Kubota,

Feedback is good and as I said earlier, I would rather talk than fight. But, are the only options all or nothing? What ever happened to a compromise?

As for "but your flying about 50 hours without credit is not only immoral on their part, it's also stupid on yours. It's NOT ACCEPTABLE". What do you suggest I do? Phone in sick? Not a chance, I could never be so dishonest.

As for "industry standard" I ask who's standard? North America, I've covered that one earlier. Then Europe's or the Middle East because you certainly don't mean the standard in Asia because we are already well above standard on that front.

I'm not saying it's perfect but we’re trying to attract flies here with vinegar. These people do not react well to gorilla tactics and we don't have the law on our side. Get it?

IMHO CPDUDE. . :) :) :)

Well “Propsrforboats” – if or when I get in Beers on me , it’s been my life long goal….

For the people who are that mentally disturbed that they have to sit at home on a PC and make Scab lists , you better turn to your own SO’s for their full names and contact details…………you wait and see , not just some but a lot of guys WILL take the upgrades BELIEVE ME…….

Even your own drinking buddies will , you’ll be surprised……people stay quiet and keep a low profile but they will accept the chance for an upgrade with open arms, because it’s their lively hood your dealing with.

Imagine how much of a tosser you’d feel like sitting in front of the fleet captain and the entourage after enjoying some nice..”tea and bickies” and then staring them in the eye and saying …..NO I DON’T WANT AN UPGRADE because of the treatment of the 49’ers. Very few will have the gall to go through with such a tall order. WAIT AND SEE.

So don’t just sit back and try to deter recruitment for outsiders applying for SO positions because even your own peers have had a gut full of the ongoing situation.

IF YOUR OWN PEERS ARE WILLING TO GO AHEAD AND TAKE UPGRADES – HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US NOT TO ACCEPT A POSITIONS AS AN SO???

No I am not management I’m a regional driver from OZ so stick that in your pipe and smoke it……..

There is no other Job that will provide YOU with the lifestyle , security , pay and progression that YOU can get through Cathay.

Some of you are obviously not cut out for the EXPAT LIFESTYLE , so get a base elsewhere and move home and take a chill pill.

How can I comment you say? Well I’ve lived in foreign countries myself and to be honest I had a blast of a time and have never looked back.

So like adult men and not school yard bullies – GET twenty of your finest Cathay Captains organise a meeting with management and find a COMPROMISE for this problem and resolve it.

The guys that were hardly done by for no undue reason should be given a second chance and the ones which have a “shady” past should be dealt with in the appropriate manner. END OF STORY.

I DON’T LIKE TO MAKE WAVES BUT IT’S TIME TO SAY WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS THINKING…….

VINCE.. . . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Id love to have a career with Cathay scab or no scab. So be it, it certainly beats flying crapy planes with crapy pay that is G.A. Sometimes you have to do whats best for yourself. I think that the lucky guys and gals that did it tough and made it into Cathay are not the ones that are miserable and complaining and bitching all the time. Think about it. Dont lose yourselves in the panoramic picture!!! I wish everyone in, and trying to get into Cathay all the best for the future. Its ashame that there are so many selfish and cold-hearted people in this world. . .You guys really have it made at Cathay. . . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

This is becoming a " wannabe " section. Maybe most of you young grasshoppers that don't know their a** from page 4 should keep their obvious lack of knowledge and move on. Most of you don't sound like CX material or should I say the CX of old. Advice: wait for things to settle down and make an informed decision if you are lucky enough to have the opportunity. Beefing off with heresay and speculation is a waste of everyone's time. The ban is valid and ongoing despite the opposition. Be patient. I'm out.

With regard to upgrading and the ban I think that the ban effects new hires only. To be in a position to take an upgrade then take it.

The ban is a hiring ban not an upgrade ban as I recall. Take the upgrade and the company will soon be needing SO's, FO's.

Oh by the way - hope progress is made soon on the ban front, it's a tough situation to be in and I for one wouldn't want to confront it but maybe I will in the future. Anyway hope it works out for all parties concerned and please start the hiring again soon.

Vince,

You can obviously see what none of us in CX can see. So help us with one thing;

Lets say you get your 20 Captains in a meeting with 'management' and it becomes obvious that 'management' are happy with the status quo. They like the idea that rostering practices, housing, medical, education benefits can be changed/deleted on their whim and with a pay review due in July all they need to know from your 20 Captains is how many guys/gals need to be fired before we all agree their new (reduced)pay structure.

What do you say we do then; bend over and take it?

No problem if we elect to bend over (we had it coming I hear you say), however do you think there is any possibility that managers of other airlines will not gain encouragement from the events in HKG (if they haven't already)?

Grateful for your views.

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]</p>

Liam

I understand that you are rightly distressed, by the attacks from the Management, on your terms and conditions, salaries and rosters. . .The sacking of the 49ers was a terrible blow for union men everywhere(BTW is there a list of names on the net).. .But sadly, the fact is, unless you are prepared to strike. Not sick-out, but picket-lines the lot, then nobody in the rest of the world will take you seriously.. .The company is prepared to play hard ball, but instead, the union talks about saftey and contract compliance. The company is able to follow its current line and the only people to lose out are the pilots.. .As for the Recruitment Ban, this would appear to be another own goal. People will take up CX jobs when things move on and live with the consequences. Those CX Pilots who are unable to live with this will become yesterdays men and as we have seen in politics before, become redundant as a voice for the entire workforce.. .Just out of interest, I contacted IFALPA recently. They new little of the Recruitment Ban, dodged making comments on its legitimacy and sounded distant on the whole matter, they quickly refering me to the AOA in HK. . .Do they know something you don't?

The reason the HKAOA cannot find success is that they continue to alienate themselves by cutting out several different groups of potential supporters.

They refuse to let the ASL pilots join because they took their jobs away and are now considered "scabs" by many members. Many ASL pilots signed over to Cathay Freighters in Jan 2000 and gave up years of seniority among their own group to be with Cathay Pacific and they are still looked at as the black sheep. The newer Freighter pilots, although members of Cathay Pacific and on the same seniority list as all the other Cathay Pilots, are often referred to as ASL and not welcomed by many mainline pilots. And, now the new joiners have been called scabs.

I know many have left the HKAOA from the freighter division as they feel they are not supported or even welcomed by the other members. They could have almost 100% participation of the 1700+ workforce but because of their on going discrimination and favoritism they continue to lose members and blacklist others and probably have less than 60% representation at this time. It's a great little boys club for the Hong Kong based pilots but a credible union, I think not!

Of course this is IMHO. CPDUDE. . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Sure looks that way from the outside cpdude, but remember that this behaviour has also been manifested at airline mergers in the states, when two union groups, or one union and non union group are merged....strange lot they are for sure...done lots of good for us pilots for sure over the years, but seems they could do a little better if they got a grasp of the whole pix before launching their crusades against management, and percieved threats from outside pilot groups, who just may be ready to support their cause...if given the chance to

OK gentlemen..... .Those stories about . ."the ban or not the ban" . ."why the ban? . ."so the ban.. " . ."well the ban," . ."do you know that the ban.." . .have been on those topics for more than six months, ABSOLUTELY THE SAME - which means, if I read the inputs from yesterday 16 Feb and compare them with those of september, I will see no difference !

Couls you introduce something new please about your nice company and environment ?

Hey Recceguy,

Just a quick review of your previous posts and with only 3 to your credit, you obviously have a real problem.

Here is one of your quotes. "so you get the answer: I don't care about any ban !!! I choose in life the people I obey to!"

Sounds like you’re the typical loner, hotshot anti-establishment type person that CRM courses were designed for. Not a chance you would get through a modern day interview with human resource people.

Just a little advice, learn to think about others and become part of a team.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

cpdude,

Recceguy is a wind-up merchant; don't fall for it.

The points you raise about the Freighter Fleet are often said. I however, don't hold a lot stock in those views. No one held a gun to our heads when we signed across to Veta; we knew the seniority we were "giving up". Guys forget or are unaware that the AOA has got further agreements from the company to ensure that freighter folks are not disadvantaged by being held back on the freighter. Whether or not the company can now be held to those agreements are another matter!

Turning to the issue of the ban, glad that someone has contacted IFALPA as it is their ban. It would seem that those concerned by ban should pressure IFALPA either directly, or through their present union, to have the ban either lifted or some form of closure drawn on the ban; coming on here and "whinging" and falling prey to the lurking wind-up merchants does little for your cause or future careers.

Liam G. a short while ago, mentioned the "bend over and take it" routine....and if it was noticed by other airline managements.. .The short answer is...yes, and it has been going on with many carriers in the middle east for years...nothing new really.. .With the labor laws in HKG the way they are, the AOA guys have no other option....other than to move on to another employer.. .And, considering their many hardline attitudes...who would want them?

I too have also discussed this ban with IFALPA, they explained it is there from request by the AOA, and thier laws say they cannot question the request, so it is actually in the AOAs court to not be hypocrites and not to pass the blame to IFALPA as they are just carrying out orders.

The person i spoke to is very concerned by the situation and wants to call for an ammendment to the constitution allowing IFALPA to question the requests. I dont believe he is in a position to do too much, so all the guys reading this not liking the hypocricy of the AOA, give your local IFALPA a call and lets try to get them to start questioning the ethics of the AOA and how they are using us as cheap pawns. The majority of us trying to get into CX are fully paid ALPA members after all, so who is representing our side of the argument.

An example...I read some minutes from one of the AOA meetings and when John Findly was asked why dont the training captains just resign from there training positions he answered.... we cannot exepect them to make such a sacrifice...HYPOCRITE!!!!!

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: flyingkiwi ]

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: flyingkiwi ]</p>

Flyingkiwi,

Good effort in getting hold of IFALPA. If memory serves me correctly the guy you need to correspond with is one the Vice Presidents. I think his name is Capt.Dolan and he is in charge of Union activities. He visited HKG in early August.

The argument you and others lead regarding the dual standards of the AOA is compelling, however I feel you make a grave error in singling out the Training Staff. You may not be aware that CX has previously encountered the Training Staffs flexing their muscles. The company's response then and now would be to insist the trainer resigns from not only the Training Department, but the company. The company has also been shrewd enough to ensure that a suitable balance of numbers exists between AOA and non-AOA staff in this department. I believe you do a disservice to yoiur cause by pointing your finger at any one group, as your argument is surely that all members of IFALPA unions should not participate in the recruitment/upgrade program at CX; that way everyone makes a sacrifice and no individual takes a benefit. Conversely, if everyone is not prepared to make that sacrifice, then no one group should be forced to.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]</p>

So the ban is still enforced ?

In two words...pathetic hypocrites <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Thanks for your reply Liam, its nice to get a resonable discussion going. So how do we get an across the board fair playing field for ALL ALPA members involved... any ideas?

and remember folks contact your nearest IFALPA rep and lets get this sorted instead of sitting here moaning about the injustice of it all.

Oh James, as we have hi-jacked your thread, to let you know when i had my interview I had 3500hrs, with 700 turbine command.

Good luck

flyingkiwi,

I don't think aviation is a level playing field; it's more to do with right place-right time. I also think us pilots are being relegated from players on the field to waterboys on the bench! (but that's another topic)

However, if you want to jack your end of the playing field up a bit I would contact and then write to the aforementioned Vice-President of IFALPA and put forward your arguments. I would also copy the letter to your local union and hope they endorse it. At least that way, should you take a job with CX and subsequently leave, you may be able to get yourself sprung from a blacklist in your home country. (I stress the word may)

I note there is no ban on interviews so if you haven't had your interview in HKG yet, grab any interview opportunities and listen to the views of as many people as you can; particularly those putting forward ideas contrary to your own. Go home and mull it over and if you are offered a job I am sure you will know what to do.

However, what I would not do is place much stock in some of the info on this website as the situation in CX and HKG is not as reflected here.

Finally, before anyone posts; I have absolutely no idea as to recruiting and interview policies of CX and to infer anything from this post to the contrary would be a huge error.

Good Luck

Flying Kiwi,

I confess to being out of date, as it was a few years ago, but guess what? The last time I had dealings with the local IFALPA rep. he was also a big geezer in the HKAOA.

Well meant advice to consult the local IFALPA rep, I have no doubt, but possibly not too fruitful.

An anecdote.

Many years ago, when Air Hong Kong was still independant of CX, AHK had its own union, and received a rather pompous invitation to affiliate with the HK AOA. One of the "privileges" of this affiliation was the responsibility to support, with industrial action, if so mandated, any action that the AOA might take against CX management.

When the AHK union (LDACA if I recall correctly) enquired if the AOA would similarly take industrial action in the event of an LDACA dispute with AHK management, no-one was surpised when the AOA indignantly replied that of course they could not jeopardise the careers of their memnbers by involving them in a dispute by which they were not directly affected.

Of course the players were different, and the AOA did not then have the benefit of the advice of a someone who, if rumours are correct, was the number two man of the leader of the most spectacularly unsuccessful industrial action ever undertaken in the UK, if not the world.

It is fashionable on this site, as on most FG sites, to put down the CX aspirants. How many times have you seen slurs implying that the poster of a message was bitter because clearly he was not as good as the CX pilot insulting him, or threatening him with a lifetime ban with any airline whose employees were in any way associated with IFALPA, if he dared to accept a job with CX in spite of the AOA ban?

I sat back for a moment and wondered why I bothered to make this long winded post.

I was lucky. The Queen trained me and it didn't cost me a penny. I even got paid. But I vaguely remember how as a youth how keen I was to be a pilot and was amazed when I made it. If you want something that much, you don't allow some supercillious ignorant bully to get in your way.

So to the job seekers, I say if you want a job with CX, and are offered it, take it.

So there is a sort of a hiring ban at Cathay Pacific ?

Dont worry Recceguy, as they wont recruit until all aircraft are back in the air and by then lets hope bothsides have resolved their respective issues.

thanks for all that guys,

sounds like a lot of you need to head down to the wanchai district.......................

nothing can really be that bad?!?! no airline, and company for that fact is perfect. you take the good with the bad and get on with the job, which i think cx as a company does really well. i learnt a valuable lesson reasontly which is that a company will do what ever THEY WANT / NEED for their bottom line, nd their is not much anyone can do about it. you can either accept it move on..

i read a book a few yeare ago; Beyond Lion Rock. from that day on the only airline i wanted to fly for was cx. i had approach plates of the rwy13igs, and was, to say the least pissed off when they decommissioned that airfield, as im sure a lot of you were as well. would have given my left testicle, and still would, to shoot an approach in there in crap weather... magical. what a place to live in as well.

just hope that one day im given the opportunity to join the long and distinguised rank of cx.....

on a final note, i recently lost my job due to company being taken over. our pilots had long and protracted negotionations with management, and still are. and to what avail??? i left, and moved on... maybe not the best move given the current aviation climate but we cannot win against management.

wish you guys all the best with it and hope it sorts its self out soon.

regards.

ps have com 2 regularly tuned into the high level freqs and love to hear those cx position reports while im cruising 30 odd thousand feet below....

http://www.ifalpa.org/images/lower_logo_v2.gif

IFALPA Recruitment Ban

The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a. .ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on. .behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).

The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment. .commencing on or after 9 th October 2001.

The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s. .firing 53 pilots in July 2001. These pilots, with two exceptions, were terminated for no. .reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the. .contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The ban is to maximise the. .pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of. .replacement pilots reduces the likelihood of a successful resolution to the dispute.

Until further notice the acceptance of a contract of employment as a pilot with any of. .the above-mentioned companies will result in that pilot having his name placed on a. .list to be compiled by the HKAOA. The list will be circulated to all Member. .Associations (MA) of IFALPA for information and any action that MA may deem. .required in accordance with its own constitution or resolutions.

Any pilot whose name is placed on this list will be ineligible to become a member of. .the HKAOA. Such ban will be for life. Furthermore, pilots who accept employment. .whilst the recruitment ban is in effect will be made unwelcome by the membership of. .the HKAOA.

The HKAOA will not provide support for a listed pilot in any circumstances whereby it. .would normally act on behalf of a pilot. This includes Accident and Incident. .investigations, Discipline and Grievance procedures, legal representation in foreign. .countries, etc.

Looks like the folks ot the HKAOA...(hong-kong angry-old-assholes) are once again showing their ignorance

Plusonehundred, wake up and read this post before you speak, your post is about 8 months too late!!

<a href="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020221/dcth035_1.html" target="_blank">Appeal to Unided Nations over firing of 51 CX pilots</a> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Very smart !

United Nations have nothing more important to do nowadays.... so no doubt this matter will quickly be solved.

I heard there was a ban somewhere ?

PlusHundred,

As you seem to have a handle on the HKAOA/IFALPA end of things, can you explain why the ban is only in place to stop recruitment and not for upgrades. Surely the 53 are a lost cause because members of the HKAOA have accepted upgrades and taken the positions of those unfortunate 53.

I would have thought that the only possible answer here would be to stop all movement/employment until the 53 were re-instated.

Frankg is caught on the horns of a moral dilemma, which self-interest prevents him from addressing. What is 'normal' or mandated to IFALPA is irrelevant. If a recruitment ban is morally justified, then so is an upgrade ban. The new recruit and the FO getting his command are taking advantage of the same set of circumstances. Frankg gives further insight, if any were needed, of the convoluted thinking of union activists when questions of morality are raised. Hiding behind concepts such as 'mandate' simply re-states the obvious; the Emperor has no clothes on.

Frankg is caught on the horns of a moral dilemma, which self-interest prevents him from addressing. What is 'normal' or mandated to IFALPA is irrelevant. If a recruitment ban is morally justified, then so is an upgrade ban. The new recruit and the FO getting his command are taking advantage of the same set of circumstances. Frankg gives further insight, if any were needed, of the convoluted thinking of union activists when questions of morality are raised. Hiding behind concepts such as 'mandate' simply re-states the obvious; the Emperor has no clothes on.

Thought you might be an FO. However, if you are not, disregard the reference to self-interest. That just leaves the moral dilemma facing the AOA and its acolytes.

A question

Do CX (or any of the airlines in the region) have expat Ops people. Having been made redundant again. .I'm looking for something new.

rgds

Well then Tarek Nor, have AirAtlanta pi@@ed on your boots once again? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

No 411A

I escaped from there over a year ago. :)

The company I have been working for have just. .changed hands, and most of the staff have been. .terminated. Aside from that I spend a fair . .amount of time in Asia and the Far East, and . .would be happy to make that a more permanent . .arrangement. Unless of course you'd like me to. .come and help with your L10's in the USA. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Tarek Nor ]</p>

I just read that the ban was going to be terminated, because of over-focusing the minds of the involved crew-members. . .So in order to enable them to speak about something else (anything, politics, sport, sex, wildife conservation in Northern Okavango) the whole idea of the recruitment ban was going to be discarded.

frankg, my life experience tells me before long you will personally be severely disappointed by the actions of various Officers in trusted positions. When political expedience enters the scene (and the UN is a wholly political body) you will be surprised at what some people can be forced to do.

IMHO (with the emphasis on HUMBLE) the HKAOA has long been beating a dead horse and is straying some distance from today's reality - as are you. In today's job market the airline that employs you can - with some difficulty, I would admit - fire the lot of you and find replacements in no time flat, whether you like it or not. Cathay is known as a plum employer and I am sure qualified and current pilots would leave their present Sad Sack employers and jump the fence in the twinkling of an eye, ban or no ban, if it looked like permanent work.

You can only take any cause just so far. I would suggest that limit is approaching, however slowly/rapidly, and I would HUMBLY suggest that those who cherish their jobs at CX should take a serious look at how much they appreciate their careers in this time of severe pilot job shortages... once laid off from CX they then carry a red stamp on their forehead for future employers.

Perhaps it is time to revisit reality and either cut losses or make a deal, my friend.

And at the very least you might consider cutting back on the rhetoric against those who are entitled to express their own opinions on this forum - you are not in the hallowed halls of the HKAOA here.

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: ipanema ]</p>

Frankg and others...

Remember, you are not in USA or Australia or Canada, but in China, in case you have forgotten it.. .When all of you have been duely kicked out by your management and replaced by brasilian, argentinian, belgian and french pilots (and I forget the russians) it will be time for you to moan... and for the rest of the world to smile.

And please, don't label your contradictors so easily as "wannabees" or "management plants" (I know I'm not, but it belongs to me) it just shows up the intellectual weakness of your positions...

recce guy,. . Surprised you omitted to mention mainland Chinese pilots; close at hand very competent these days,and cheap too.