Actually there were some very good pilot negotiators but they were fired in 2001 and then dumped by most of the CX pilots in the AOA. Those pilots are now left with the inept to represent them; a sort of natural justice really.

Hey Pedro,

tell me all the unions or associations where the Gen Sec is paid a % of the income as opposed to a negotiated package.:}

Negotiation CX style
 

Pedro330,
I am interested to know how you come to the conclusion that good negotiators were fired in 2001? Are you implying the bad ones kept their jobs? So Nigel D, Don F, Ross L were hopeless - John W, Steve B, Brad H and Drew S were good negotiators then!?

I guess it comes down to what is a good negotiator? Is it someone who gets the best deal achievable, or one that has negotiations break down and have conditions imposed? Using that definition I can assure you that ST definitely is a good negotiator as he achieved the best deal POSSIBLE from CX right now. Nigel and JW had talks break down - so not so good, huh?

Godfather,
there have been three monetary negotiations in the last 10 years - 1999, 2001 and 2007. In all three I can assure you that the end result, whether imposed or agreed, was no where near the AOA starting position. I think many pilots have the assumption that there is much too-ing an fro-ing in CX negotiations. From my experience I can assure you that is not the case. Lee Iacocca, Henry Kissinger and Menachen Began could have been in the room for all the difference it would have made. When you have many 'not negotiable' issues, what do you do?

Negotiation is about give and take of what you WANT or NEED. Someone please tell me why the company should give us one cent? We are all still here - people are still joining - there is no industrial action etc. So if you were CX, would you give a payrise? We all WANT a payrise - where is their NEED?

So if it makes you sleep better at night assuming the negotiators are incompetent then so be it. But if you are so smart please step up and join the GC and get on the next negotiating team so we can finally get those 50% payrises we all know we deserve!

I would hope that in employing someone to represent my interests to the company and negotiate my personal pay and allowances, that he was paid more than a B scale FO!

If you want a monkey to represent your interests, then go and pay peanuts! I suspect that some posters here don't even have an independent representative. Penny wise and pound foolish?

In the meantime the intelligentsia will employ professionals. Go figure!

tfa456

Don’t assume for one minute that I am on the GC. I’m not. You though like typical AOA bashers are a brand new handle. Why is that? How many handles do you have on Pprune? If you want a lesson in accounting standards and practices I will be more than pleased to enlighten you. Those that know me know that I am more than qualified to give advice in this field if required. I suspect though you won’t as you are obviously a troll who has it in for the GS and everything else that is to do with the AOA.
Why don’t you ask them? Again I doubt you will but if you did I think you would eat humble pie.:yuk:

Pedro330
Oh for God’s sake are you that stupid to actually believe that crap? A person’s salary is based on market forces not by turnover. If we extrapolate your train of thought further, just because CX has 1/3 the turnover of BA should we only get paid 1/3 of a BA pilot. Get real. You’re showing yourself up as a right royal idiot.:mad::yuk:

Hey Pedro,

Why no answer to my question if you're so correct?

"not a credidle argument ... it just makes you look stupid."

No comment:}

Its always been an Association as Balpa is.:confused:

If a payrise will only result from a flood of people leaving CX, then we have no hope. Given the way the airline industry and seniority is built, for the most part, the only people that will go are those who BOTH really can't stand it here (most of us!) AND those who can afford ($$) to go (not many of us). Who can afford to go.....generally either those who are in their first couple years and hence won't be taking a huge paycut to go somewhere else or those who are so well set up financially that they can handle starting at the bottom somewhere else. Its not like we all have the ability to walk to show our disgust at how we are treated and or paid.

What happened to rewarding employees for hard work, recognising record profits can and should result in better pay for your job (don't start me on the joke that is profit share), and also acknowledging that over the years, the cost of living does increase. Sure, reviewing what other airlines pay is part of the process, but if this the only element of a pay discussion then lets wave the white flag.

FYI
 

Emirates have no union...they have achieved 40%plus payrises over the last 5 years. Their biggest payrise was due to a 5% departure rate last year which resulted in a 17%(in total) salary increase this year.

So put yourself in NPR's shoes going to the board. How can you ask for more money for pilots? Why does anything need to be changed? We have had no payrises for 6 years and we have how many thousands of applicants? Whats our departure rate?

No I don't go into negotiations cynically but unfortunately thats how I come out of them. We show them how much everyone else earns, how many payrises everyone else got and then we are told what payrise CX has budgeted for. Do you give your maid 10-50% payrises due to exchange rate fluctuations or as a reward for loyalty or longevity?

If your maid stopped cleaning or looking after your children you might pay more...only if you couldn't get another maid for the same price. Just because we fly planes doesn't mean we are any more than hired help.

If you want a payrise then we(as an AOA) need to do more than just whinge and say we deserve more. Our last payrise was associated with contract compliance...we have been cooperative ever since then and enjoyed 0% payrises in that time.

So as the americans say, sh#t or get off the pot!

NC , I can’t believe you said contract compliance. You now have 90% of the pilots running for cover, but I guess they still want a pay rise.:ok:

why would anyone be running for cover ??? (apart from CX management??)

the one lesson from the 49'ers is that it cost Cathay big $$$$$.................Onshore basings, back tax etc etc......................

for sure if CX could go back in time they would not fire anyone and they surely are not dumb enough to repeat what has to be one of the most expensive F#@k Ups in the companies history........................


so, why not contract compliance ???

The only way we can get cx to change is if we stop the people from coming. We need to spread the news to the various source of employment that :
If you join now you will be stuck in HKG for your whole career, with no chance of any base.
You will have to work to 65 in order to retire.
The HKD is depreciating making your take home pay smaller all of the time.
You will only get inflation or no increase
It will take 10+ to command
The rosters are getting tighter therefore forget about commuting .

If the new joiner realize the truth about working her they might stop or leave.

That is the only way they will fix something. The AOA should take out adverts in Flight, pprune etc stating the truth.

Froggyman..you sad Barsteward...............why do people like you always want someone else to do your fighting for you.........???? they tried all that before remember ?? asl/recruitment bans..............total crock of !!!!e, no one is going to not join cx to support you.....................get real, if you want to get somewhere, stand up and be counted..............Join the AoA and all stand together................................

Because no one will exercise contract compliance………………………. similar to MSS. If they wanted a pay rise the pilots should have been in contract compliance long before negotiations but I guess the pilots are not that smart. Now all those negotiated deals in the hope of a pay rise are all for not. Now I know why you have free reserves and lost the 5-4-3 rule. Most Pilots are idiots; they can never figure it out. How many times do you have to get screwed before you figure it out? You are pathetic.

And the most important reason, the pilot group is scared. They get others to do their dirty work because most are spineless to do it themselves

We will not terminate ones contract for no reason next time but we will terminate contracts if need be and most know this. Very simple to find a reason, not that it matters, our Judges will not care if you go to court. The AOA will not take us to court and individuals will not have the funds. No one will want to or think of putting their head above the parapet.

We have now taken the deal off the table and you don’t have a pay rise, mindless. Don’t see negotiations in the near future, we are actually saving money. Don’t see many running out the door; our freighters are still operating with the help of Hong Kong based and overseas based pilots, thank you very much. You are actually saving us money by not giving it to your freight colleagues. The freighter ops runs somewhat late at times but our freighter pilots do a great job of using discretion when the flights are delayed and acknowledging all those short notice roster changes. Sorry, maybe next year for a pay rise freight dogs.

As for our HK based freighter pilots; well when we go onshore the tax implications in those jurisdictions may be unbearable for some pilots. With the low HK tax system, we can afford to set a lower COS and still have those on bases join the new C Scale as some have put it. But this will not affect you. This will be most beneficial to The Cathay Pacific Group because we save money due to the HK dollar but the pilot wins because they are based in a low tax jurisdiction. Pilots just can’t help themselves, they are inherently selfish.

Your contract compliance days are over before they even started because you are all spineless.

The Management

Size matters...matter of fact I am in the AOA and did not quit like some of our friends just because they had to put up some money, so where should I be counted mate...next time think before you speak...

Pedro330

It’s pretty typical for someone with no substance to their argument to attack the individual rather than debate the topic. If you want to be taken seriously show me one company that pays its employees based on turnover. It is a fact that the GS is actually paid less than the market rate for the job he does. Maybe you are prepared to do it for nothing? Remember it is a fulltime job so you will have to give up your paying day job. Seriously though if you have a workable idea as to how we could do it differently I and many others would be interested in hearing it.

BRAVO The Management .......:D:D:D.............

NC
 

How was QF "forced" into giving QF shorthaul a payrise recently? While things certainly aren't all hunky dory there, they don't have hoards of pilots leaving do they? They didn't compare what their pilot's curently were being paid compared to others in that market and go.....whoah! these guys deserve a payrise! What was the trigger for management there to agree to a payrise?