So called SCABS
 

Just want to know from a non-pilot here !!!

Have all you Union guys who call new joiners Scabs amongst others ..........

Turned down commands at CX in support of your sacked Captain comrades ?????

So sorry !!! Silly me !!!! :eek:

funny that isn't it. Asked the same question 6 months ago. see you at BJ's tomorrow night for a couple of coldies.

Heartfelt Wishes
 

My sympathy is with the guys struggling to get a real airline job and provide for their families !!!

CX may be the 1st and only job offer they can get at the moment. Sad to think that after all the years of work they get the job offer of their life to be treated like .......

Tick One :

__ Professional colleagues
__ Competant Aviators
__ s**t

I wish the very best to you all !


:rolleyes: :D :(

captain white

I am professional and competent otherwise I wouldn't be working for Cathay (god, that sounds great doesn't it?) today. If people want to call me names that is their right. I have my friends up here in HK and a lot are not aircrew. I worked hard for my flying qualifications and my daddy didn't pay one red cent towards it now I am continuing my career in the job I have always wanted.
sometimes you have to make hard decisions - this time wasn't one. AOA could be OK but they have to get there house in order. I don't intend to let a union screw my life like they did my brothers. the AFAP like the AOA were OK but they lost direction and were living in a dream world like mr Hopkins
good luck to the 49s and all the new hires up here life will be good once the cobwebs settle.

Truth seekers...indeed thou art living in a dream world. Remove thine rose tinted sunnies and look beyond thine nose.

TSI,

TRUST ME, having seen the bebarcle of '89 and the never ending fallout, I totaly understand your position, and respect your decision to join.

BUT, the existing Cathay guys and ESPECIALLY the 49ers have real and valid reason to want to take action against the company.

Whilst I disagree with their tactics, and believe that the HKAOA has no right to vilify or ostracise you, I don't think throwing it in their face is wise, helpful or necessary.

Show yourself to be above the pettiness and anger. Do your job well. Be freindly, honest and helpful. Rationaly explain your position when you get the chance.

There will be a percentage of guys you can write off right now from EVER seeing that there is another side to this. But, given time, I think a lot of your new work mates will except you if YOU make an effort to fit in, rather than DEMANDING that they back off.

The company is making all the right noises to you now. Don't count on them looking after you for the whole of your career.

The HKAOA has not “vilified or ostracised” anyone…yet. The Scablists have been produced by some vigilante members and reproduced by K** B***** himself. The HKAOA has officially asked their members to “back off” of the Scabs…for now. The HKAOA is trying to give peace a chance again, but the membership is running out of patience. As previously stated, the Scabs ain't seen nothing yet. This will be a very long career, regardless of the outcome of the dispute.

It is true that the management have stated that they will not stand for any intimidation and they went so far has to introduce some “rules” in vol 1 regarding this matter. Here you have a system where a brand new S/O can walk up to the DFO’s office and “rat” on a Senior Captain for making him feel “uncomfortable” and “intimidated”. Who wants to fly with the Scabs now? Great work environment created by management, isn't it?

Sand Dune,

No. This is an environment created equally by Cathay Managment, IFALPA, HKAOA and individual hot head pilots.

This is the start of a pretty awful outcome. It was, however, entirely predictable (see my first post on this subject.)

The IFALPA resolution specifically states that pilots joining during the ban would "Not be welcomed" by the HKAOA. That means ostracised, and if you thought it wouldn't also lead to vilification, you were dreaming. Your use of the phrase "Back off the Scabs" is an oxymoron as it is in itself vilifying.

If the HKAOA really wants to "Give peace a chance" it will retrospectively drop the ban and welcome all new-comers into the union.

Anything less will play into managment hands by dividing your working group even further.

Wizofoz,

I stand corrected. It might only me semantic, but the leadership of HKAOA has NEVER used the term “Scabs”. The leadership of HKAOA has NEVER produced any “scab” list or initiated any action against the scabs. The leadership of the HKAOA is doing its best to keep the membership on a tight leash and diffuse the situation. They are quite successful at it because the situation is presently VERY CALM (before the storm?) People within the membership initiated certain actions against the scabs, but the leadership of the HKAOA has asked the members to stop any action against the “Replacement Workers” (that’s the term used by the leadership of the HKAOA.) Ken Barley was the first one to use the term “Scabs” in a statement, saying that blacklisting or Scabbing was “Industrial action of the worst kind” (by the way, destroying the career of 50+ Pilots IS industrial action of the worst kind).

The HKAOA is made of 1300 individuals. These individuals have to “vote in” any new members with a majority vote. I think that “retrospectively drop the ban and welcome all new-comers into the union” is wishful thinking. Regardless of what IFALPA or the HKAOA General Committee might recommend to the membership, I can assure you that the “Scabs” will find it very difficult to be “voted in” by ANY Union anywhere in the world.

The IFALPA Recruitment Ban is a REACTION and was put in place THREE MONTHS after the 49ers were wrongfully terminated by MANAGEMENT. MANAGEMENT created this situation. This membership is only trying to protect itself and the 49ers from an ongoing attack on their contract and conditions of service. Without organisations like IFALPA and HKAOA, we would not have any of the things that we all take for granted and that our grand fathers did not have: paid leave, safe working conditions, pension, medical, etc…

If you absolutely want to term the IFALPA Recruitment Ban “ostracising and vilifying” so be it. What terms you will be left with using when the dogs are unleashed and REAL action is taken against the “Replacement workers” (Rhetorical question)

PS. To anyone out there thinking that an upgrade ban is the solution, how would you implement it? Please consider that with an official Upgrade Ban in place, if a member were to “turn down” or “knock back” his upgrade, he would be terminated for no particular reason. Members would be exposed and picked off one by one. This management is ruthless and has to be dealt with in a “guerrilla warfare” fashion. To think otherwise is simply naïve and uneducated. Unless you've been here and seen it, you can not truly appreciate the evil ways of this management.

So called Scabs
 

Sand Dune you are not for real. Once again you convince the hoi polloi of the complete hypocrisy of the AOA. You are not making any sense at all. AOA members accepting upgrades and promotions - to their financial and professional benefit - because they are scared they would be terminated if not accepting same. Sitting in 49ers seats whilst those seats are still warm. Yet these same hypocrites expect aircrew outside the union not to take employment with CX to those persons financial and professional detriment. You can be sure that those who knock CX back now because of the ban will not on the first mail call when this farsical ban is ended.

What would be the outcome if ALL the Training Captains were to resign their training position?

Is that a feasible suggestion, or are there enough non-AOA captains to replace them?

You know it's funny, there is the very same IFALPA Recuitment Ban at an airline in South America. Nobody seems very upset about that. Maybe it's because they don't pay as much. So that's what it's all about, selling out to the highest bidder.

That airline in South America is pulling the same **** as CX. Fired a whole lot more guys, you aren't bleeting about their ban. You aren't busting down their door to get a job, should be some openings I would think. Probably just doesn't pay enough to warrant the moral arguments that seem to come up hear.

Getting a work visa might also be a small consideration. Raising your children in a place not very pleasant might be another. Not a very sensible option for those unemployed I would think. And yes there is a ban in place by IFALPA, they have forever in my view lost credibility because of that support for a Claytons ban.

frankg....."It doesn't matter what you say. There is a ban in place. If you join CX now, your name is going on a list, it's that simple. No amount of whining here will get it removed"

------------------------------------
frank........I've read and agreed with most of your posts for a long time now - especially in response to the demented Cessna lover from the desert.

HOWEVER I fear you're getting myopic. The same logic you're applying to the young new joiners struggling to get out of GA etc MUST be applied to those taking upgrades. No amount of twisting logic will change that fact.

Upgraders are DIRECTLY taking the jobs of the '49ers. If you tag the young guys with the title then you simply MUST label all upgraders as scabs.......no twisting logic will change this fact.

CX management should not feel proud of this situation they have helped create, it is an embarrasment to them and as time and history will certainly prove, will devalue Cathay and their own careers which is all they care for. The HKAOA should be ashamed of themselves also. By alienating new joiners they are dividing themselves and the path they are taking at present is only going to lead to the permanent marginalising of the union.

Something assertive needs to be done now, be it a 'face-saving' leadership change or a deadline for re-instatement of the '49ers or whatever. But this meandering industrial weakness is rapidly making you guys an irrelevance.

Many people are on your side here but you are losing or have lost the momentum.

Taking your aggression out on some poor young new joiner is pathetic however and conveniently forgetting to label upgraders as scabs is disgraceful.

Time to get your collective heads out of the sand, concentrate on the big picture, act decisevely and fix up the mess you are in.

The result is not going to be as you would have liked but if you don't do something decisive ans soon, the result will be terrible

Original Question please !!
 

:D Has anyone at CX refused a promotion to support the reinstatement of their colleagues ???

I would be astounded if they had, but offer my congratulations for acting instead of whinging !!!

:rolleyes:

Frankg,

If an explanation has been put forward as to why an upgrade ban is not effective, I must have missed it. The only explanations put forward on this forum have been that it is too big a sacrifice, and that it may lead to more sackings (again, Cathay pilots not willing to make sacrifices they expect others to make on their behalf.)

It's not fair, but you support it. If I said the sacking of the 49ers wasn't fair, but I supported it, it would no doubt incur your wrath.

Unfair is unfair. You have stated, rather menacingly, that anybody chosing not to be dealt with in a way you admit is unfair is "To be put on a list". But you don't want a list published because you understand that the shear hypocricy of such an act would undermine your position.

If you think the ban is unfair and ineffective, for christ sake be a man and stand up for people you know are being unfairly victimised. Just because an action is the direction of a Union does not make it beyond accountability to civilised standards. "I was just following orders" has been used in the past.

YOU are responsible for thr outcome of your actions, be they individual, or as a member of a group. Don't hide behind "There was a ban in place" when the consequences blow up in your face.

By the way, I sent an email objecting to the ban. It was not published along side the "Support From Around The World"

Don't take edited propaganda as proof of your position.

Frank, I must agree that unfair is unfair. All sorts of tenuous analogies being used in support of this Claytons ban. This union lost it for me when it supported the break up of the pilot body in Cathay. You may delude yourself that more militant action will lead to a positive outcome for you but, in reality, given the fragmented state of pilots in Cathay further action will only lead to more dismissals and will not be successful. Sure the bottom line will bend a bit, sure the travelling public will be disadvantaged again. The aircraft will keep flying and the union will go down the gurgler. You must take whatever steps are necessary, however difficult, however humbling to get back to the table.

shortly, your location says Hong Kong. If that is true you are up a bit late! Are you with CX? The reason I ask is because anyone close to this thing knows that the union is prepared to talk, anytime, anywhere. They have requested repeated meetings but continually get stonewalled.

It's the company that won't humble themselves to come back to the table. That would signal the end of their attempt at a union bust. Once they realise they aren't going to bust the union then they will talk, they'll have no choice.

6ft.....this is the problem....they ARE breaking the union.

This inneffectual situation is just bypassing the HKAOA altogether.
Every day people resign from the union and potential new-joiners are victimised.

The 49'ers are never going to get their jobs back, that much should be evident by now. You need to sit down and reassess the make-up of the Committee and regain some credibility and relevance.

There is still a small window of opportunity available whilst you have unity but the window and the unity are diminishing daily.

Unfortunately the "lockout" tactic used by Companies involved in industrial disputes usually results in the union coming off second best. If management doesn't need/want to talk to the union then there is not much the union can do about it.

I witnessed the same tactics in the '89 Pilot's Dispute in Australia. The on going pleading by Brian Mac. about "all we want to do is talk to the Companies". Abeles and Co. just went about their business of "re-building" the airlines using all available resources. This included hiring foreign labour, local GA and former employees. A sad day for aviation in Australia but at the end of the day the Company got it's way and the Federation of Air Pilots was crushed as an effective union.

The situation in Hong Kong and Cathay Pacific is, IMHO, headed the same way. You have a management who refuses to talk to it's employees and a union that has no effective way of countering that situation. The recruitment ban is futile and no more than nuisance value to Cathay. They appear to be still getting pilots and will continue to do so as more people join up. As with the '89 dispute, the new hires are not welcomed into the union, therefore further weakening it's (HKAOA) industrial position.

Having been there and done that, I know what you guys are going through and am sorry I can't offer a solution. Having gone over (and over and over and over) what happened to us in '89 and still can't come up with "where we went wrong", I can only wish you all the very best of luck.

The very common sense solution for these "misguided" guys is to smile at their bank book and realise that they have one of the best contract jobs in airline flying.
Simple as that.:rolleyes:

Justa question for you 3 holer. How many of the 4 airlines - Ansett, Australian, East-West, and IPEC - are around today to boast of that "victory" over the pilots?
The answer is NOT ONE.
Rather than negotiate with the pilots union - the AFAP, which by the way IS still alive and well, AND represents the ONLY all domestic Australian airline pilots (Virgin Blue) - the management of those 4 airlines killed the very companies for which purportedly ran.
Let no-one hold the Australian dispute as an example of successful anti-union strategy. It was a grand example of irresponsible management that baited their workers and then refused discusssion. The result was the demise of the companies - NOT the union that represented the pilots. The "manager" of Ansett at the time, Graeme MacMahon now works behind a bar at a Melbourne football club, whilst the majority of the 78% of pilots who didn`t scab found airline employment overseas - a percentage of these have since returned to fly for Virgin Blue.

It`s obvious that the CX management feel they can also gain a "victory", however the AOA has still not used the full complement of artillery available to them, and in a war of attrition and guerilla-style tactics by the HKAOA, the management have apparently lost their sense of responsibility to the company and ultimately their OWN security.

6 feetunder. Thankyou for your reasoned response to my post. Yes I am in Hong Kong, yes I work for CX. I understand that the union has been attempting to negotiate, but as far as I can see, always against a backdrop of union activity against the company. This distressing state of affairs has now been ongoing for 8 years - ridiculous. Drop all action, replace the committee and get back to the table. I know that ND and co are well thought of by the majority of the union and that the committee supporters would consider it a breach of faith to stop supporting them. There is a bigger picture, all I want is for people actively involved to take off their blinkers. And finally I am as distressed at the fate of the 49ers as anyone but reality and my experience tells me that they are sadly historical relics of a stupid fight.
Regards.

Kaptin M. Your grasp of logic is a bit confusing. So now the union which represented pilots from many companies all over Australia represents the members of one company basically in one city. And the vast majority of aviators caught up in the dispute, involving, as is the case here, part time inept union management on one side and full time company management on t'other, have to work overseas or outside avaiation. You say they won? All the rich folk behind the scenes are smiling still and their lawyers and accountants are smiling and the wives and children and children's children of the brave but so naive pilots involved are still scarred. Remember how many took their own lives? The horror of being unemployed with no immediate chance of employment and bills to pay and food to buy and homes to lose fortunes on is beyond shocking. Look at the bigger picture, save the union, there will be winnable battles later when you will get all you are asking for now and more. If you must consider the antipodean situation look what happened to salaries after the dispute was over.

Kaptin M, if you are really trying to tell me that the AFAP has the same industrial strength and expertise it had prior to the '89 dispute, then I must bring to your attention couple of changes to the pilot's lot that have taken place down here whilst you have been up there in the land of the rising sun.

1. General aviation in this country has never been worse and it's decline started in 1991. Wages and working conditions have deteriorated because the AFAP do not have the resources or industrial muscle to pull offending Operators into line anymore. This area ie. GA is the biggest section of the AFAP membership. It is not all the union's fault, as some pilots will continue to work for peanuts and bend the rules to stay in a job and more pilots are doing it these days because the AFAP does not represent a threat to the Companies anymore.

2. Virgin pilots work 70 to 80 hours a month, minimum rest on overnights and are paid (Capt. $120,000 & FO. $63,000) nowhere near their domestic opposition Qantas pilots. Do you honestly believe that 13 years ago there would be such a disparity between the two domestic airlines. By the way, the National Jet pilots are also in the Federation and their pay scales are similar and have been for the past 13 years!

It is a fact that any airline will go out of business if it is not managed properly. I have noticed a number of your posts imply that because Ansett didn't tow the AFAP line, that's the reason it went out of business. More than a little arrogant Kap (?) I do concede that because of the length of the dispute, Ansett was severly damaged financially at the time but it had many years to recover had it had good management. IPEC and East West were never realistically expected to survive because of their size, so if it makes you feel better - yes, the AFAP did put them out of business.

You say

Let no-one hold the Australian dispute as an example of successful anti-union strategy.

There is no one I have met in the past 13 years that has held that point of view. I am sure Hawke, Crean or Kelty would have blown their bags had that been the case - deathly silence. The whole thing was a total disaster for everyone in the airline industry and many more associated with it. There were no winners and I have never heard anyone "boast" of a victory over the pilots for the same reasons as above.

My point was and still is - the Cathay Dispute has disturbing similarities to our war of '89. The Company will not talk to the Pilots - FULL STOP. The Recruitment Ban is not working and if this drags on too much longer the new recruits will out number the AOA membership and another good pilot's union will go down the drain.

In this industry, good CRM dictates we learn from the mistakes of others. The HKAOA must change their strategy very soon or..as we have
heard before - the Fat Lady will be priming her vocal chords for the Grande Finale.

What's that I hear? Its the big Mama herself,La,La La,La,La,LaLa, that's right folks, yes indeedy It's The Fat Lady and she's warming up those vocal chords! Her Last Performance was in Australia a few months ago, lets hope this is not a repeat performance! :mad: :mad:

shortly, I take it you aren't a member of the AOA? If you were you probably wouldn't make such callous statements regarding the victims of CX management. It isn't just the 49ers, there were unwarranted demotions as well as ridiculous recategorisations. What about them? More relics? And it continues.

You would also remember a conversation between the President and DT that basically lays out the option of dropping everything in hopes of resovling this thing. Unfortunately the CE didn't want to play, he could have had it then. Now that was an OFFER he shouldn't have refused. He wants it all and you seem prepared to give it to him. Where does it end?

6feetunder, sorry if I offended. Not intentional. Ex member of AOA left after being ignored and not agreeing with action being taken or not taken. I have made my position clear on my sympathies for the 49ers and any other innocents drawn into this mess and in that last post was only being frank. I am no union bashing management stooge. I am an experienced operator been around the block a few times. I am hopeful of damage control and this damage control will only be instigated by the AOA. Talk of the re-election of current leadership of union with clear mandate for militancy fills me with dread for all of us. Reference to that promise to 'drop everything', it wasn't everything was it.
Regards to you and my sincere condolences to the 49ers. I am convinced that the victims of this dispute, although shabbily treated by management, are in their position because of the constant union activity against the company and an escalation of that activity. I am thankful, in a perverse sort of way, that it was not more.

So shortly, you mention action taken or not taken. What action would you like to have seen taken? All the 'activity' was strictly one way was it? There have been no attacks (for lack of a better word) from the company, is that what you are saying? You are better off now then you were say 5 years ago?

6feetunder. I did not want to get involved in a thread with you or anyone that could lead to further acrimony between just us or that might offend others. OK, here goes with no malice aforethought. Action not taken first. Any pilot who legally joins this airline should have automatic right to join its union. I am talking about two groups here, first the ASL pilots - remember them - ostracised, discriminated against, vilified and I recall the scab word then too, the decision to ban them from the AOA was the second or maybe third mistake the part time AOA management made which led towards the place we are now. Second, any pilot with a letter before the ban should not be held liable. Further, the AOA moderates Cprune, that is not being done professionally enough, in my opinion. Scab lists have no place on a professional pilots network. Lists of non-union members, isn't union membership by choice? Since when did it become compulsory? And, by not moderating lists of this nature they are inevitably innacurate causing much pain and revulsion. Moderating some of the vitriolic language would also seem so obvious as not worth mentioning but it is not done. The AOA advised its members to stop posting on this web page, reason, because management has access, rubbish, its because on this forum both points of view are expressed and arguments can be taken to an occasional logical conclusion. I have a shock for the AOA, management have access to Cprune also. Action taken, decisions not to acquaint the membership with all details of offers made, not completely stopping action against the company whilst ostensibly seeking negotiations etc. I tried in vain to convince people to accept the offer that included all captains on A scales. I would have convinced the 49ers that it was in the greater interest to accept that humbling 'interview to assess loyalty' before re-hiring and horribly I do not think all would have been re-hired, but most would. I am not one of those who believe ND and co have done a good job, quite to the contrary. On both side of this dispute there are egos and ulterior motives involved and these have no place in dispute moderation. As usual regards to you and yours. If you are a 49er then you have my greatest sympathy and if I can help you, without hurting others, that would be my earnest desire.

cadets?
 

heard that the CX cadets are not included in the ban? Is this true?

Do you think this is a for real ban? Or just a Claytons ban? You know the ban you are having when you are not having a ban.

Shortly,

Your a pathetic joke.

Continuous industrial attacks by the union, you cant be serious.
Did the union start the scrap in 99'

HUSTLER

Ouch Hustler, by the way, 'your' adjective of or belonging to you. 'You're', shortened version of you are. Coming from you I take that as a compliment. 99 - you were already nearly five years into industrial action against the company. Please tell the facts as they are. What did you expect? CX to roll over and play dead for you?

i can tell you now that this industrial stuff is going just like the 1989 dispute down in Oz. I know because my brother was involved in it. There are more guys joining up here every month and the courses are filling up.this trickle will end up a flood and in a years time when cathay have over two hundred plus pilots employed that stupid ban is going to look pretty sick and so is the AOA because that is 200 pilots that won't be members. you would be interested to know that some members of the AOA that i have met don't think the ban is working and is splitting the membership - right into the hands of Management. you will soon have the AOA with less members than pilots in Cathay and that will be a blow to the union.

TSI. You are quite correct. I know for a fact that Ozzie 89ers tried to provide AOA disunion committee with advice on what happened in Oz. They were rebutted - different time and place being the ostensible excuse for ignoring them. Well, the place, here in Hong Kong is far less hospitable to union activity than most other places. I am not saying that's good, merely a fact of life here. The only way back to the negotiating table would be with a new committee. Hope the remaining membership speaks out against increased militancy at the upcoming election. The ones that shout the loudest aren't necessarily correct. CX management must be laughing as the committee fractures the pilot body yet again. There is no way forward as things stand. The ban is a joke, OTP is great, sickness levels are down and the company is making money. Why should they capitulate now? To all intents and purposes they have already won. I am still really sad that most if not all of the 49ers could be re-employed now if the disunion committee hadn't been pushing a different barrow.