My point is that I find the attitude of our A-scale colleagues rather selfish. After 18 plus years in Cx on A scale salaries, relatively short time to commands, I must now suddenly sympathize with them that they cannot be extended by a further 10 years - give me a break. Do they feel sympathy for delayed F/O's and S/O's trying to support a family in Hong Kong at reduced salaries while there children have already left home. Do they feel sympathy at S/O's and F/O's have there upgrades even further delayed - not for one minute. Do they feel sympathy for S/O's being upgraded out of seniority and the rest of us looking at a further 1-2 years, perhaps longer.

I find them arrogant because they have the audacity to mention on the flight deck that they have, after not being interested through out their career, decided to get into training just to extend. And don't mention the one about more C&T's will speed things up - even the old guy's have stopped playing that tired record. There CoS was always RA55 so what's the big surprise ??

Kitsund where are you based - England, of course should have guessed. Nice use of language but I won't be lowering myself to your level old chap.

Extension Post 55
 

At least 10 of the extendees are B scale. Are you slating them as well or just whinging at A-scalers?:confused:

Rav Gimmie a break!
there wouldnt be a B scale unless you joined?
"there wouldnt be a B scale unless you let it happen in the first place!
But it didnt really affect you at the time did it!
CMS hit the nail on the head!

Extension Post 55
 

Ganker: "The A Scalers let the B scale happen"

Oh really? And who let ASL happen? Or C Scales? Direct Entry F/O? Or COS 08? Did you or CMS stop them?

We can play this game all day. My point to CMS was, and I'll repeat it for you, that we are all in this together; that working beyond 55 will help us all; and, that we all live in glass houses, so we shouldn't be throwing stones at each other.

I agree with raven, although i am no A scale sympathiser, however as he mentions we all have to take some level of responsibility for the imposed C,D etc scales that have come to fruition in recent years.
Time to stop pointing fingers at ourselves, we have one common enemy, lets not forget that. We should only bring in RA55 with consent from the pilot body. If it is voted down then move on, if the package looks good then vote it up and move on. The point here is chaps, we should all be allowed to make an informed choice and the company should have to comply with it....until they make it more palatable!!
The company gets away with what they do because we are not acting as a solid unit, we have more cracks than a 5 day test pitch, and yet again we prove it here on pprune.

Time for a little history lesson, so sit back dearly beloved, and I will begin....
For all the vituperation against A scalers, it is a little remembered fact that the only reason that A scales came to be the envy of the aviation world was because the then pilots and flight engineers stuck together and threatened strike action. When Fern, Tucknott, Morris, Gilroy and Horsting were at top of the AOA the company stood up and took notice! A vote was held at the old Mariners Club over numerous grievances, and the majority result was a mandate for industrial action. Each Captain on the day the action was to start was handed a brown envelope with the instructions from the AOA committee inside, telling him how to carry out his part of the industrial action. Note that I said Captain, in those days it was accepted that ONLY the Captain could shoulder the responsibilty to carry out industrial action, and thus bear the consequences if the Company turned nasty. The result? The DFO marched into the Mariners Club and....capitulated.
The result was the increasing increment A scale payscale and the housing/medical/travel benefits that went with it. Solidarity and an acceptance of the AOA position even by those that voted against the motion made the management back down. It's worth remembering that the company was full of young guys and their families straight out of the various air forces, and Hong Kong was nowhere near the easy place to live it is now.....
So given all this, (easily readable in the HKAOA records if you don't believe that aircrew can act in their own common interest), having stood up to management in far more trying circumstances, why should A scalers reduce the conditions they won for guys who cower when 49 of th0eir colleagues are sacked for' no apparent reason? Or for some bograt just turned up who hasn't got the balls to stand up for himself when his conditions of service change for the worse? :=:=:=

(It is also worth noting a further example of solidarity amongst crew at the time, when a bunch of Captains paid for a fellow pilots mortgage when interest rates had shot so high his pay was less than his mortgage payment........)

Kistune

“Strike”, I think 90% of the pilots just wet themselves.:{:(

Are they the same guys who flew all the aircraft in 99 when everyone else was stressed? :ok: I guess they must have been F/O’s at the time you talk about.:sad:

Not many True Captains around these days.:*

Still see many Captains using discretion and working G days. They can do their own industrial action by showing no good will but I assume they are all happy with their conditions or more likely do it out of fear.:{

What was in the brown envelope? Where did you pick this envelope up? Where can I get one?:ok:

history lesson part 2
 

Well written Kitsune.

Ahh....The good old days; most of the pilots living in the Sai Kung area, all meeting and drinking in the Cathay Club or the Aviaition Club, everyone knew each other. Only 4 or 500 crew.

Also, CX was expanding and had to hire us mercenaries and pay more than top dollar to get us out to this place in the Really Far East. So, as you say, we were the envy of the aviation world.

So look at the history from there - the following is not quite in chrono order but not too far off the mark.

Then things start to change. Long haul meant that the world could get here, and we could get there, non-stop. No longer was HKG the 'hardship posting' that it was and the bean counters realised it.

Cost controls came in, the usual high pay rises crept down until they stopped all together. Mr Nice Guy Sutch was behind it but Mr Eddington got the blame. Then the B scales came in and one of the names you mentioned atually proposed a solution of not letting them join the AOA A scale club so they would feel isolated and leave!! Evict the AOA to stop members going to the office.

And of course Basings. Start to scatter the troops around the world so they couldn't get together and plan resistance.

Airlines around the world got together to plan how to break the pilot unions power.

The way here was to split up the various interest groups and get them to argue with each other - worked so well we are still doing it.

Gilvarry was sacked - sorry, resigned (he didn't want to). Fern and Horsting end up in management, Morris too I think.

Poor old Tucknott left all on his own.

Pilots b@lls shrunk, Thatcher like mentality of look after yourself and take all you can was the motto of the crews now. Pilots frightened themselves into being fearful. The 49ers frightened them even more. But can CX sack all pilots? No they can't as they wouldn't be able to run their money making machine.

So what can we learn from history?

A lot if we apply some brain power. All for one and one for all used to be the motto. Get that back and we can stop this pathetic whining and start to do something about it.

So what's everyones' opinion of where we are NOW? :rolleyes:

You are finished.

Accept what we are willing to give and support your AOA so we can re-negotiate your contract.

Never question anyone in FOP management and accept their opinion.

Use your good will to complete the operation.

The sooner you accept this the sooner you will be happy.

To My Bonus

The Management

I've got x months to do before retiring on my A scale p fund, so you may insert your bonus in any convenient orifice matey.....:D:D:D

're-negotiate your contract'
 

The only reason FOPS has to re-negotiate anything is that they failed miserably to either carry out a process of due diligence relating to the Employment Laws of the UK that they purported to be obeying (sic) or hire someone (a Barrister?) to do it for them.

This was an embarrassing climbdown at the 11th hour caused purely by the AOA researching the problem properly when FOPS Management didn't. The Base goes onshore in just over a week for Heavens sake!!

Re-negotiate all you like, but unless you give them something substantial (and expensive) the AOA members will throw it back in your faces.

I suspect the reason that the two main protaganists in this farce have disappeared from sight is to reconsider their futures. (Special inclusion of the word THEIR to keep up Mr m's education - spelling properly may improve your CV - you're going to need it).:\

Yeah!!! They are going to throw it back in Cathay's face just like they did B-scale...oh, i mean ASL...uhhh, i mean sacking the 49ers...humm, rostering practices????? Anyone help, im out of ideas.

Something for nothing
 

It is not about A scale B scale.... It is about giving up more of my life to this company with no compensation.

The one thing I would like all our pilots nearing 55 to think about is this :

If we agree to extend with little or no compensation for junior crew, (below the rank of Captain) the end result is that over our careers to 65 we will not earn 10 years more pay. We will only earn 7 or so depending on how close to command you are now. Or if the retirement only goes to 60 (Only!) we will not get the equivalent of five more years pay either !!

So would any of you near retirement agree to give up three years pay to extend thereby making it fair for everybody ?

FG

Unfortunately it is all about who gets what.
The company isn't going to pay to extend A scale and provide renumeration to those affected by an increase in age 65 which conveniently will probably work out to be everyone who joined after Jan 01 2000.
Command is now minimum 12 years, the days of 8 or 9 years to command finished this month with ASL taking all pax commands from here on in for quite some time. Add on RA65 and it goes to 17 or 18, look at the market realistically with downturns as well and plenty will see 18-20 yrs to command at Cathay.
Do the numbers. Bloke A joined in 1990, Bloke B joined in 2000, both 30 yrs old at DOJ. Both with 1500 Boeing narrowbody time. Bloke A got command at 35, Bloke B at 49.

Both go to 65, on current conditions, one will retire with well under a third of what the other will retire with.
That's life, the union supports Bloke A over Bloke B. There are good times and bad times to be in Cathay and for anyone who joined as S/O in 2000 or later, hard luck.

Live with it.

This may explain why so many senior F/O's are going to Jetstar.

You nailed it !!!
 

StillA :

And that my friend is exactly why no pilot here below the rank of Captain will vote for an increase in retirement age !

We don't have to live with it...we can resist it...

They can force it on us but then at least we can use the courts.

Yeah I know but I am willing to wait...........til it freezes.......

FG

Five Green

So it is worth something then? Not 10 years, I admit, but 7 years towards the top of the pay scale is still something, isn't it?

Milly

iLuvpx rubbish
 

To iLuvpx I say this:-
You can harp on all you like about who did what to whom in the past but I dare suggest that when a contract comes to your house courtesy of DHL that you sign or be fired, you will think very carefully about your family and your future - and sign.

ASL and the '49ers are still haunting the bully-boys at CX (TT is a prime example) so it ain't over yet by a long way. Revenge is always sweet - it doesn't have to be quick.

As for now, the AOA (I'm still a member after all these years) will vote down RA65 unless CX comes up with some REAL compensation for junior ranks. If CX push through whatever they like - as in the past - then they will end up paying in court anyway. Their choice.

CX have manoeuvred themselves into a corner and they know they are in a weak position contractually. What does a coward do when cornered at a disadvantage?? Give in and slink off.
Watch this space and stop crowing about the past - about which you probably know only what you've heard.

Jagman, I agree with you about the DHL contracts disgrace, but there are unfortunately other precedents. The 'B' scale decision was purely decided on 'what's in it for me?' The choice was to continue with A scales with no pay rises or increase in conditions for those in the union at the time, or allow the company to introduce 'B' scales. I remember that no-one thought that anyone would take 'B' scales anyway........

The HKAOA, and in fact most airline unions, are really a Captains club, which is a result of the seniority systems we have endured over the years.

Captain's Club?
 

Hi Kits

My point really is that the AOA right now is anything but a Captain's Club. It's an FO/SO Club isn't it?
Hence my comment that CX had better compensate this group for a slowdown in advancement (perceived) or the negotiated 'package' will simply be rejected.
Basically, we have an AOA that represents the junior 50% of Cathay.

Just to throw in another variable here....

Assuming in the fullness of time that age 65 comes in and the by-pass pay is sorted out to everyones satisfaction:

Is everyone happy that the increments for Capts stop after 17yrs? No, seriously!! Why? After all, hopefully everyone will eventually get there, if they wish to stay on. This means (even when time to command increases), the vast majority will run out of increments before the age 65 limit. That means even longer on frozen pay scales at the top end of your "career" here. Is this acceptable?

Something else to be thrown in the negotiation pot?

Sheko.

Not sure "junior" or senior (for that matter) has any place in a democracy Jagman1....or are some more equal than others?
Also, given that we have Captains, f/o's AND s/o's the chances are pretty good that Captain's are a minority. One man, one vote.....for the good of the majority.....

Junior/Senior
 

Strato

Didn't mean any offence old chap! Just using generics but isn't the Captain more Senior than the FO? Maybe just older (normally). Anyway - you know what I meant. AOA represents the 'younger' element and if they pay their dues and there are more of them than the 'older' element - good on them!

Here's hoping the Company see sense and compensate adequately so that we can all get on with it. They'll have to look at increments too - maybe up to 30 - God forbid !:)

Compensating people only fixes part of the problem. There is also the grim reality of sitting in the right hand seat for the rest of your career. I'm sure some can hack it for a while but sooner or later most will get pi$$ed off with that.

It's a bit of a stretch to ask guys to remain enthusiastic and keen whilst flushing their careers down the S bend.

Surviving

19 Line checks
38 RT/PC's

before assessment

Bwaaaa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

P File
 

StillA :

Yeah no kidding can you imagine what your ERAS file would look like after 19 years in the right seat !!! Bound to meet up with one of the pedants along the way.

Oh and wanted to make another point it is only 15+ years to passenger command, if you want to work for FO wages then you can have a command in less than one year here !

FG

Money not Age
 

Retirement Age is not about age; it is about money. The Company has always had the ability to extend pilots on current conditions beyond NRA55. But they don't want to pay bypass, they don't want to pay A scale and they want to choose who stays. It's not about age it's about crewing the planes as cheaply as possible. It's about bigger bonuses. Money.

The Company is very happy with the compliant AOA leadership and they will be happy to use them to get NRA65 with reduced conditions with no bypass. The AOA are weak and easily manipulated and so the time is good. They will make hay while the sun shines because ST (rubber stamp) and his half-arsed 'negotiators' might be replaced this year. MG (49er sellout & RP04) & ST (C scales for new joiners) have been a gift from heaven for Management.

Simplex, past presidents have done very well thank you very much. Without them, we wouldn’t have resolved all the issues weighing us down since 2001.

They have done well serving a very pusillanimous pilot group.

You should be very proud of what they accomplished with what they are working with.

Yes it is all about money and we will not put money where is it not needed. We don’t have a problem retaining crew, so that group will not receive a payrise.

We have a problem with freighter captains, so the first number of years of freighter command received an increase. You get the picture, no need, no money.

Goodwill has a price but the pilot group is too stupid to realise this and most have been giving us goodwill free of charge for very long time. We compensate these individual in the form of EFP or GDO callout and most accept this form of payment. Again we thank those captains. Even without EFP pay, most feel the GDO compensation is more than adequate by the numbers accepting the GDO compensation.

The money we will save by reducing bypass pay and extending on B Scale pay and benefits will be extraordinary.

We will have very few pilots on the higher salary and benefits known as A scale. Most Captains are now on B scale and now the extenders will be on B scale, so you may even see another DHL letter sent to those pilots with another sign on the new B scale conditions or have your contract terminated. Again most will sign as they are too old to move onto other airlines and they have their money bucket somewhat full and will accept B Scale. We are in discussions now, so please standby.

The AOA survey is coming to a close very shortly and once again choose your answers wisely, especially the latter part of the questionnaire (thank you to the captain that supplied us with his user name and password). Some careers may depend on it and it may be yours.

Enjoy the Cathay Pacific Seven’s this weekend. Sitting in the Cathay Pacific Corporate Box and being served good food and drink makes me think I was a pilot but my package is much more. Now I know where some pilots get their superiority complex by having pretty girls serve them food and drink.

Thank you for My Bonus

The Management

Slagging A-scale
 

What is it with guys slagging A-scale? They fought long,hard and at great expense to try and preserve conditions of service for all. Do the B-scale guys honestly expect people with 15-20 years service to toss it away when most careers reward experience and hard work? Isn't it a better plan to raise conditions for all rather than focus on bringing people down...the company has been doing that for years.I can imagine the response if 'C' scalers were bitching about B-scale....you signed on the dotted line...suck it up!

>Isn't it a better plan to raise conditions for all rather than focus on bringing people down

What a novel idea.
However in the meantime, as the CX pilot group has morphed to be dumber than dog shxt.........
The Management: is it part of your strategy to hire the industrially clueless?
To your bonus.

Any pilot who works past 55 is stealing another's promotion
 

If you work past 55 you are taking someone else's promotion.

If by the time you reach 55 you are not ready ($) to retire then it is your own fault (or greed) so don't get someone else (junior) to pay for it. F**K OFF!!!!!

Cxlinedriver. What an intelligent, levelheaded analysis. How many years of education did it take to learn to write like that…profane and to the point?

As a well-seasoned debater with the teenaged mentality, allow me to return fire: Aren’t you putting the cart before the horse? I’d argue that someone with 17 years of “time-in” and seniority with this Company should have more of a say than someone with, I’m only guessing in your case, much less? You know…a proven commodity versus an unproven one…the way it is in every other major airline.

Greed? Not everyone joined Cathay in their twenties!

Working past 55 is a benefit every pilot can take advantage of. Some will, and some won’t. But even the most junior pilot would then benefit from bypass pay AND working past 55.

There's talk of the licence going to 70 in Europe, so watch this space!

Cxlinedriver rubbish
 

Why do you always assume that the only criteria for retiring is money? The world has moved on and retiring at age 55 is now outdated and old fashioned. Those of us older chaps who have given 20+ years of loyal service to CX (mostly in Command) deserve a little respect from upstarts like you. We don't wish to retire at 55. Legislation agrees with us - it is discriminatory to force us out because of our birthday. We're fighting already. You'll thank us when you're 54 - believe me.
Being ignorant and rude doesn't clarify your point - it just makes you look ignorant and rude.

Quite honestly Jagman I have flown with some 20+ year pilots and mostly in command at CX and I can tell you “straight from the heart” that I have flown with better COMMANDERS on smaller aircraft. The size of your metal does not define you. Just because you are a commander, you may be lucky enough to have seniority but that does not make you a good commander.

Some 747-400 commanders out of Europe can be atrocious. Yes they are Senior Check and Training and should be not in that position. They don’t know how to train.

Repect is something you earn, not from your position of seniority. I have much respect for many First Officers because I can see the command potential in them.

Respect is something you earn FROM YOUR subordinates not from your peers IMHO. I suppose it goes both ways. Most likely there are juniors that don’t like flying with me but still treat them with respect.

Treat people how we all want to be treated, we all know who is in command it’s the bloke with 4 strips but most likely that bloke is not smarter, he just has seniority. I guess seniority makes you the god of all gods I suppose.

In North America with 3 Australia blokes (with no dis-respect) in falling snow, the second officer was from North America. Needless to say I listened to the Second Officer as experience is “I been there before”. He was lower rank but he saved my Ass. I have respect for him and I told him so.

But maybe I’m new school. There is no I in TEAM. Everyone can contribute.

I’ve been a lower rank and a higher rank, it’s still a team.

Too many drinks for smilies today I'm afraid.:ok:

BlueBogey wrote:
Thats right, the A-scalers signed a contract to retire at 55, and received pay allowing for that. Now when it comes time to honor that, you all whine like spoiled primma donnas.

So take your own advice...you signed the dotted line, suck it up and retire like a man.

:ok:

Mr Bloggs
 

Couldn't agree more with you Bloggsy! Some STC's on all fleets seem to have charmed lives and shouldn't be there - especially some 747-400 in Europe (Who CAN we be thinking of?????). LMF from Senior Management allows them to continue for some reason.

Don't tar us all with the same brush and I'm pretty sure all those who fly with me wouldn't mind coming back. There is no 'I' in team??
Blyme - you'll be 'thinking out of the box' next!!!

Mr Bloggs......I don't think ripping into senior captains on a forums like this is helpful. Like you I have been here along time and most, if not all the captains I have flown with have been up to a high standard. Sure, the odd one has a personality that rubs people up the wrong way, but he is still a worthy captain.

Your story about how you listen to your second officer and your ass was saved brought tears of admiration..wow..you are one hellva modern day captain. And on the other side of the coin I have heard nothing but a load of crap from some of the crew..and I went on the advise of my 35yr expierence "gut" feeling.