Size.....you missed the joke if you didn't get the reference to those names my friend.

gliderboy

From a totally outside perspective - and yes prepared to be flameed - KA seems to have trouble in retaining pilots. A couple of years ago it seemed like a good deal but the hours you guys work combined with the autocratic culture seems to have a detrimental effect.

Thus I hear annecdotally of people leaving for other carriers, ie UK guys coming back to Lo-Co's.

By the way, standing on the other side (wrt housing prices) you can't blame the company for external factors such as the housing market variances.

Cheers

BB

PS Yep I've just got in from the pub...:ok:

Again a freighter service to Europe cancelled due crew shortage!
No need to say anymore.

That's one of the reason's why I left...

... and partly why I left too. :ugh:

Dragon can never be a happy place for pilots.

pilots come from too diverse a range of backgrounds , experience,
cultures and personal situations whom can never be totally represented by a DPA which does the best that it can in challenging local mangement comprised of inept managers at best all the way down to a plain clothes ex military dinosaur.

Unfortuneatly this problem seems to be the last of Dragons concerns at the moment

Judging from the replies on this thread the command upgrade pass rate must be quite low in KA. What some of you need to realise is that the spoon feeding days of the Sabena, SAS, or Swiss and the like are all over. No one is going to take you by the hand and teach you how to be an airline captain. You have your 5000+ hrs experience and it is entirely up to you to demonstrate your command ability to the company.

There is no perfect job in Aviation and as far as I am concerned Dragon is still one of the best jobs around.

If you lot are not happy come back to Europe and join the likes of Thompson, Volare or whatever flying over 1000 hrs a year for about 3000 euros a month.

The demise of Dragonair is an on going process, brought about by not one isolated factor, but a steady stream of incursions upon peoples daily ability to perform in their job. The erosion of the work force and its ideology is all too apparent. Airline accidents (and corporate ones) are not a product of one simple misplaced action, but a whole string of ill judged decisions resulting in a final tragic event.

The demise of Dragonair started in earnest about 3 years ago. Dragonair was originally a job for the good old boys, well-paid, low flying hours, and most importantly holding the company in a reasonably high esteem. Oh how a few mis guided placements and corporate ideologies can have irreversible effects.

Dragonair strives for leadership from its captains but is leaderless as a company. Flight operations demand a very high standard from its pilots, but a manager holding no formal managerial qualifications or interpersonal skills is at the helm. Dragonair training is based on a pilot having extensive knowledge of SOPs and significant proven ability, but has training managers who have significant violations of SOPs when, and if, they fly.Within the last year we have had two significant overspeeds from a training manager who was no doubt berating his trainee on some esoteric point of knowledge hidden deep in the FCOM. Another head of training has had two recent fainting episodes, resulting from him running the training department from his hospital bed for 6 months. How ridiculous.

But I still have not got to the meat and bones of the problems engulfing expatriate employees of Dragonair at the moment. Basically Dragonair have a loyal and committed pilot force. But they abuse this constantly. Dragonair plead they have not two pennies to rub together, but continue corporate wastage on a scale that would be criminal if it were not so comical. After the SARs episode 2 years ago, aircraft were ordered to expand Dragonair out of its niche into the region. The board 2 weeks ago decided that Sydney was not such a good idea and lets expand into err... China! So now we have ETOPS aircraft, with full IFE, operating 1h55min sectors to Shanghai 16 times per day. Ever heard of all your eggs in one basket?

I¡¯m sick of all the bull!!!! in KA. From constantly changing SOPs that suit the whims of the moment, to the constant bitching about our contracts. We have an anti personnel department, full of snide looks whenever you have a simple question of point about the confusion way your finances are handled. We have a CEO committed to the Cathay board, a GMO committed to the CEO and his bonus. We have an unlivable lifestyle, changing work patterns, an ops center that is in disarray and overnight patterns based on impossible expectations. We operate into cities with smoggy visibilities not more than 2000m for 6 months a year. Inhumane pollution levels in Hong Kong are affecting our kids and personal lives. How many guys have been divorced or separated in the last few years about their deteriorating lifestyles?

I could go on how our CEO said we were all family and asked us to donate a month¡¯s salary to help out during SARS. Thank you they said six months later, but we have some rather important expansion to do, so sorry, you aint getting it back. Yes I¡¯m a sucker a looser a fool and a retard who should just accept his lot or clear off home. But i'm not laying down just yet, thank you. Corporate ideologies change like markets and currencies. Its just can I waste my life waiting for the next up cycle?

That is lamentable. It would be laughable but for the fact that it is true. You didn't mention Manager Personnel. I think that person has done a lot to alienate the pilots. :ugh:

More to add. to send back the # leased A/C it will cost us.
$us 7.5 mil each now that cost cutting

Mong's, 7.5M to return a 10 year old 30,000+ hr A330- they're only worth 50M each now so 15% of the hull value seems a little excessive. Having said that I have no doubt that someone has probably recieved a bonus over this little cost cutting exercise. I suggest they shut the place down- that will really cut costs (& I'd like a bonus for the idea please).

As for the Personnel Manager, if her boss knew how much she really cost the company through the pilot group response to her 'cost cutting' exercises, she would promptly be out the door. An enterprise where accountants have risen well beyond their station in life. Cheers,

From where I sit, Sizematters, it is evident that non-core expansion will suit a Dragonair model under Cathay's wing. Sub-continent and Far East Asia being bandied about obviously.

Both companies are short of pilots, but relative to each groups numbers, Dragonair is well positioned for rapid career path leaving junior Cathay brethren floundering - relatively of course. Not that this will be much of a concern to all members of the divided Cathay pilot group.

This leads into why change or bemoan the command upgrade system? Does it not offer a degree of protectionism for the current KA group?

If, and we are talking a few years away yet, the unlikely scenario arises where junior Cathay pilots have access to KA Commands, the failure rate will be horrendous. With infrequency of sectors, no China exposure and the inexperienced background many of the ranks spawn from, only those with a good core set of skills will have likely success at first attempt.

Besides, there is nothing gained, despite nervous wind ups, in having an aligned or unified CX/KA pilot group. It will remain seperated! Despite the rantings of Cathay pilots.

Follow the follow me,

"NO CHINA EXPOSURE"

What a load of baw-locks

You're clearly from the school of " you've got to be an astronaut to fly in China"

Mate try a jumpseat on a daylight Europe flight.

Virtually RVSM everywhere, The Alps as always, max Xwinds regularly and lots of CAT2/3 this time of the year and plenty of pax problems.

And dont start getting all flapped out about Typhoons.I can assure you there's plenty of wx in Europe that you guys would name after a girl.

Mate you're living and operating in a microcosm of reality

To long in the pollution and humidity and now you're starting to beleive your own bullsh1t

OK Girls !!!
 

Enough of the unnecessary slanging matches !!!:}

Where is this so called MASS- RESIGNATION. I heard only 2 F/O's; both from the UK, one who never stopped whinging and another that was well behind the drag curve ! No Loss !!! :ok:

CX & KA look for the best they can find, logical no ? Depends what you percieve as your career path & the future of the 2 companies....

We must all appplaud the safety standards we maintain with the sub-standard leadership pervading so lets get on with doing the best we can in trying times !!

FLY SAFE !!!:O

FLAP 5

If you have to go back to 1993, 12 years , to find a difficult aspect of operating in China then that says it all.

Grow up and get with it

Vikena

Lan Kwai Wanchai

To say one was behind the drag curve. Who do you think you are!! You are obviously another one who thinks you have the gift.
Its not rocket science and you dont need to be a rocket scientist to do it. So dont build yourself up by dragging others down.
The 2 guys have a heap of experience and were/are great to fly with.
In fact what a C... of a thing to say.
The KA system just F..Ks with some guys.
And as for the guy who whinges. Well who doesnt and at least he had the balls to do something about it. Full credit to him.
He has more credit than any one else who utters a negative word about KA.
'behind the drag curve' --- YOU D..K!!

Nice one peanutz. best post Ive read in ages. There is just so much arogant bull!!!! out there.

Nice one fellah

Flap 5 – you typify the mentality that prevails in KA. MOVE ON – its not 1993 anymore. China is no different from any other third world country these days.

“The experienced KA captain recognised the chinese numbers” – so basically it was an understanding of Chinese that saved the day. Well, I know stuff all Chinese and have always passed my linecheck – I didn’t know it was a requirement to speak another language.

KA have re written the books on operating a glass jet that is not very demanding to fly into a country that was once tricky but is no longer.

PS – there is no mass exodus from KA despite the fact that its full of macho hero chest beating wankers.

Hear hear peanutz,

Flap5 and follow me are clearly listening to the TW and JC tongue sh1te

You fly into France and French controllers talk to french pilots in guess what language...French.This is approved ICAO practice.

So dont start getting all racist just because Chinese controllers speak Chinese.

What a pair of toss pots.

I'm embarrassed to be in the same profession as them

And how dare you presume that one pilot lacks ability or capability based on rumour

You are a cack head

followed by:

This is how wars start!:*

Nothing at all racist in that first statement, not even close.

Peanutz and Vikena Please make your points without getting into personal abuse and dragging in, quite disingenuously, the subject of racism.
This is a good thread with lots of interesting opinion from both sides, so let's just keep it like that please. Thanks. BE

No offence intended Blue Eagle

But sometimes stronger terms are required to make a point to people who don't have the benefit of having a broader more rounded experience base, yet are still prepared to wax lyrical as if they know it all.

I trust you understand

vikena

Vikena,

When you are in a hole stop digging! :hmm:

Dear dear me, what a load of infantile ranting.

Perhaps it was one of you 2 who lost the plot the other morning when Virgin 201 called the KA A320 a "mini-bus".

Bravo to the ATC'er who simply responded "Miaow".

Enough said.....time to lay of the whiskey before you kids post!

They just reckon they are big cheeses! :p

OK, back to the thread topic or it gets closed, you can carry on your in fighting via email etc.

Hey Blue eagle

What happened to my post

Probably didn't satisfy the non-abusive, in good taste, relevant and on topic criteria.

Blue Eagle

If dispersal of certain people related to Aviation in HK isnt relevant to Mass Resignation then I dont know what is.

I did complement British pilots and some Ozzie ones .

And i think that comment is good taste

So post my original submission for heaven's sake

notkahouse

Try again notkahouse. This time keep it factual and leave out or re-word any opinion that could be construed by one group or another as abusive.
Banter and good humour are always appreciated but not thinly veiled side-swipes at other factions who post on PPRuNe too.

Back to the original posting.

Have 40 pilots resigned yet?

Blue Eagle,

I resent the abusive nature of albasari's post about training in Dragonair

Maybe if I re worded my opinion of how painful some pilots are to fly with you might have let my post stay

notkahouse

notkahouse
 

Albashari88's post is not abusive to any particular other poster on this forum, just highly critical of the KA training system. It is now up to you and your colleagues to rebut his accusations if you believe them to be incorrect, just don't start hurling abuse at him, only what he says, play the argument not the player.

By all means go ahead and state how painful some pilots are to fly with, just try and keep it general so that individuals cannot be easily recognised from your post and don't get into racial issues.

Unlike some of the people posting I have been through the KA command course and find myself a little bemused by some of the comments posted here.

First of all there was plenty of training (unassesed, no grading) which inlcuded Pre-command workshops, PCE LT, CT 2, Sim LOFTS midway through the course and if you should require it one additional block of line training is guarranteed at Ct 3 or Ct 4.

Before getting to the final sim check at CT 5 I had been taken through most major system scenarios, inlcuding some personal requests.

At some point you have to produce the goods and you are checked at Ct 5/6.

There are some carriers that have a command course which appears to be a box ticking exercise and providing you are in the Chief Pilots good books you get promoted, others have a marathon course which takes 6 months to complete.

In my opinion KA have found a good balance whilst coping with rapid expansion and maintaining a high standard of operation on the line. It has always been reassuring knowing that the guy or gal sitting in the left or right seat is not released to line unless they deserve to be there!

To me it is disturbing to see this anominous character assasination of a bunch of trainers who have been working like dogs over the last couple of years helping all of us get to grips with the Airbus and in many cases promoted to captains within 2-3 years of joining the company.

I am proud to have a command with Dragonair and found the guys conducting my training to be helpful and motivated.

Many of the comments on this thread are just totally B%ll S%#T, it is time for a bit of reality!

However if you want to discuss the HKG air pollution or apparent lack of direction the company seems to have lately, well that is another story...........

True, no mass resignations yet but has anyone found out what Jade Cargo are offering, they've got a full page add in Flight for -400 drivers. They are a serious outfit with 6 x new 747-400 ERFs on order, joint venture LH and Shenzen airlines. Should give TW a run for his money when he tries to recruit for ours! Experienced Captains and FOs not easy to find. Indians offering more and more money too. Our classics now 2 crews short and one command course postponed cos not enough FOs. New FOs with experience reluctant to join the classic fleet cos now no progression forecast. I hear our 330s not crewed either with flights cancelled.
If we don't make the most of the next few months to improve and defend our package then we never will!

A330's not being crewed is a self inflicted injury for KA. :hmm:

Hainan Airlines buys 51% of CR Airways
 

This week Hainan bought 51%of CR Airways so that they have access to a HK AOC and the ultimately the HK/China market. They have many new aircraft on the way and plan to base 737 NG's in HK, and plan to take on Dragonair and CX in China.

So now is the time KA management to Act! Lets use our position and go forward and expand and have some direction instead of sitting in the doldrums!

I am heading up the Peak for a beer.....the Peak Tram Driver.

Expecting KA managment to be proactive in influencing the future of the airline is like a doctor expecting a constipated patient to be able to give a stool sample.

I'd love to know what specific commercial aviation mgment training those ex military fossils in KA have

The same offerings as the aforementioned patient I expect

I suspect the 'ex military fossils' are too busy keeping their noses clean with respect to the chinese element of management, specifically Manager Personnel and the COO. They have seen what happens to pilots who get on the wrong side of them. :hmm:

notkahouse

How naive can you be? 'Military fossils' there may be, but in common with most airlines, commercial planning and decisions are made by...err... the CEO and the Commercial Department !!!

Have a good one.

Neppie :cool: