Are we starting flights to Iraq now?:} :} :}

Back on the topic
 

I know we can do DEFO (Hong Kong). Could some one please explain how they are recruiting direct to a base.
Or is it the simple answer of, lets break the contract.

I've just been given a start date as a 330 FO Sydney base early next year.

I'm rejecting the offer.

All the best guys. Enjoy.

Hi evyjet,

Congratulations on being successful with CX. Not an easy thing to do.

I do not know of your background but it is encouraging to hear pilots standing up to employers for better conditions.

If this was all or some of the reason for rejecting the offer walk proudly my friend.

Well done :ok:

Evyjet - Direct entry FO on A330 based in SYD on current conditions sounds like a reasonable offer to me. Without wishing to pry too much, what has turned you away?

Perhaps CP dude you do not understand the difference between paying your fair share and getting a free ride. Those of us who are in the AOA have paid for the priviledge of voting on the issues. Those who are not do not have the right to vote on anything the company negotiates with the AOA. It is our subs that pay for the arrangement and therefore we get to vote and negotiate. If you are really concerned and want to vote THEN JOIN THE AOA. If not form your own group and see how you make out.

Errr as in the M. G. case ? Not sure what you mean. Whatever you mean it takes funds to take the Co. to court. Guess where the funds come from....SUBS. So with no (or less than 100%) representation how much money is available to protect ALL CX pilots contracts ?

To change the way a vote turns out you need to educate people. You need to get involved. You need to go to meetings use the web site and motivate your friends. All of which is not happening even now at a time when there are some major changes coming down the pipe. If you want to analyse how the dynamics of a vote work you have to look a little deeper than you are currently looking. It is not a case of 700 people deciding for 2000+. It is also not the case that the minority of the AOA is deciding for the majority. Out of 900+ voting members we averaged 700+ on the vote. That means that 22% did not vote. Presumably these people are intelligent enough to know the percentages required to pass a vote and therefore (here is the big point of my rant) they decide what impact they want to have on the vote. I'll explain...to vote means that you are getting one vote for the issue you support (majority or minority) to abstain or to not vote means you lend power (or a vote) to the minority. This is because it now requires more votes to achieve the %50 of total OR the 65% of voting. That is not to say that abstaining is not a choice you should make, on the contrary an abstention means something, it means that you were on the fence, that you could go either way or that you were too confused or overwhelmed to decide. All of which are good indications for both the company and the AOA to move forward after the vote. To not vote tells us nothing, except that you were happy to leave the vote in the capable hands of the rest of the AOA body.

So to sum up. By not being in the AOA you say "I am happy for you to pay and support the structure by which you determine my contract, I do not want to be involved..". By being in the AOA and not voting you say "I am happy to support the minority vote".

So when you use words like "Majority" and "Minority" you have to take all of the above in to context.

Congrats if you read all this dribble

FG

Hey EVYjet...we have a friend in common...SR in Sth Korea. He said you had knocked the job back but he didn't say what you were going to do instead! I quite like visiting the sandpit but have to say I don't think I could live there for long so I can't blame you guys for seeking greener pastures! Plus it would be hard to go back from 4bars to 2!

Truckmasters
In the DEFO deal(that was voted down) I think the company weren't allowed to put any DEFOs in HKG for a few years. So without the deal they can do it anytime. The savings are to be had on basings...no housing, no education etc. Back in 99 a few management guys did some number crunching and worked out that it took about 2 years for an SO to make up in salary/housing etc what he cost in then subsequentely being upgraded to FO versus a DEFO. So with 3-4 years as an SO the company saves lots.

BUT....for the forseeable future it is capacity constrained in the training department. So obviously an FO for 10years takes less training than an SO for 4 followed by FO for 6. So I believe they are going to do the oz trips with 2FOs and any other trips they can. Ideally we would have no SOs but apparently there are not enough landings available to keep that many FOs current.

So to answer your question, yes they can and no they aren't breaking any agreement. They will have to pay bypass pay to any eligible SO. Now what exactly defines eligible nowadays is beyond me. If there are say 50DEFOs then there should be 50 SOs on bypass pay in HKG...assuming they are all 'eligible'!

Howdy Five Green, your post came up as I was writing my previous!

I disagree on your assessment of the non voters. I regularly choose NOT to vote because I don't care which way the vote goes regardless of archaic 2/3rds rules...and I was once a very active GC member. I have spoken to 2 people who didn't vote on the RP07 issue...I can assure you their IQs were quite high...but they were absolutely undecided and they really didn't care(not me....I have a low IQ and I did vote;-). If they had "abstained" it wouldn't have helped in either case!

I do strongly agree with you on this....
for whatever historical reasons, the company has chosen to negotiate with the HKAOA as the representative body for the aircrew. I think in those days, ex AOA GC guys went into management..now they become cat B;-) I digress...this has been the case for 14 years. If you don't like what is happening pay your 1.25% to vote. The only guys who really have a reasonable gripe about this are the ASL guys...the FEs in particular, who couldn't join due age etc. The rest of the guys should put up or shut up!

All S/O’s will be “Grade B” and only Grade A is eligible for upgrade. All S/O will not be suitable for promotion. This will invoke clause 6.2 of the COS. As per the COS, by pass will be paid to all S/O as per clause 10.5.

This will eliminate the bypass pay for Second Officers. We have been doing this for years with the First Officers and it has saved Us a large amount of By Pass pay.

Only We and the candidate appreciates who is in each Category. This way we keep the pilot group in the dark on suitability and the reasons for unsuitability. We don’t give any group the numbers for by pass pay which gives us deniability.

We don’t hear of too many pilots boasting about their by-pass pay because their are not many. We make sure of it.

We do enjoy our work particularly when we can take advantage of the pilot group, it only demoralizes them more.

The more the Review Board saves, the more our bonuses and less to the employees particularly the pilots.:ok:

The Management

What if I'm paying my fair share and don't like the ride? A majority of voters voted for RP07 but it didn't pass. What if all 2000+ pilots had a chance to vote? I'm saying the process is flawed and I would like to see a change!

My post was in referrence to a comparison of Think of AOA membership like being a citizen of a democracy AND being registered to vote.

In principle, I am not happy with a process that allows 700 pilots to vote concerning the contracts of 2000+ pilots. It's just not right!:=

cpdude

If you have a master plan to convince the 1000 CX pilots that aren’t AOA members to join and vote, good luck. Until then the company has said it will only negotiate with the AOA. This effectively means the 1000 CX pilots that are AOA members will decide the future of the 1000 pilots that aren’t because they have elected not to be members. It is their right not to be a part of the negotiation and voting process just as it is mine to be part of it. Do I like that the AOA membership only consists of about 50% of the pilot body? No. An enormous amount of time and energy has been put in by the AOA committee to increase membership over the last 4-5 years. There has been some success but only time will tell how successful they will eventually be.

A good start would be to allow ALL PILOTS to join the AOA, ASL or CX.;)

cpdude

ASL isn't ideal but quite frankly is a drop in the ocean in the who scheme of things. I would like to know what you would do to encourage the other 90%+ that aren't members to join the AOA because to be honest I have no idea what else could be done that isn't already being done?

Man, pilots are the stingy-est group of people I know.

Just pay the damn fees and get over it! We are not talking major fees here. I don't care if you disagree with policy, or don't like the president. The fact that you can vote is enough for me. Also as important, the fact that you get extra insurance coverage and other "in-case-!!!!t" benefits.

A lot of the guys I have talked to just haven't joined because they really don't give a damn. If that is the case, then you deserve what you get and have no right to complain about how it is handed to you.

So please stop arguing about stupid little percentages and dumb-ass excuses for not voting. You sound like a bunch of whinners arguing about pennies when it comes time to pay the check at a restaurant. :yuk:

And make sure you give a buck to the driver on the overnights (I can't believe I actually have to tell people that!):ugh: Even the cabin crew at my previous job would tip the van driver. And they where only making 17 USD/hour! :yuk:

Sqwak7700 I agree.

Advertise! Advertise the benefits! I still every now and then speak to a union member that doesn't know what kind of income protection they have as a standard benefit with the AOA. Non-members don't have a clue about it!

Flyers, posters and BBQ's will bring many in!:ok:

...and every drop counts!:)

Sure...guilt them into it...that will work...NOT!:D

I could care less if they join it or not. I'm just tired of them whinning about not wanting the AOA to represent them wanting to pay for a "broken" union. You know why it is broken?? Because people like you just don't give a damn and many don't join. So which came first?? The chiken or the egg?

What kind of message do you think the company would get if membership all of a sudden jumped through the roof? You think NR would still be pushing that" you should join the union" line?

I hope these whinners don't join. I'm glad I'm in and my friends are in, and we vote and think alike, that is why they are my friends. I'll keep voting for what I like and you can just keep getting what I decide you should get. I really don't care if you like it or not. :} :} :} :} :} :}

Rant complete, before take-off checklist.

Don't underestimate the number of whiners in the AOA. They are everywhere!:suspect:

RTP squared
 

Unbelievable ! CPDude has brought into question the validity of an AOA vote. That is what prompted the replies like that of sqk7700. It would seem to me that CPDude and those that think like him/her are the ones whining.

Join the AOA if you want any control over which way your contract goes.

If not just keep quiet and accept what you are too cheap to participate in.