Im based and the truth of the matter is once you see life back in your home domicile you realise all the crap that goes with the job in Hk is not really worth it!
You only live one life, perhaps spending it eating the fish curry for the millionth time across the pacific and complaining about it, isnt what you had in mind for a 30 yr+ career.
Only you can change it!
Money aint everything , especially when they start cutting it!
:)

Chinese Calculator
 

Im puzzled on how you guys figure the salary is better at EK. I have checked the site and converted to AUD and it seems CX is far better.(Currently)
Yes command is quicker in EK but i didnt factor in the salary for been an FO for at least 3yrs(at earliest). I can only assume you guys have done the calculation on 15yrs or so. Please enlighten me.
Having said that, I was very keen on the DEFO Oz Base but since thyey have introduced the pay cut in JAN 08, I have decided not to send my CV until conditions improve. Also another consideration is command possibly 13+yrs, although not confirmed but certainly food for thought.
Slightly off the topic, does anyone know if Korean offer upgrade and if so, how long can one expect to be in the right seat?:confused:

I heard if hired as FO at Korean...it is an FO contract. NO UPGRADE program at this time. Can anyone back this up?

Two SO's have resigned in the past couple of weeks, both less than 3 months in the company.

To go where? (the S/O's)

Another US freighter FO just quit after 1 year with CX. Going to AirTran of all places.

Air Tran?

HAHAHAAHAHAHAH

now that's a bad move.

Go right ahead,
you need to take 16% off CX due tax (if HKG based). You need to add in EK HDP which is worth much more than CX HDP. You need to take into account ERP which is 7.5% of salary at the moment. Its more the 'area under the curve' rather than comparing position for position. EG, a CN1 in CX earns more but by the time he gets that position the guy in EK is on his 10th increment which puts him ahead pre tax let alone post tax. Look for some posts I have put on this over the last couple of months. I can tell you that after 10 years you are over 30% better off in EK (after tax dollars). Command time in CX is likely to be 13-15 years unless they start seriously ordering a/c. Given current CX orders command will be closer to 15 years.

Why are you laughing?
 

I can't believe that anyone would think less of a person who would choose to go to AirTran. I'm certain that he was fed up with the anti-american attitude, lack of respect, and poor training. Things may change here over the long haul, but most people want to keep their dignity when they go to work. I'm certain the culture at AirTran is what this person would prefer. Who care what airframe a person flies, there is more to life than the weight of your aircraft.

Good luck to all those that seek to take another direction. For many, the expectation they came with did not materialize. aka...bait and switch.

Change? Nothing will change except for your CoS, mate!

As for AirTran, it's the next best thing to quitting aviation completely.

Not your Mate!
 

My Cos will stay the same, as I to plan to leave before I'm subject to another.

As to your arrogance about AirTran, or anyone else with whom you feel is beneath you, just another example of why we leave.

So you're going to AirTran, that's cool (for you). Don't get so uptight about it. Heck people even put down United these days. :rolleyes:

Gone Down,

One of the S/O's couldnt stand the pollution so just left.

MAX:cool:

Thanks for the reply MAX, interesting times indeed.

More Leaving...?
 

It's unconscionable to suggest that junior officers here at Cathay consider staying when they are faced with;

• possible significant increased time to command as a result of an increased retirement age,
• a paltry pay increase after six tears of no pay rise, and
• continuing opportunities elsewhere where demand has had an actual effect on remuneration.

I wonder how many junior officers arriving here at Cathay after January 2008 on new Conditions of Service, (read: lesser pay than the bloke that joined in December...), will not bother to look elsewhere for opportunities with their shiny new type-ratings.

It's a sad commentary, but it makes sense to leap earlier than later. The snowball that started rolling at Dragonair looks like picking up some more snow from Cathay on it's way down the hill.

What exactly is the diffence in pay between those joining in Dec vs. Jan?

MinimaNoContact
 

MinimaNoContact, and anyone else that is interested...

The Company will be paying New Joiners from January 2008 onwards, a unified pay scale under CoS08 that works like this:

The Company contends that the 'historical' recruiting streams have been as an SO or as a direct-entry Freighter FO. But they want to hire direct-entry Passenger FOs that are currently paid a higher salary. Naturally they don't want to have to pay for something they could possibly get away with not paying for...

So the cunning plan they have come up with is that they have produced an amalgamation, of sorts, of the SO and Freighter FO salaries, and applied this salary scale to all direct-entry FOs joining after January 2008!!

All direct-entry FOs joining the Company in future will be obligated to fly both the Freighter and Passenger aircraft in Cathay's inventory - something that is not necessarily the case today. (At present, freighter pilots fly freighter aircraft and passenger pilots fly passenger aircraft. Passenger pilots can be asked to fly freighter patterns but not forced to).

The rationale here is that the Company asserts that new joining pilots would naturally like to fly Passenger aircraft, and tossing the Freighter into the mix would allow for a greater variety of flying for the lucky individual.

However, the New Joiner will be flying both Freighter and Passenger aircraft for less than what aircrew with an identical rank flying Passenger aircraft are paid today. A minor and irrelevant point, the Company would say...

New Joiners have joined the Company as direct-entry Passenger pilots in the past - there is a historical precedent for this, but it is one which the Company and the AOA appear to be ignoring.

I contend that if the Company want Passenger fleet aircrew, (under the system that they themselves set up many years ago when they split the Freighter from the Passenger fleet to save them money), then they should pay Passenger fleet pay. If the Company wish to once again amalgamate the Passenger and Freighter fleets, then they should do so at the highest common denominator, not the least.

Simple.

The Company obviously see differently, (they don't want to pay more than they absolutely have to for their labour), and for some unknown reason, the AOA leadership, completely neglecting to represent their future colleagues on this issue, have acquiesced to this arrangement.

As for specific comparisons between pay scales, perhaps Numero Crunchero could do what he does best...

Rate for the Job
 

COS 08 Offers a London based DEFO less money than I recieved to do that job as a B scale DEFO on joining on the base in the mid 90ies. My starting pay represented a considerable pay rise over my military salary, and I was happy to take the job. COS 08 would today be a significant pay cut. Looking around I dont see life getting cheaper. A point to bear in mind for any new applicants.

Onced off
 

Congrats to the DPA. May I say we should watch and learn. Excellent, everyone in KA now has a better package than CX. The mouse that roared vs the lion that wimpered. Maybe the GC should talk some more.

Pprune Banners...
 

I don't know how many of you have noticed the Pprune banners that advertise on this site - it is a little ironic that they state 'Vietnam Airlines Payrise' and 'Korean Air Payrise' in order to attract aircrew, and here we are at Cathay contemplating an imposed payrise that doesn't even compensate for the last year's CPI increase, let alone the previous 6 years!

And to rub salt in the wound, we 'got' it for acquiescing to the hiring of direct-entry Passenger FOs on lesser CoS, and allowing the Company unfettered retirement age increase to 65 years.

I'm sure it sounds like a really fair deal to the Company...

No wonder junior guys are looking a little closer at those banners!

Is there any difference in pay for DESO new joiners Dec Vs. Jan? HK base?

As far as I am aware SO pay is the same - however you will not have a little thing called BYPASS PAY in your contract.......which I have a little suspicion will become a BIG issue soon...

What is Bypass pay?
Also, what is AOA?

Sorry - I'm obviously a little new to the Fragrant Harbour section.

Thanks!

No need to quote the figures as someone else has...bottom line is that an Aussie joining in Dec07 will earn over $100K more than one joining in Jan08 over the first few years.

For an SO joining in HKG your pay is the same(3% increase in Jan). Some things for a potential SO joiner to consider.

RA65 will add 3-5 years to command time....and obviously also delay the need to have you upgraded to FO. 3man crewing, which we will have Jan09, will give CX a sudden surplus of FOs - maybe 200-300. So again, even less need to upgrade SOs.

Bypass pay is paid to SOs who are 'assessed' if there are DEFOs junior to them and/or pilots extended past RA55. The latter reason only applies to pilots who join prior to 1/1/08.

Five years from now we are likely to have up to 300 'extended' captains. That means up to 300 HKG based FOs, on CoS99, will get bypass pay. The only SOs who will get it are those assessed...which apparently happens just a few months before upgrade.

So if you aren't in CX now don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you! If you are based a year from now, don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you....CX likes to keep things simple!

An SO currently in line training said that three (3) of the SOs who joined with him, or right around him, have already resigned. To where, he didn't know.

The numbers
 

Apparently some of you do want the exact numbers. The following does NOT include PF or HDP. Add 15.5% of base figure for PF and 5%ish for HDP. UFO = 2008 salary for joiners 1/1/08 onwards.

Aus
CoS99 $122,352
UFO $92,664


UK(EUR)
CoS 99 £59,484
UFO £45,036

US
CoS99 $103,440
UFO $73,440

Note, in the US CX has been recruiting on the freighter fleet in the past. The salary for that is $65,412(2008). There will be no more freighter recruitment in future.

What about the supposed direct recruitment to 777 FO, both in JFK and in YYZ?

oops
 

I missed the canadian pay - sincere apologies to my polite brethren;-)

CoS99 $114,180
UFO $86,472

So to answer your question...JFK $73,440 USD, YYZ $86,472 loonies.

NC, sorry for the misunderstanding, but thanks for the info...

My question was, "On what basis is CX recruiting DEFOs into YYZ and JFK when there are current CX pilots wanting (and who have not been offered) those positions?"

Seems this little abrogation of our contract isn't getting much attention!

Oval3holer
 

Thats a good question! The bases should be offered in seniority. How they get around it most of the time is saying 'sorry, you are on bus/400 and all the 2008+2009 jokers have already been allocated so no conversion for you'. If you are not on type then you are ineligible for the basing.

True, but there are numerous 777 FOs who want a 777 FO slot in YYZ or JFK. How CX can hire DEFOs into these slots when current CX 777 FOs want them is beyond me... and the AOA is doing nothing about it!

Have you figured it out yet? We do what we want, when we want. We have our own interpretation of the rules and contracts.

Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.

If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.

We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.

You see, we are untouchable!

To my bonus.

The Management

Looks like it's time for another RECRUITMENT BAN...We all remember how effective the last one was!!

:}:}:}:}

QF Profit Forecast Increase
 

Qantas have just announced another increase in it's forecast profit for the year by a further 10%. It will be a bumper year for QF, and by extension, it should also be a bumper year for fellow OneWorld partner Cathay. Watch for further profit forecasts from Cathay.

Despite this happy state of affairs and disregarding the tight market worldwide for pilots, Cathay still seek to recruit New Joiner aircrew from 2008 onwards on less pay than that offered to their ccounterparts for the same job in 2007. Unbelievable but true.

Maybe this thread should be changed from 'How many are leaving CX?' to 'How many are actually joining CX?'

And perhaps a related thread could be 'How many are joining CX and then leaving once they realise that the grass this side of the fence is a little parched?' I know of at least one guy who was almost checked out to line after taking a direct-entry FO slot based in SYD. He decided he'd take a Qantas SO slot in preference. Bear in mind that this individual was recruited on the 2007 deal, not the inferior deal that New Joiners will be presented with in 2008. How much did that cost the Company in wasted training? How does the Company expect to recruit pilots on less pay than this guy kissed off?

In times gone by, the Company used to publicise the names of those retiring or leaving the Company, but for some years now it has failed to do so. Forums such as this are the only avenue open to publication of those who have left.

In my opinion, once the pendulum has swung through a certain arc, it may be impossible to stop the momentum. Measures that the Company may take in future to arrest the outflow may be too late in coming.

Some believe that even the payrise given to our Dragon colleagues will not stem the flow now that the levee has been breached - there are many other fundamental issues yet to be addressed.

Will the same happen at Cathay?

Hey guys I've been looking around this website for some time and I've been noticing that many of you are talking about leaving cathay. I've been thinking of applying, can any of you give me some insight as to how things are over there.

Well, a guy that came from EUR and joined as an SO 8months ago is leaving next month. He said that he really enjoys HKG(he is single) but RA65, less basing opportunities, DEFOs and resultant delay in upgrades to both window seats made him reconsider. So he is going back to his old job. As he said, its not perfect there but its better than CX and he won't look over the fence again wondering if that grass is greener or just 'made in china' astroturf;-)

Cathay acts like a career airline and pays like a post 9-11 legacy carrier. Issues that my american amigos mention to me frequently;
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical

Over a decade ago CX had a reputation for being a career airline that had fast commands and good pay. Back then you never heard of anyone leaving CX as everyone left other airlines to come here. I have never seen so many people leave and I have never seen morale so low. If you are seriously considering CX talk to some of your peers to get a good idea of how things are now.
merry xmas

You are so right
 

NC

Right as usual.

The only reasons people ever left in the past, were something to do with personal circumstance - families/health etc. Back then CX was a proper career airline, like United, or Qantas or BA. People didn't leave. Almost unheard of.

They do now. Ground school the other day; one person missing; turned out he had resigned. That's when the penny dropped for me.:eek:

They are short of FOs, of that, there is no doubt. People at last are voting with their feet - either not walking to the interview or walking back out the door almost as soon as they arrive. Even FOs with significant seniority are leaving.

The rest of us are shackled by seniority. The market will not look after us so quickly. If we want things to change, we need to look after ourselves.

Park or Pay

Milly

I know of a junior WJ pilot that just turned down an SO course for Dec.

They would rather be at a happy LCC than a unhappy major with decreasing conditions and poor relations.

Can you blame them?

CX...wake up before it's too late!:*

More Leaving and Look Who's Joining...
 

Leaving
Just heard of a guy who has had two years in the Company and in the pipeline for a Jetstar job. He'll be out of here as soon as he gets the nod.

It is easier for junior guys to leave the Company with all the opportunities out there and with less time invested in the seniority system.

I am wondering how many of those who were originally scheduled to join Cathay as DEFO's on a base in December 2007, that have now had their joining date shifted into 2008 due to 'changes to training schedules', will feel inclined to stay once they realise that they will be joining the Company under CoS08, (ie. on substantially less money than originally thought under the CoS99 salary scales).

Perhaps it will be worth a couple of months stay in the Headland to get the type-rating before shooting through to sunnier, more rewarding, and less polluted climes. The Company must be allowing for some attrition here.

Joining
I also just heard, (probably old news to some of you...), that some of the latest to join the Cathay, are a group of Dragon Cadet SOs who cannot be accommodated for training at our sister airline!

Training
Perhaps this is the reason that the Cathay Airbus Fleet Office are advertising for more check and trainers - as opposed to the official line put out there that they have received authorisation to employ more training staff to 'spread the load around'...! I doubt if the check and training roster will get any better, but the workload in having to train our sister airline's almost ab-initio trainees will certainly increase.

It has to be stated at this time, that a B-Scale CN taking a training position will be on approximately 13% less pay than a comparable A-Scale line CN is at present.

Should the B-Scaler reach the dizzy heights of a check position, then they would still be on less money than a line A-Scale CN, despite being endowed with the additional responsibility of checking that same individual!

(This comparison takes only the basic remuneration into account, and not the provident fund, travel fund, better retirement travel benefits, medical benefits, dental benefits, or share options that form other trimmings A-Scalers are or have been entitled to. NC, feel free to leap right in here.)

One could fail to see the relative attraction of the training job for a B-Scaler if one were to take the position purely for monetary reward.

Why would anyone ever want to become a trainer at CX????

Hom many years is it now that they were going to fix the training package...never going to happen!!!!

They lie lie lie.