2/3/4, yes please.......... 20%..... Bring it on!!!!
Trouble is with a pilot turnover of 1 (ONE) percent I recently heard (and let's face it, we're all GONNA leave but no one actually packs the stuff and runs..) there is not a great case to argue.....
Biggest BIGGEST concern I find is that SH1TE rostering.... It is PATHETIC..... Strange thing that the sickness is soooooo highhhhhhhhh....
Enjoy your day, my view today is HZ, just like the other 300 days of the year....
ta ta

PS. I do think that with the way the UK market is going, the freighter has a better position to get what we ALL should get.... Only trouble is that the UK tax man is coming after all now isn't it?? Whether UK resident or not??

Anyone from MAN care to publish an example roster?
I'm hoping for an interview (MAN F/O) but beginning to have a few concerns now......
Currently I'm a (poorly paid) UK regional so I would have thought the change to KA still worthwhile?

Stay at home and go to pub, makes you feel better!!

During the interview they will tell you how great KA is blablablabla.
ask about the UK Payee fiasco, or what they are going to do about it!
answer: not our problem, tax is your problem!
They will tell you more then their own employees, we have not heard anything!!

You want a MAN roster on here,
do not bother YOU WILL NOT FLY WHAT IS ON IT ANYWAY!!! due to crew sickness or disturbance <-rosterings favourite for a long time

my personal best 12 days away 1 operating sector and positioned from DXB to HKG and back to DXB for nothing, but hee, it shows I was on duty:uhoh:
this is not an isolated case, normal to be away for 10 days and do 4 sectors and the boss want more productivity:confused:

a few points:
-morale at lowest point ever on all fleets, money is not going to solve it anymore. the lifestyles we had are long gone!!!
-KA is basically imploding day by day and nobody in office seems to care or notice.
-you join now say 5-8 years for command, in that time CX takes over, KA below CX, you still in RHS another 8-10 in CX.
- lots of senior cadets ahead of you who are reaching the 5000 hours for command in the coming years

Many moons ago KA was a good place, but not anymore!!

1 positive thing:
The crews on the freighter are a great bunch of guys and now 1 girl to operate airplanes with, the nights out are usually nights to remember!!! if you can,that is:O


good luck in the interview!!! enjoy the drinks

start 4123

U.K Payee Fiasco
 

Is anbody able to elaborate a little more on the KA- U.K / Hong Kong taxation situation please.:confused:

Basically,

From Oct 2007 KA will make all their MAN based crew known to the UK taxman. even the non residents:uhoh:
which means everybody will have to pay UK tax on top of HK tax.
even if you can claim it back. first you have to pay it, which for some guys will get them into serious liqidity? problems.

like start4123 stated, we do not get a lot of info, we are talking to accountants our selves to see what we can do!!

521

Tax and more tax
 

Although the IFALPA ban has been lifted it is still not a good time to join Dragonair given the current tax fiasco. Not only will you have to pay UK and HK tax you will also have to pay HK tax in advance! You will take home about 40% of your pay until it is sorted out!
Many of us are waiting to see how management handle this before we decide to move on or not. Any slight semblence of good times has come to an end at Dragonair.
No pay rise for 6yrs and probably 5yrs plus to command for MAN base and even longer for HKG. Be wary of their interview promises.

The exodus has started
 

One HKG Captain has just resigned. I understand 2 more waiting on acceptance by EK, though this is rumor.

Dragon521,
Can you just clarify this for me then please - even if I am a UK resident I will pay UK tax AND HK tax??? Or is it the other way round - i.e. the UK based guys pay UK tax, but the unfortunate HK based chaps pay both?

If UK resident you pay:

-2 years HKG tax, 1 year in advance 1 time only
-1 year UK tax, UK tax man will deduct part paid in HKG.

Non resident:

- 2 years HKG tax, 1 year in advance 1 time
- rest in country of residence, could be nothing depending on tax treaties.

WARNING: this is NOW, in October 07 all is/could be changing

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:
So, despite having never set foot in Hong Kong, I would still get to pay the HK govt 2 years tax, a year of which is upfront!!!!!

correct,

the reason being, you work for a HKG company. so you will pay tax in HKG.
strange thing is you will not get a HKG id card because you are MAN based, so no access to cheap tax loans in HKG.

521

To put it simply, it seems that commands are always 1 more year. Have been here for a while, with a command course getting close. BUT.... if you join KA now looking for a quick command, you will be bitterly disappointed, it will take at least 5 years for the Airbus.

The guys on this thread are just telling you how it is. The rosters are CRAP, and not worth the paper there written on. With the current exchange rate, we have all had a 30% pay cut in the last 3 years.

So forget about how good the pay is, especially if you have a morgage in your home country. With the cost of living in HK, the increase in rents, and the constant snipes and niggles at what was a great conditions of service, you will struggle as an F/O if you have a wife and family.

SO:
At Dragonair you will have NO lifestyle, NO prospects, and NO cash....

Sounds obvious to me. Teach this idiotic management (and i use the term management very loosely) a bloody lesson. Wait until we can improve the package and also get a rostering agreement, then join in droves... all welcome.

:mad:

Re HK/UK TAX.

Just a clarifiction on the HK tax issue. In HK you pay 70% provisional tax for the upcoming tax year, based on your last years income. So depending on when you join, and when the tax dept get you on their books, you may not pay tax for 2 yrs or so. You will however then pay arrears on yr 1 and 2, plus 70% of yr 3. I know of 1 HK based FO that got a tax demand for $380,000 after 2.5 yrs.

A further point is that in order to fall inside the tax net you need to spend more than 60 days in any tax year in HK. Almost all KA crews meet the 60 day requirement. And with the cahnge in the operation where more regional flights are planned, those that escaped the net in the past will not escape in the future.

On other matters, I understand that an FO has recently resigned looking for greener pastures.

If anyone is doing an interview, or has done one recently, I certainly would like to get your impressions, as I am sure many others will.

Cheers (hic!)

just to clarify Drunkens post

most of the MAN based crew spent MORE then 60 days in HKG.
so no tax reclaim!!

521

By my estimations then as a newbie on the quoted £45,900, HK tax equates to a fair amount.

Somebody please reassure me my maths is as crap as I hope it is and that it's nowhere near as bad as this?

On another note, no pension was mentioned - is that the case?

*edited to account for poor maths!*

NG

this is the HKG tax website, fill in the numbers and you know your amount

http://www.ird.gov.hk/eng/ese/ind_stc.htm

btw did they quote you that starting salary figure??

Thanks for that. Thankfully the allowances make a big difference and my liability would be significantly less.

My typo - I believe £45,900 was the quoted start salary (I've edited my post accordingly)

As I said in an earlier post, whilst I appreciate it may be cack compared to what you're used to at Dragonair, to some it may still sound worthwhile - it's all relative I suppose.

£45,900 is the starting salary.

As for pension, there is none! We currently receive an annual gratuity (payable after 3 years) of 10% of salary. This is also taxed so will end up being 6%.

norman et al,
sorry to butt in here as a CX big brother but I think it would be handy to know some tax stuff.

First thing...hkg 'provisional' tax. In oz, we call our tax PAYE...pay as you earn. I am sure the UK has the same thing but with a different name. So lets say you joined a company, in the UK, on April 1st and you were going to earn X pounds per year. If your tax owing for the entire Apr 1st to Mar 31st tax was Y, how much of Y would you have paid by Jan 1st....about 75%. Well despite scaremongering, that is exactly how it works it hkg. You end up paying tax on money you have already earnt. So for people that complain of huge tax bills after a year or two, its because they haven't being paying any tax at all for those 2 years.
In summary, you wont have to pay tax on any money you haven't already physcially got in your pocket already!

Second thing...you almost never get double taxed. I can only speak from antipodean experience but since our law(tax law) is completely based on UK law, I am almost certain it applies.
Lets keep it simple...hkg and UK tax people may think you are a dual resident. As such you have to pay tax in both countries. Almost all countries have an agreement that allows the main country to tax first then the secondary country. So, in australian english, if hkg decides you live there first, you pay your 16% tax. After that, mother england decides you should pay Z% of your gross salary to mr brown(is he still there?). BUT, you get to reduce that payment by what you have already paid to HKG. So you are no worse off than if you were ONLY a resident in UK. If, for argument sake, you were in HKG less than 60 days, you wouldnt have to pay hkg tax, but you would still have to pay Z% of your gross salary to UK IRD. So you pay the HKIRD 0, since less than 60days, then pay UK taxman Z% of gross salary less hkg paid tax!!!!!!
So at the end of the day you pay the tax of the highest country you are resident of.

To summarise.

In HKG, by the time you pay tax you will already have been paid the income...ie it is the same as a time lag PAYE
The total tax you pay over two countries will almost always be less than or equal to tax payable in the highest taxing country.

clear as mud?

NC, seems like you have not followed the latest..... All sounds logic but that's just about to change thanks to the 49ers court case which woke up the UK IRD....

So, HKG tax, yes. UK tax, yes that as well..... Than after the year it's up to you to get it back....... (All if you are NON Uk resident or PART if you are..)

Not the rules, not normal etc but that is the way it is going per October 1st as it stands now....

Cheers

Glad this was finally sorted, tax is so... taxing : )
 

Thanks for that summary, it makes sense that that is the way it would work. I can't imagine that you have to pay tax twice. Has anyone taken this to a specialist or is this just rumours about double taxing?
I'm in the uk now, but if I was getting double taxed I'd just get a mail box in a different country, list that as my main residence n keep a "holiday" home in the UK. Seems to work for the FR contractors...
Another thing, if an F/O got a tax claim for $380k that should be a good thing, if it's true he must be making a !!!!!load of money! (hope he's been saving some!)

I give up.............

I work here.... All my colleagues WORK here...... And we are not to know...

Ah well good luck then....

ta ta

Dragon, I was posting at the same time at you so I never saw your latest post before I posted, but I've changed my original post to reflect what you were saying...

dragon,
wow, that is draconian!
As I said, not current with these UK changes but I can tell you that in oz it was similar in that you had to pay FULL oz tax and then claim back money paid to hkg IRD. I would be surprised if it doesn't end up exactly the same in this case. The UK would be flying(no pun intended) in the face of international double taxation convention if hkg tax was not reclaimable. I think the US system is also similar to what I am describing.
Time will tell....

PAYE is called PAYE in the UK too.

When I was a KA feighter F/O based in the UK and living in the UK, I paid HK tax. My UK tax bill (paid retrospectively then) had the HK tax paid in that year deducted. I didn't have to front up UK tax or pay double tax.

The difference from Oct is that the company will have to deduct PAYE and pay it direct to the UK Inland Revenue. Whether this will have the HK element deducted is the question being asked now.

Wake Up !!!!
 

It is pointless talking about what happened in the past.
It is pointless talking about want happens in Australia.
It is pointless talking in tax language.

THE POINT IS.
From 1st Oct 2007 : Those based in UK will have UK PAYE removed from their salary at source, in other words they will never see, touch or taste that money, it goes straight from Cathay or Dragonair to the pocket of the UK taxman.
Also :
The employee must pay Hong Kong Tax, roughly 17% of salary.
Those are the facts.

Some may be able to claim the Hong Kong tax back later, perhaps if they spend less than 60 days in 1 year and 120 in two years ,they can. In mucho years in Hong Kong I have never got it back. Also if you live in another tax system and pay tax there you may be able to claim some or all the HK tax back. Basically if you want to know go to a tax lawyer/advisor/accountant.

Those who live in the UK, will have to pay the paye. Those who live outside the UK MAY be able to get a no tax code, or at least claim it back if they meet non-resident status. The rules for non-residency are very strict and get stricter all the time.

Following is an example for a married FO living in uk starting on a salary of 45,900 as quoted.Figures from listen to the taxman.com.

Salary ......................45.900.
Tax Free Allowances.... 5,225.
PAYE........................ 9,774.
National Insurance...... 3,371.
Total Deductions........13,145. (all gone in tax)
Net Salary................ 32,755.

Then the HKG tax 17% /45,900 is 7803stg leaves you with a net salary of 24,592, or 2,079 a month. Until you can claim back you HKG tax if you live in the UK. Also there are severe penelties for not paying HK tax on the due dates.

Cash Flow problems or what.

even if?
 

Even if KA payed the best money in the world. Why would you come to KA? you will have no life... no life no wife!

Pollution
Crap Rosters
No compensation for risking your life on the roads in the "amazing" China
Medical cover - Rubbish
Pay - Rubbish
etc... all the stuff you have read before...

Go somewhere else... anywhere....


:yuk:

... and no pension.

Have you got an idea of what a 2-year HKG tax represents in £, or € for a non-UK resident? Myself I'm livin' in the "stinkin' cheese eater" country, the country where we do raise frogs!;)
I'm scheduled for an interview with KA for the MAN freighter base, and if it works and if I elect to work for them I consider continueing to live in France and commuting to MAN.
And here in France, tax level is ugly also....
Dom

"inmates"

Love it!

"the grass is always greener" TIL YOU HAVE TO MOW IT!!!! Big mistake believing the "Bull" sold at my interview! Bottom line as an F/O with a family you Break even at best! Then add the rosters, management, :ugh: life style, expense of HK and the toxic air and this is not a good job and just about anything is better than this!

From todays Fairfax press in Australia originally from Financial Times Asia:

Expats steer clear of Hong Kong air
Marc Moncrief
March 12, 2007



Photo: AP
Something in the air: smog pervades Hong Kong Disneyland.

POLLUTION is chasing professionals out of Hong Kong and could undermine the financial centre's prospects, according to the editor of the Financial Times Asia edition.

FT Asia editor Victor Mallet said many of Hong Kong's financial heavyweights had begun to look elsewhere for better places to work and raise children.

"Some investment bankers, fund managers, hedge fund managers and others who are mobile are already beginning in some cases to move from Hong Kong — say, to Singapore — for the sake of their families," Mr Mallet said.

A study released in September by human resources firm Hudson showed air pollution was making it difficult for 35 per cent of businesses to attract talent to Hong Kong.

Forty-four per cent of executives said expatriate employees were leaving Hong Kong companies because of air pollution. The bulk of those who left — 34 per cent — relocated to Singapore, while 21 per cent came to Australia.

To attract talent, companies were offering higher wages or better housing allowances to expatriates.

Hong Kong is east Asia's premier financial services centre, but its air is among the dirtiest in the world — far dirtier than other well-known smog-afflicted cities such as Los Angeles or Tokyo.

Much of the money stoking China's expansion enters via Hong Kong, making the city's health key to the world's growth engine.

Last week Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told the country's annual parliamentary gathering that China must become greener — even if that means reining in economic growth.

China's economy grew 10.7 per cent last year, but Mr Wen said the country should try to slow that rate to 8 per cent.

"We must make energy saving, decreased energy consumption, reduced emission of pollutants and intensive use of land the breakthrough point and main fulcrum for accelerating economic restructuring and changing the pattern of economic growth," Mr Wen said.

But despite the rhetoric, China's carbon emissions are expected to increase to nearly three times 2003 levels by 2030. FT Asia's Mr Mallet said Chinese internal politics would have to change for Mr Wen's words to bring action.

"You know the old saying about China; "The mountains are high and the emperor is far away.' " Mr Mallet said. "That applies to environmental policy and investment policy as much as anything else."

http://geobay.com/a3f259

3
Dirty Lungs
Probationary PPRuNer

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 3

From terradaily.com....

Hong Kong Pollution Leaves Tourists Choking


Hong Kong at night.
by Staff Writers
Hong Kong (AFP) Mar 20, 2006
Green activists said Sunday that Hong Kong's multi-billion dollar tourism industry was at risk after a survey found half the visitors to the city had complained of the worsening air pollution.

Friends of the Earth Hong Kong said the poll of tour guides also found that one in ten tourists suffered pollution-linked health problems while visiting the semi-autonomous southern Chinese territory.
The poll of more than 150 tour guides and agents who accompanied overseas and mainland Chinese tourists in Hong Kong also found that 40 percent of visitors were aware of the city's pollution problems before arriving. "Hong Kong's lucrative tourism business, its international image and its citizens' health are at risk from the pollution in this city," said Edwin Lau, Friends of the Earth Hong Kong coordinator.
"Matters have got to a terrible state in a very quick time," Lau added, citing an study that found Hong Kong Airport recorded one day of smog-related poor visibility in every 3.5 days last year, up from one in eight in 2002.
Last week smog levels rose to such dangerously high levels that the government was forced to warn people with breathing or heart problems to stay indoors.
Visibility also plummeted, blocking out the city's famous high-rise views and reducing visibility in the busy harbour to less than a kilometer.
The government has said most of the pollution rolls in from mainland China's heavily industrialised Pearl River delta region, which has seen huge economic growth in the past decade.
However, Friends of the Earth Hong Kong and local campaigners Clear the Air say local power producers are also major culprits.
"The pollution is not 'coming down from China'," said Annelise Connell, chairperson of Clear The Air, in a statement. "The sulphur dioxide levels are really bad ... which shows that our own power plants are involved in regional pollution," she added.
Lau said Hong Kong's two major power plants, which use a high level of polluting coal, and the city's bus companies, which rely on vehicles with poor emissions controls, were the major sources of pollution. Tourism last year brought in a record 22 million visitors.


If you are thinking of moving here (especially with a family), then educate yourself. A good place to start: www.cleartheair.com.hk

No pay rise since 2001
None coming
Join now you will have 200 f/o's ahead of you for command in HKG
No A/C on order for HKG + young demograph of current captains = long long wait for command.
15.7 HKD to the pound

It will be interesting to see who joins from the latest batch of interviews in UK

Dont Do It!
 

I'm thinking it means... what sort of crazy people they will be! I mean after reading this why in the name of God would you possibly join KA...? :hmm:

Apparently only 10 out of 23 pitched up for their interviews in London last week. All of whom I'm sure were high calibre candidates. ;)

High calibre & unable to access PPRuNe I suspect. A few more fail to turn up for the free type rating, can't be far away from the 'walk in' interview the FA's get.

Airamerica, appreciate you are chasing information, these guys are giving it to you. Mate, its a pretty long bow to call these people who are leaving or complaining about the air quality greenies! We are talking about Merryl Lynch pulling out of hong kong and china, and moving all their money and resources offshore, and advising strongly that their clients do the same. We are talking about stock brokers, commodity traders and investment bankers, the Gordon Geckos of the world deciding it is not a place they want to invest or live.

All the tree hugging rainbow warriors have long gone. We are talking about the "who cares, as long as there is a buck to be made" money mercenary crowd pulling out... Big difference.

Maybe watch the movie wall street, then if you think that these people have the environment as their number one priority, then brand them as greenies. And yes, i did note you brand yourself as one... Peace Brother! :)

What is the 1st day screening in LGW about?Need help for the next week "visit".Thanks.

Airamerica, totally agree with you... Very few leaving, often refered to here as the golden handcuffs... The money is good compared to elsewhere, but not that much better, at 16 to 1, FOs earn less than 4000 pounds a month, lifestyle and rostering far worse than any of the low cost carriers with a rostering agreement. With no aircraft on order, and no one really leaving, what do you think that will do to time to command? Housing is better than cx so's and fo's, worse than cx captains. Schooling covers the absolute basic minimum you would want for your children, nothing more, public (government) school equivalent. You get that for free in UK, AUS or US anyway.

Hkg dollar is pegged to the US, and headed south against just about every other currency on earth. Housing scheme lets you live in something that makes council flats from the 60s seem spacious, but that is hkgs property market, not dragons fault. Yes, it seems generous that they would offer it, but your entire salary wouldn't cover a decent rent if they didnt offer it, so who would come here for that?

Many realise that the golden handcuffs are made from 24 carat fools gold. Good bunch of line pilots though. Dont make the mistake management does, just because they arent leaving, doesnt mean they arent looking around. Like anywhere though, some love it, some hate it, most are somewhere between the 2.