Its now mid 2022 fellows....not a lot of point in quoting an outdated 2021 document to make your case.

The only reason that I became involved in this thread was the very silly post (below) from Oli777 which was a continuation of the calculated factious malevolent nonsense posted here by the usual 4 or 5 suspects aimed solely at misleading others re Cathay .

"Swire 101, lease aircraft because interest rates are low, oops... now interest rates are through the roof and repayments cost a fortune. Oh well, in 24 days time the music stops and the board members won't have seats to sit on."

I don't understand the line of your argument,V.

You say people don't want to see the bad news, the ugly side, the negative, the lack of pilots if demand comes back.

Actually, your prediction is the overly optimistic one. I want a pilot shortage. Lack of manpower is the only chance for contract improvements. Plus it would mean more productivity hours.

The negative view is the opposite, no shortage.

Quiet a bit of delusional material you put forward.

First of all, what contract?! Cathay pilots are not working under a "contract" since Jan. 2021. Cos 18 states in the FIRST paragraph, that the company can change anything they want, anytime they want at their sole discretion. Well that is by definition not a contract. A contract is a 2 way street, binding and not changeable by one party in it's entirety at their sole discretion. And by having proven via legal precedence in hk that an employment "contract" which is what we had, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on, especially when signed by cathay pacific, and can be canceled overnight replaced by a "company policy" document which you're told to sign in 2 weeks or you're fired, they can no longer even pretend to offer an employment contract which anyone with any reason and logic will believe. So get a dictionary and educate yourself on what the word "contract" means. You're no longer working under one, and never will again in Hong Kong, and certainly never again at cathay pacific. Only an idiot will not laugh out loud when cathay pacific utters the word "contract" now.

If you're simply referring to the increasing of your pay regarding productivity pay, it will only ever be temporarily until the next hiccup when cathay will take it back down to wherever they wish to, at their sole discretion. Leaving you to look and feel like a fool for not having taken a job elsewhere when you could even at lower pay but stable and under an enforceable "contract".

And when hoping productivity will take your pay back to previous rate, remember your housing and children's education allowance, medical coverage have also been cut over 50% (for which you now have to pay out of pocket or downgrade accordingly). All that will have to be raised too or company business flourishing once again will not trickle down to you in a meaningful way.
so no, productivity pay will not bring back what you had before, while cathay will have the profits it had before while paying you 1/3 housing and children's education allowance, which you'll either pay out of pocket or downgrade your life and your family's life accordingly.

But like I said, if you don't have any other choice and if cathay goes down it will mean a career disaster for you because you can't get a job flying anywhere else, you'll continue to wear your rose colored glasses. Because if you take them off your situation is so utterly depressing and hopeless with an employer that has zero employer credibility left for it's employees making it completely impossible to plan any future, financially or professionally for it's pilots.

These are the subjects relevant to existance of a pilot shortage in hk, or not. It makes zero jack sh!t difference if cathay is leasing or owning how many of its aircraft. Zero.

Cathay's loss of credibility is not something any management group can ever fix in the future. It's been proven an employment contract signed in hk and especially by cathay pacific isn't worth the toilet paper it's signed on and that it never was all these decades. Who in yhe right mind will risk their career and financial stability to work for cathay again, unless they're either very desperate or very naive? (I didn't want to say stupid)
Even the most well intentioned management group which might exist in some dreamy future will be laughed at when asking for trust and credibility from its employees at Cathay. What was done by this management group can never be undone. It's over. Even of cathay prospers in the future, you as a cathay employees never will. Cathay's success or not is no longer relevant to you. You won't be allowed to share that success, only the pain every time they f'kkk it up. What else do they have to do to make that clear to you?

It has been time to leave as soon as you can for some time now. This show is over. The extremely high attrition numbers and the utter fIlure to recruit pilots despite having launched a recruitment campaign many months ago is a clear sign. Leave when you can.

14 years FO, my seniority goes up 3-5 spots a week, I am assuming they are mostly CNs leaving.
Where is my command course?
Again are we really short or critically short ?

Even for guys currently out of a job, there are better options to apply to at the moment than CX:ugh:

100% correct V, you summed it up perfectly. Now STW will come on here quoting how great this weeks pay rates compare to some LCC in Asia and that CX will be flush with high quality applicants.

Finally, interesting and largely constructive comments here.
It is not all important to me that some do not agree with my stance that was to stop the rot and the nonsense that was being posted here.
My view is that if Cathay need to pay more and or improve conditions they will do so. They are a commercial organisation that ultimately answers to the shareholders.
Already they offer above market norm terms and conditions and had not timely decisive actions been taken the airline would have closed. Understandably these necessary actions caused great hurt and anger but were necessary for survival and over 6000 largely Hong Kong employees still having jobs.

The “Wumao” are active of late !
The above market norm term used here was from the benchmarking done some 6 years back when CX renumeration was compared to a basket number of regional (note not legacy carrier) airlines. Strongly rumored that Australian regional airline Air North being one of them.(what a joke if verified true)
The timely action spoken of saved nothing and paled into insignificance as to the costs of having aircraft non/under utilized and idle/parked at Alice Springs so please stop with the smokescreens.
The 8th Floor saw an opportunity to slash and burn and it has brought a world class airline to it’s knees, to the extent that the prized Diamond Club members now shun CX for competitor airlines.

Occum’s Razor.

Rice power: Opinions differ but facts are facts and a fact is that the airline industry in general can no longer afford to provide the benefits or pay pilots at the at previous levels. Apart from the need to be competitive the Cathay packages worth well upwards of HK$4 million were clearly out of step with the then current industry levels and needed to change. It can perhaps be reasonably argued that the cuts went unnecessarily far and some believe that they were treated harshly but change was unavoidable and escalated by the pandemic and Hong Kong's handling of it.
Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life. Cathay is a business not a charity and needs to be completive to survive and If salary and benefits need to be raised to hold and attract a stable pilot workforce that is what will happen. .

Another management ******. If Airlines can’t pay the same packages as before, punters can’t afford to fly, and the number of airlines and aircraft must decrease.

Brown Nose :I'm afraid that your logic is rather beyond my understanding.
However I agree that the number of VIABLE airlines has decreased and in the short term is likely to decrease further.
This is very unlikely however to include any from the Cathay group but it is looking as though the small remaining rump Hong Kong Airlines is very probably terminal this time.

You wish to talk facts?
Okay, how about no-one on B scale was earning “well upwards of 4 mill”, even the rare few with BTC allowances
Renumeration for United/Delta/American and BA senior Captains are freely available on the internet for you to ponder over.
Really appreciate the BS lecture though.

Very old China hand. I served Cathay for over 30 years. For three decades, I had a front row seat to a never ending stream of cost efficiencies which manifested themselves in two ways: cuts to pay and benefits and cuts to operational expenses.

Pilot pay and benefits were constantly on the chopping block and cut with the regularity of an atomic clock. As lower pay packages attracted fewer and fewer real pilots recruitment standards were reduced. All the while, senior management would proclaim that no change to the legendary “Cathay Standard” was occurring. In fact, even long after experienced pilots were no longer being hired and untrained pilots with zero flight time were instead being hired off the street, senior Cathay managers continued to pretend that they were still able to attract top pilot talent. It was bizarre.

The ultimate effect was obvious to those on the flight deck. There were cuts to minimum training requirements, cuts to crew experience levels, cuts to minimum crewing levels; and once stringent flight time limitations were being manipulated. To top it all off was the rostering system that used flight time limits as performance targets, rather than “only when necessary” as intended by the law governing the limitations. It became alarming to witness the constantly diminishing standard on the flight deck. Multiple letters from the Cathay trainers, who went on the record to warn management about real safety concerns, were ignored; or the safety risks assessed as manageable. I know, because I had a hand in writing them.

In your last post you said, “Given all of the circumstances Cathay overall treated its staff far better than did most of its major competitors but unavoidably there were causalities and some will never get over what they perceive as Cathay ruining their lifestyle and prospects while the vast majority have accepted the unavoidable and got on with life.”

You write with sincerity and I have no doubt that you are firm in your convictions as a business man, and let me say that I heard the same sentiment each time cuts were imposed. It was the same rationale used to fire 49 pilots in 2001. A seminal act of cruelty that would not have been tolerated in any other civilized business environment. All the casualties that you speak of were real people. People with families, obligations, and years and years of sweat equity spent honing their pilot skills. People with everything invested in Cathay and in Hong Kong. By any modern business or human standard you don’t just get to rationalize writing people off as an unnecessary business expense in a manner as if their lives didn’t matter. Certainly not since Dickens.

And this is what I’m trying to get across to you. Yes hard business decisions are sometimes necessary. But from my perspective, Cathay was never able to carry them out with any real finesse, or with a human touch. Instead changes were always heavy handed and arbitrarily imposed with an axe. With seemingly little thought or concern to the pain and misery it caused to the very people that once made Cathay the great airline it was. You may disagree, but this is what it felt like to those of us on the receiving end.

I choose to resign 18 months ago, after 30 years and nearing my retirement age of 65. Once again, with the finesse of a slap across the face, I was given three choices: Endure another in a long series of pay cuts by signing a new “contract”; be fired; or resign. I asked if I could continue for a few months until normal retirement on my current conditions but was flatly refused. So I choose Option 3 and resigned. I gave three months notice, packed up my family and left. A clerk oversaw my release and walked me to the door. Just another example of the lack of human touch, the lack of people skills, I referred to earlier.

In any case, do with my words as you please. It is with great sadness that the once legendary Cathay Pacific Airways has fallen into its current state.. I wish you luck in its rebuilding. Hopefully it will be successful with better people management skills.

Timely action? Respectable businesses and management take timely action on a temporary basis and do not cut to the bone forever in such a depraved and cynical manner.

Raven11. Thank you for a post that clearly explains the near depravity of the Swire management ethos. As a reminder to those who were not at CX at the time, the 49er incident resulted in the DEATHS of three people (two pilots, and the suicide of the wife of one of them). To all of those "star chamber" members at the time, don't think that your actions will not count against you in the next life. What you did to those people and their families should live in infamy. Shame on every one of you who participated. Truly one of the most detestable acts i've ever witnessed.

CX have now hit almost 30 years since their first 'Commitment Day" (when the first evidence of the company's attack against their pilots appeared). To all of the Swire and CX managers involved over that period of time: good job. ruined airline. ruined lives.

You couldn't make this up if you were a fiction writer.

Raven11. Spot on. Well-balanced and about as close to “the truth” as any individual can get to, at least the truth as I perceive it.

VOCH,

What a load of BS. If you really are a VOCH you certainly didn't work for CX for the last 30 years.:mad:

You militant guys certainly have thin skins and seemingly need to resort to abusive personal attacks on those who express reasoned but different views !
For the record I have several friends who for many years enjoyed packages recently (last say 5/7 years) of upwards of HK$4 million including benefits
It would perhaps be interesting to many to know what other top airlines with decent modern fleets are offering better stable and readily available packages at your current level working in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.

Between the HK Government restrictions at outports (yes, we’re still prisoners and the HK government loves having this power) and Swire / Cathay’s approach, hellbent on destroying the pilot body both professionally and personally, unless you want to spend the rest of your life in misery and have a company and an over zealous government control every aspect of your life then by all means apply!

It's all very well claiming that Cathay's salary packages were out of step with industry norms, but that's like comparing apples with oranges. Cathay Pacific only ever provided expat benefits because it could not source sufficient pilots in Hong Kong. It had to attract expat pilots and therefore needed to provide housing and education allowances to offset the cost of living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Without those benefits, a Cathay pilot's after tax salary is no better than many other major airlines, yet the Cathay pilot living in Hong Kong has a much higher cost of living than pilots living elsewhere. If you were an expat pilot considering a job in Hong Kong, or an expat pilot living in Hong Kong and about to face a massive reduction in benefits, what would you do in a world where there are other opportunities?

Think you may have to review that in the light of the place being reduced to the status of a 4 th tier Chinese police state.

I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.

What office on the third floor do you inhabit veryoldchinahand...?

VOCH, the point you’re missing is that you, me, and every other pilot employed are HUMANS, some with little HUMANS, and older HUMANS (probably older than you) that have human needs and require adequate levels of compensation. Hire robots, pay them once and work them forever if Cathay is “just a business”. And “looking after their employees”? Riding them like mules? Some camps in the ‘40’s did the same to their ‘employees’

MM. Shouting irrelevant nonsense from the distant sidelines as usual.....too hot for the lawn bowling I suppose !

it’s all relevant. And who’s MM?

Papa123 I understand your argument well. Few are older than me and I suggest few have worked harder to make a decent living in Hong Kong.
Judging from your joining date I suspect that you are a young fellow yet to learn that the the world does not owe you a living and making a living in these difficult times actually hard work for less reward than most of us have come to expect. As I presume that you are no way indentured to the airline but do actually work for Cathay I suggest that you get on with things or look for better pastures although these you will agree, I am sure are very difficult to find at the present time.

Papa123 Not wishing to mislead I should make the point above that I am no longer formally working for anyone having reached the vast age where I am no longer considered by some to be competent. But I am still working and they are of course all wrong !

[QUOTE=veryoldchinahand;11273733.....to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
[/QUOTE]

You mean like Cathay Dragon?
They certainly did a good job looking after "is" employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going - indeed better than most!
No other airline could have done it in that way, that's for sure.

Typical China, don’t know who I am how I got here, or what station I’m presently in - but unabashedly offer up ‘life lessons’ from your own perceived sense of superiority. Back to the post - you suggested we ‘get nothing and like it because - just business’. I say no, there is value to our effort - which is currently not being recognized. I didn’t say they OWE me anything, nor I to them.

Are you claiming that, “to a degree”, Cathay is currently offering “very enticing expat packages” to attract pilots? If the current package is so attractive, why are so many pilots leaving for other pastures?

[QUOTE=veryoldchinahand;11273733]I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?UNQUOTE]

Well let’s see shall we ?

A transformation ( in very short order) from a society where free speech was the norm, and our press and civil liberties were the envy of many in Asia, to one where a new security and sedition law means that one can be seized in the night, and shipped over the border for a touch of rough justice, by our Communist overlords. Just for espousing the “wrong” view.
That some of this was accelerated by the riots (and I’m still not fully convinced that much of it was not fomented by our friends over the border to force the issue) is undeniable. That said, the very fact that organized, peaceful demonstrations and marches ( once a hallmark of HK ) have been banned forthwith and forever is yet another sign of heavy handedness, and the destruction of all civil liberties.

Disbandment and effective neutering of all trade Union movements and associations ( again I’d be the first to admit that they were hardly the NUM) but some, such as the MTR Union, offered decent protections.

A farce of an election ( with one sole candidate, remind you of anywhere nearby ? ) for CE. Said candidate a rabid supporter of Beijing and their methods. So an ideal shoe in for for a 4th tier city.

Rapid haemorrhaging of talent.

A society where it is considered the norm to lock up its citizens, including babies and children, in quasi concentration camps in an half arsed attempt to achieve a zero covid policy whilst the rest of the World moves on.

A government that considers it acceptable to allow its Health Dept to mandate effective solitary confinement for its pilot work force, having spent 15 hours in an aluminium/ composite tube, then require them to wear tracking bracelets as though they’re rapists or paedophiles on early release.
And to add insult to injury subject them
to a draconian testing regime for days after. And rinse and repeat. That quite so many individuals have put up with this for quite so long beggars belief and says a fair bit about Stockholm syndrome.

If all the above ( and there are of course more ) are not the very epitomy of life under a CCCP dictatorship, I don’t know what is.

They did look after 8 of the KA employee's. I believe only 6 remain, mostly on the 3rd floor.

The rest of us were thrown out with the trash.

If survival is the basis for your argument VOCH maybe you could have a word with our CEO, Tang concurs, and puts it plainly: “The sur*vivability of Cathay Pacific has never been on my mind.” and while you are, explain to him that a temporary reduction in earnings would probably have been accepted by most.

What you have witnessed VOCH, is a smash and grab, it is a strategy put in place by some senior leaders and it appears to be failing. Will management now need to cover their short?

The value of every company is based largely on its assets. Assets which make profit, for the owners who own stock in that company. Less of those assets or worse shape of those assets result in less profit. The value of the company is what drives the stock price. The shareholders take direct benefit from that above all others, including the employees, which can be labeled as "cost units" or "profit units" depending on the competence of management.

Unhappy, un-taken care of, demoralized, angry, stressed, bankrupt pilots in this case are much less efficient and much less reliable or caring as before. Even that delapitated , demoralized, inefficient work force is declining at an uncomfortable rate without any success of replacing them despite having announced and started a big recruitment drive almost a year ago.

Without this asset which has to be there to operate the other very expensive assets (fleet of aircraft) that asset set also languishes in utter inefficiency. All other assets will be in the same boat, they are as we speak.

Tell me how happy the "shareholders" of this pennystock taco stand are when one of the assets which is impossible to operate the airline without (it's most expensive to attract, train & replace people) are in such terrible shape and such out of control dwindling numbers?

Sure ots all about the owners, called sharehilders. But the stock price is all about the company's value. Value is all about the assets which are necessary to produce profit. In case of an airline, to fly airplanes, enough to be able to maintain market share and perhaps expand market share where profit making opportunities are recognized.

As with any business... fukk your people and you've fukked your profit (shareholders).

Cathay's plan was to be back at 60% operation by September, then 50% by December. Both shut down by manpower planning due to not enough pilots. Can't retrain fast enough to replace pilots on flying fleets fron the non-flying fleet either. As soon as they become current, they leave for another job.

How are you doing shareholders? Enjoying the ride downhill? Enjoy it while it lasts...

Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...

missing. You’ll do another 2 or more years under this circus? For what? The PAY? The TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES. Why so quick to side and equivocate with management direction. You like it better now, those ‘smart’ moves to push Cos18?
sycophant you.

missing. You’ll do another 2 or more years under this circus? For what? The PAY? The TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES. Why so quick to side and equivocate with management direction. You like it better now, those ‘smart’ moves to push Cos18?
sycophant you.

I don't know why I even bother to post here. You lot are all about personal insults while most of you seem unable to sense sarcasm or irony...🤦🏻‍♂️

Anyway - I just pointed out the realities cx and hkg face now. Nothing less nothing more. Do with it what you wish.
I don't like it any more than you do.
And I still fail to see the problem.

pilot shortage is the wet dream of the profession.

missingblade is of course right, as is cx management in their own right.

nobody cares if we are happy, all that matters is how many of us sit in the driver seat and to what cost.