CHAIRMAN CUTTING A DEAL
 

Dear fellow HKAOA Members & Non-Members (as this affects you as well).It would appear a screen shot calling into questions the true motivation of our Chairman has fallen into the public domain. Although the What’s App communication allegedly happened a few months ago, this now has increased importance given that we are soon to be presented a deal for the Membership to vote on under the guise of rule 20.4. This rule is actually being used against the Membership by both the company and those individuals on the GC, who want this deal to be voted in at any cost for their own personal gain. To those on the GC who simply want an extension of ARAPA by another 10 years and the Training Ban lifted so they can become Training Captains, and ultimately get a desk and chair on the third floor – BEWARE.

The Membership is becoming increasingly aware that there are behind the scenes actions being rushed through by certain persuasive members of the Committee, to get a deal done at all costs, irrespective of the communications continually being sent by official HKAOA Communications stating otherwise. Management desperately want the Training Ban gone. We have wasted two years on HPE negotiations to no avail, and now we are negotiating a PEACE CLAUSE whilst two of the original four items – namely HKPA and Pay are being given lip service. Have the FAU been asked to sign a Peace Clause? NO. Why? Because

Management respect them – whilst they laugh at us and our lack of will power to pushback industrially.

Our colleagues at the FAU have negotiated considerable pay rises in under two weeks, whilst we are apparently lowering our negotiating limits or box to help Management avoid any further impasses, as is evident from that screen shot. Fellow HKAOA Members - do not allow certain individuals with their own selfish agenda to destroy your Union and future contracts, by voting in a deal that ties our hand behind our backs for the unforeseeable future. To even be discussing a peace clause is justification alone to say NO to whatever proposal is placed in front of us. This applies regardless of whether it is recommended, not recommended or given an abstain vote by the GC.

Now wonder a previous DFO called us Million Dollar Morons – it’s time to stop being scared of our own shadows and stand up for what is right and just. The world aviation industry is short of good quality trained and experienced air crew, as is evident by our ever increasing resignation rate. This is not 2001 yet they are playing chicken with us, to see if we can blink before the annual profits are announced.

Unfortunately, it now appears there are people within our own Union ranks who are helping Management to try and suck us in again to sign an inferior deal to that which was originally offered in 2016.

Whatever this deal contains – consider what we want as collective group of aviation professionals.

Firstly, do we want viable contracts and a future working environment?

Secondly, do we want a Union that is effective and strong, or an Association that is by name only and is emasculated as an employee representative body.

Consider these two questions in conjunction with this screen shot and draw your own conclusion.

So what's in it for the Chairman and his cronies, I wonder, or perhaps they are compromised? Agreeing to no floor limit in negotiations - because the real negotiations limits failed in so far as the Company is concerned - when the AOA should have walked away and left a demand list on the GMA's desk. Instead DS instructs the NC to do anything, take anything. He needs to be removed. Disgraceful.

You DS, should be ashamed of yourself if this is true and if for any reason a deal worse than TA16 is offered with a BS Peace clause worse than the past clause 7 and you recommend it to the Membership, then you Sir, in my opinion, will be the most despicable Chairman the union has ever had and you can expect a huge exodus of members shortly after. Goal Achieved?

Posting messages mid conversation can be dangerously misleading as it gets taken out of context. This screenshot is in the middle of a conversation. At 938 the question was asked "no floor?". And the response was "no floor best effort". This was clarified in the following messages. At 1002 DSS even says "The box hasn't changed....." So it was clear within 24minutes that nothing had changed. The following messages discuss how to proceed - ie given that HKPA didn't meet the floor, as the rest of the offers would go to a vote the aim was to get the best HKPA offer possible -hence the "No Floor - Best effort" comment. This needed to be clarified due to contradictions between the GFBFA and 20.4. But I will leave that conversation for AOA forums - we really do need to sort them out IMHO.

So I can assure you the 'floor' (ie the minimum acceptable position to even consider taking the offer to the membership for a vote) was in place at all times during negotiations this year. The floor is an absolute minimum - it was reached in three categories but not in one. And in that one that failed to reach the floor - we got our "best effort" offer.

Rule 20.4 was introduced before the GFBFA - they don't work well together which is why the GC tried to get rid of it in 2017. But there was insufficient interest in voting it out - so it remains. And as such the current HKAOA GC is bound to abide by it.

Just so we are 100% clear - the offer on the table reaches the minimum set by the original floor for three out of the four items. And yes I mean "floor" - the minimum. That was all that was achievable given the industrial pressure placed thus far.

As to whether it is a good offer or not - well I will be surprised if anyone gets excited by it. Pretty much like setting a low reserve when selling your house and having the highest bid at your floor. You have a deal - but you are none too excited about it.


Like it or not - 20.4 constrains the GC in its' actions(see below). Then democracy kicks in - is that such a bad thing?


20.4 excerpt.

If those numbers are correct then it is no from me.

Ha ha - exactly.

If it makes you feel any better I am reliably informed the lead negotiator is disliked by the previous GMA, COSDO for sure - and a few others whose noses were put out of joint due to his lack of filter when negotiating.


Whether anyone praises or likes anyone is unimportant - the bottom line is you have your say with a vote. And I am ok with that. I have been here far too long to worry about what might happen - I just deal with what does actually happen.

And for the record - I wanted a pony as my bribe - but didn't get one;-(

It's all about getting the new guys trained and on POS 18. That's the holy grail. A rolling purge who doesn't know any of the past.

CMP's role in this is to figure out how to efficiently staff without basings, and (absent rigs) have maximum availability/flexibility without paying for it.

Indeed Slasher. It's that simple. Pilots bang on about supply and demand as if they are Keynesian economists yet don't get the simplicity that it doesn't make sense to train your own low cost replacement. Well, the KA guys will have a bit of a wake up call to this soon.

Cutting a Deal ??
 

How can you cut a deal without all the pieces of the pie being visible on the table ❓

January should bring the "new" basings "Evaluation & Strategy" from Flt Ops. This fact has been openly promulgated to all crew quite some months ago by ex DFO..

WHAT IS IT ????

Not watching the whole chess board is done at your own peril :eek:

RF was the best and most effective Chairman the HKAOA has ever had by a factor of about triple. Union was dead the moment you voted him out. Remember the PV endorsed bogus candidate GF, designed to take votes away from RF? Remember that?

That is disgraceful.
How dare he visit his family !
Unfortunately the truth is that the filing of the shp claim is not a one man job, but hey don't let that stop you throwing mud


QUOTE=Frogman1484;10336375][/QUOTE]

Firewall,

He was the President at the time, can you explain if he had any responsibilities at all in that position since forgetting SHP is/was a pretty major fu*k up. Kind of think that looking out for the workforce should have been job #1 well before personal crusades...........

I'll admit I had the slim chance of $204K coming my way, which may or may not match your adulation, fawning and general gushing over RF.

Do you not think the membership is owed a simple apology?

probably worth asking why they left the GC, it may not be because of the current leaders. In some cases personal issues arise and it means they no longer have time to serve on the GC

+1

Get a [HKAOA] room please.

I thought I read somewhere that DS et als. came right out of the gate w/ concessions before "negotiations" even began. IIRC he himself revealed that nugget before the POS18 round. That should have set off alarm bells for everyone... He always seems to be radio silent through all of the fires, including now. Not exactly characteristics of a leader....

Surely he meant 3rd floor..........can see him there anytime soon after this........................

Next stop DFO....

Apparently at the Focus Night RL was advising members to vote NO. So the idiots who negotiated the deal are now recommending a NO vote but the general committee is recommending a YES vote. Amateurs.

Ha ha - really? That's what he said?

People hear what they want to.


I think what was said was more along the lines of - if you do nothing, you get a nothing result. We have done nothing but CC and TB for a few years and this is the result - a HKPA offer lower than TA16. So if the intent is to vote no and do nothing for the next 2-3 years, what will the result be? Membership survey indicates that the majority will not ramp things up - yes the vocal 5% here and on forums are willing to - but the silent majority are NOT.

We have around 200TC/STC/BTC. We have lost maybe 20-30% in 3 years. Looking at demographics we are due to lose 11 more over the next two years. So that will reduce training capacity by about 5%. KA have freed up around 38TCs but not sure how many are 330 vs 320? Our training load last year was less than a third of what it was in 2015 - so we have a lot of excess slack in training at this moment. We can more than double the training load in 2019 - I suspect the 2018 under load was much in part due to the 2 SO ops - it would have saved around 130 FO slots for them. Plus we recruited around 100 less than planned.

So will the TB work in time? We need about 50TCC/STCs or so for the minimum level of licensing(though some sims can be done by those over 65). We need around 5 or so to cover RA55/65 departures(CN/FO/SO courses) For attrition we would need maybe 30ish to replace say 100 pilots. We are due to lose around 34 more TC/STC/BTC over the next 5 years so that will reduce their current training capacity by 15%! (again assuming no one leaves the union to join training)

So is the TB the silver bullet everyone assumes?

Focus night
So what was ACTUALLY said was - if it is a yes vote, make it 51% so CX don't think it was over generous - if it is a no vote, make it 95% so they know how unhappy we are. But keep in mind - if you continue to do nothing then nothing is what you will get as it will take years for the TB to bite. You think we will keep the same resignation rate of TCs? Maybe the TCs who resigned are all those that would take the moral high ground of leaving. The rest will be on good overtime. So what rate will we lose TCs in future? What rate will others cross the line?


What was also said at a focus night was - even if the NC and GC were incompetent, the membership get to decide by a democratic vote. So please enjoy your conspiracy theories - they make for fun bar talk. I still haven't got my pony but I am hopeful.

I have a simple question for Numero Cruncher (and the rest of the GC/NC). How could you possibly "recommend" this appalling offer to the membership? Yes, you can present it, but "recommend" it? No credibility left whatsoever. In fact, I suspect you may have killed off the AOA. The recommendation was bad enough, but your constant efforts to justify your decision is only leaving an even more bitter taste in peoples mouths. First we'll vote this monstrosity down, then we'll turf out the current leadership of the AOA.

Ken, MM and I (and many like us) will do what we've always done. Vote our conscience and deal with the outcome. We've rejected the company's proposals (final, according to them) before, and they have come back with more pay and benefits. This is the worst proposal in my career. It's an insult and a shot across the bow's of any career worth having at CX. At this point, I would rather force the issue and determine once and for all whether there is a career at CX or not. Voting "yes" on this monstrosity will only empower the management to strip away the last vestiges of value. So take your childish taunts elsewhere. You sound like a management sycophant.

(and as to MM's question to the GC/NC, yes...how on earth could you "recommend" this sickening proposal?)

Sorry but we need to stop the Bull ****. Numerocruncho is trying to justify why you are getting a piece of crap offer. If your leverage is proportional to the quality of the offer then you are being sold short. One of the duties of your representation is to take responsibility and be accountable. They are tasked with increasing the leverage of the membership and acting in your best interests. Unfortunately since the lame duck Sprinkle Soligo has taken over he has done nothing to escalate CC. In fact he has only worked with the company to provide concessions amongst the pilots, HPE was a prime example where he was committing an astronomical amount of concessions that would have cost you well over a Billion dollars, yes that's with a "B" BILLION. However the GC was not blind to this and realized that there was no way in hell the membership would ever vote for such a pathetic offer and HPE failed miserably costing the AOA millions in the process.

Fast forward to today and now you are presented with another concessionary piece of **** offer which was facilitated by the lame duck Chairman. He has not acted in your best interests and has let the CC strategy weaken as a result. The special levy was meant to be used as a tool to increase the pressure but then it was only used to fill the coffers of the association. When it comes to credibility you would be hard pressed to find any in the leadership. It is rumored that he even lied about resigning from training. Other questions have been raised about his status while on sick leave. Was he compromised and is he fit to lead the 2400 members of the HKAOA?

I would like to see a leader who would not present an offer to the members when it falls significantly short of an acceptable offer.

Another quote that was made at the focus night was from Daryl, he said it takes courage to say yes. How about it takes courage to lead.

So RL please stop trying to spin this crap because deep down you know it is wrong and unacceptable.

Amen. The fish rots from the head.

Amen to the Assassin