close to the mark. The point in the threads surrounding those remarks was the alleged conspiracy within the company with regard to the freighter contracts. I also made the point that the freighter guys deserve more, during your selective and innaccurate quotation you deigned to miss that. I love the way that the AOA pit bulls have their selective memory in full flight with regard to the freighter crews, I attended a meeting where that lovely word 'scab' was bandied about in regard to them, how they had to form their own association and weren't welcome (then) in the AOA. The AOA body split the CX pilot community when ASL was introduced and they are doing it again with the new joiners now. It was the easy option then and it is again now. It was a mistake then and it is a mistake now. But time will mend the latest mistake too, but not before some are driven away from pilot unions altogether. Anyone who thinks that the doubling and more of salary by transferring to pax fleet as FO, and the ATO latest finding aren't the reasons for freighter captains making that decision are deluding themselves.

Ironbutt my dear chap, no need to languish in your exile any longer.
In a fluke state of Hormonal Happiness I have decided that it is time to once again welcome you with open arms to Jet Blast. :)
You might of course not wish to frequent our humble establishment and rather revel in your martyrdom, but hey ..... give the Mods of the serious fora a break.

The preposterous & crackbrained belong in the cellar, not here. :D

Back to the thread, apologies to all for this irrelevant but conciliatory interlude.

Oh boy oh boy oh boy...cheerio there your most gracious hormonalness.....see you there:D :D :D :cool: ;)