flyingkiwi....I believe it's also YOUR contract that has YOU retiring at 55. Of course, as soon as you make Captain, you will suddenly see the light...:mad:

How can you possibly see any light when your head is shoved up your @ss...moron :ugh:

"The Management" and the real management must really love reading this thread it fits their argument very well as to why they do not need to give us a pay rise. There are a few mental pygmies around.

We have the "new" dreamers who think they are going to change the world - nobody has tried it before and we are going to have a really strong union because of the new GC they wish elected. The sad people who just continually blame the "A" scalers - and before anyone asks I am B scale - and obviously spout off without getting their facts correct. Just the sort of new commander we want - goes off at a tangent with blinkered ideas and views.

The pilots that think they are the only ones that have been disadvantaged and that anyone that does not have his retirement sorted by the time they are 40 is a looser. There are a lot of Captains and Senior First Officers who have already had their careers disadvantaged and would like the chance to recover some of their losses. So for those that might have their career slightly disadvantaged - but will have the extra years available to them to recover - stop whining - get over it - it is called LIFE!!:ugh::ugh:

How many A scalers?
 

Yes, Max they are in the minority. I figure about 380 of them, and about 1700 of us. Looking at the nominations, 4 A scalers nominated (which works out at about 1%), leaving 18 out of about 1700; again about 1%.

I haven't broken down the numbers for each rank, but maybe someone can..


Given the overall small numbers of pilots putting their hands up for this, should we perhaps consider increasing the size of the GC? I mean, it seems crazy to vote two guys out when in reality we should be thankful that people are even interested..

my point is that A scale argue that we accepted the B scale package when we joined.. well thats fair enough but they are the ones complaining about retiring at 55 when that is the package that they accepted when they joined. You cant ague both points, either stop telling us B scalers that we are wrong to want the same deal as you or stop complaining about having to retire at 55. Going to 65 affects our command timing and if someone joined last year the effect would mean they would have to work to 65 only to earn the same as if they reitred at 55 with the current command time.

FK

A scale has had three paycuts up to 28% since 1999. No payrise since 1994.

Hey Dragon69,

Perhaps you could enlighten us...

Why is ATY a 'Moron' just because he has a different point of view to you?

Perhaps you need to get your head out of your a$$ and realize that there are people out here who are just as entitled as any other to a point of view.

I sincerely hope you are in a position to retire at 55. That said, I'm sure that once you have your command your stance will move a little to the right.

We cant afford to alienate any of the pilot fractions. Whether A/B/C scales, local pilots and freighter pilots, we must all pull together or else we will never have a hope of taking on this company. If we dont band together PPRUNE will continue as our whinging forum forever!!!
There definitely seems to be a change in the air with the new President and most of the GC, we have to give them all a chance and get behind them.

A scale has had three paycuts up to 28% since 1999. No payrise since 1994.

Yes and you are still 20-30 % more than B scales. And now you want A scales to 65.

Quick question here: When ASL was introduced were you pissed off with them because your command got delayed?
Did you not see ASL as a Direct entry Captain deal?
Did you miss out on bases because they were going to Freighted pilots instead of Passenger crews?

If you have answered yes to any of these, do not expect the a B scale pilot to buy you a beer when you extend to 65.

Max Reheat,

How many that want to extend to 65 are actually doing it because they do not have enough to retire on. I guarantee you the majority that want to extend have more than I will ever hope to have when I turn 55. It has nothing to do about not having enough money, and all about being Capt. Smith as opposed to Mr. Smith. :yuk:

That's all relative isn't? If you are trying to equal Mr. Gates well you're never going to have enough are you?

And what makes you think I don't have my command???

Dragon 69

You don't write like a Captain, that's all.....!

I noticed the same thing. Although, I'm a having a hard time pin-pointing if he is a simple JFO or just a lousy SO. Well, they will straight his a$$ out during his command course!!!

Keep A scales
 

I am not an A scale pilot, however I am very happy to have them around so that they are a much juicier target for Management when the next round of pay cuts eventually comes along!

When the A scale guys have gone, us B scale pilots will be perceived in the same way as the A scalers are now, by both Management and junior pilots.

The real issue is that CX have got us all working harder and for less than ever before. We don't need a bigger slice of the cake, we need a much bigger cake to go around.

BTW.

Cumguzzler, didn't you used to be Cumgargler? If so why the change?

....and now with the announcement of limited baggage weights, increase of our subload tickets to account for the increasing fuel costs, somehow I don't see anyone 'baking the cake' sooner.
:hmm:

Cumgargler? That's disgusting!!!!!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

How depressing when a thread on Nominations go this way and has less responses than that of a thread called Cathay Girls. Just proves to the rest of the world how stupid pilots can really be. I guess no one wants a union instead just keep slagging it off along with anyone and everything else. Soo much for a constructive thread.....

In the space of a day commands have gone from 8 to 20 years due ASL/oasis/RA65. There is no way on gods earth that the average F/O who joined the company at age 30 and is still an f/o at age 50 can recoup even 30% of that by working to 65. The irony is that A scalers say they will drop out due medical before they reach 65 while b scalers will have to work to 65 medical or not. I spent an afternoon with my financial advisor and no matter how you swing the numbers if RA 65 comes in B scalers get poor and A scalers get rich.

Even with a 28% pay cut an A scaler going to 65 retires with over 4 times what a B scaler retires on. As always I'm happy to look at any spreadsheets that show it really ain't that bad.

stillalbatross. that's right...keep flogging the A-scale horse. Any other airline you care to mention has a 65 retirement age. No matter where you go, that will be the reality. Why don't you grow up a bit and realise that your only hope of a 'proper' career depends on you convincing/coercing the company to provide you with proper pay, benefits and working conditions. Trying to prevent your fellow colleagues from working to a sensible age is not going to achieve any of those things. The 65 debate is over....65 has won throughout the industry...won't be any different at CX.

If only it were that easy. How am i supposed to do that when 'my' AOA tells me that RA65 won't make a lick of difference to command times? How am I supposed to do that when I show the union a list of a half dozen airlines who's change to RA65 has increased command times proportionally and they laugh it off as irrelevant?

Ahh, because the AOA isn't my union, it's yours.

Maybe the company could offer the local package DEC RA65 to anyone with a rating and experience so they wouldn't need to pay A scale above 55 and throw in Command basing slots too for the same package. Then you'd be on the receiving end just like us............

I guess B scalers will keep flogging the 'A scale horse' whilst A scalers tell them "tough, thats life" or, "it's industry standard" or "you can work to 65 like us to make up the shortfall".

The vast majority of us joined on a contract that had the terms clearly explained. We knew what we would earn in each rank but we had no promises of when we would upgrade. There was never any doubt that retirement age was 55 - the legal age for flying was higher than that in many of our recruitment markets for quite a while. In spite of the difference in the CX RA and our national RA we joined anyway! We joined as the lower RA would lead to a faster upgrade time!

So where is a B scaler vs A scaler today? Well if a B scaler joined the same day as me and was on the same career path (with the exception of remaining HKG based throughout) he would be about $5.9million worse off (after 15 years). If I was still in the old PF (CPALRS) he would be $11.2million worse off. As we move forward from this date he still needs over a 20-25% increase in salary and PF to keep the gap from increasing. I have ignored investment return on the excess - it is purely the cumulative nominal difference.

So unlike some PPRUNE posters I am finding it a little hard to justify RA65 as just 'tough luck' and 'industry standard'. CX has wanted RA60 since at least 2000. That was long before any supposed legal pressure at outports. They didn't introduce in 2000/01 as the then AOA President pointed out that they would have to compensate everyone affected and basically everyone is affected - we are all affected in terms of delayed seniority in staff travel, basing availability, roster bidding etc.

RA65 will be the norm in CX one day. Whether it is now or when the first CoS08 comes up for command is up to us to determine as the contract cannot be varied without our agreement. Last summer CX wanted to blackmail FOs into signing onto new 'based contracts' that would have included RA65 and waived their right to bypass pay. That was probably the main reason the GC voted against presenting the deal to the membership.

The way forward - we have about 1400+ pilots who joined prior to CoS08 who are FO/SOs - they should receive compensatory bypass pay above what is required of CX now. Those payments need to be far more transparent and rigorously enforced unlike the arbitrary distribution that occurs under 'Company Policy' - its in the contract, it should be paid accordingly.

Any work beyond 55 should be on the same T + C's as existed prior to RA55.


Until we get a fair and equitable solution CX can continue to extend on whatever terms people are happy to work for and CX will occasionally incur bypass pay commitments for those it can't 'back door' through a myriad of basings options - I didn't even know HKG was a base until recently!

If we are going to go to 65 , we must all be on one scale. Why should you be on A me on B and the rest on C?

One airline one pay to 65...that is fair!!!

amen to that!

Of course we should all be on the same pay scale!

But it isn't going to happen until (and if) all CX pilots manage to unite on a few matters.

I love reading about B scalers complaining about A scalers who want to extend on A scales, ie, their own contract.


Surely all B scalers will want to extend on their own contract - B scales, or are you going to be happy to extend past 55 on the next cheapest pay scale, as you seem to expect the A scalers to do?

....basically this is the most pointless of arguments. 65 is going to happen very soon. The other world airlines have already set the bar. CX will follow in turn. get used to it...get over it, worry about how you are going to improve the other issues that we are dealing with.

Max Reheat and Cumguzzler,

You two idiots make Inspector Clouseau look like a genius with your deductive skills! :D FYI I joined early '95 so take a wild guess what rank I'll be! So please enlighten me exactly how a Captain is supposed to write.

Shame no LEP's have put their hand up for nomination. Apperently there are 365 amongst the pilot body, yet no representation in the AOA.

Thanks NC
 

Well put NC thanks.
Retirement age at CX has never been about AGE it's about MONEY.

Dragon69,
TDK says it all really. The abuse should stop.
However; since you ask... any officer worthy of his rank would not call a colleague a Moron for merely having a different opinion. I guess an apology to ATY is out of the question, eh?

How about a new "Real" Unified Pay Scale.
Increase B scale by at least 10%, A scalers can go to 65 as long as they sign up on new pay scale. Any A scaler not wanting new scale can stay on A scale but retire at 55.
Manage the introduction (somehow) to minimise delays to command up-grades to junior pilots.
But we are getting off the thread....back to the nominees...
By the way, just on CNN, United to cut number of a/c by 100!!! Mostly 73s, and job cuts!!! We need to strong Union more now than ever!!!!

Again, can we please keep to the topic of discussing the manifesto's of those that have nominated for the GC. This topic is too important for it to descend into the A vs B vs Z scale bitch slapping at dawn. If you want to winge then go down the Gay bar and do it but stop hijacking this thread.

Just like any other smart and handsome man, I love a good A-scale bashing...those dirty bastards wanting to hang onto CX's devil money..shameful.

However, I dont really understand why they are to blame? They "let" B-scale happen? What were they to do?

B-scale let C-scale happen. C-scale will let D-scale happen, etc.

Everyone let the one-off, completely separate, never to be integrated with CX seniority, ASL scab bastards back on the the list, termination of the FACA, DEC's, DEFOs on bases, the list goes on.

Point is there is a lot of blame to go around. Everyone should look at what happened on their watch and realistically think of what they could have done.

Answer is, nothing. Why? Cause we have a crap AOA representing us. They have been the common failure point in all of the degradation of conditions we have experienced.

So I would nominate any of those Brits, with there notoriously small hands and commensurate testicular orbital diameters, to the GC. That way, it wont hurt as much when they inevitably bend us over at the company's behest.

Give yourself a 1-3% raise and get out of the dysfunctional AOA.

:yuk:

"Crap AOA Representing Us"
 

With statements like the above, there is little doubt why our contracts keep going backwards.

Let's remember, that the AOA is only as strong as the people that it represents. If it only represents a fraction of the pilot body, what can you expect. Moreover, if they approch the issues like many do on these forums, there is little wonder it has little credibility. If the pilot body was truly interested in a strong union, we would be voting from a field of at least a half dozen potential presidents. Not giving the job to someone by acclamation.

Reading the drivel on these posts, one has to wonder why anyone would join in the first place. Everyone is blaming everyone else for their problems. Looking at the events of the past, I saw many of the most outspoken individuals turn and run when the chips were down.

The sad reality is until people stop taking our jobs at lesser pay and benefits, your, mine and everyone elses pay will not rise. It is the simple law of economics. What part do you not understand?

And to many of you useless mouthpieces, before you slander the A scale pilots, tell me what you have contributed to help solve the problems at hand.

My guess, probably nothing!!!!!

WHY NO LEPs?
 

They fell for PC's line about a Local Pilot Forum being in their best interests - a classic union busting tactic. And what has their reward been? Sweet FA.

Yes LEP's are discriminated against but until they join in with the rest of the pilot body they won't get anything except more bitter.

Just because they haven't stood for GC in no way indicates they fell for PS's line. Exactly the opposite for most of them.:ok:

I can't believe where this thread has gone. No wonder the AOA is what it is today.

I am quite surprised not all nominees, including current commitee members standing for re-election, have not posted their manifestos yet. I thought there was hope - Guess Not! Everyone is to busy bashing/complaining here on PPRuNe and in the cockpits to come up with anything constructive, much less act in a such a way. The company must be laughing their socks off. The Irony of "The Management" is becoming truer by the day.

LR

Manifestos
 

I don't know about manifestos, but if you log onto the HKAOA website you'll find most candidates have a one or two page write up about them.

MACH.88

MACH.88
A few people think the world revolves around them on this forum:}

Back to the topic.....

I just submitted my vote.... Have you?????

I voted for 14 out of the 22 nominated. Please take the 30 seconds it takes to vote and Vote. There is no excuse other then laziness not to vote.

I am choosing to remain optimistic that we will elect a GC that will listen to the members and effect some change! I realise that there are others out there that believe it is a lost cause, but please vote anyway.

BusyB Is leaving the GC finally and NW I hope you are right and there will be a representative GC for once.

When do the results get published?